Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby Sandy » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:51 pm

I'm still more inclined to believe someone who worked in a place where the anti-missile capacity was designed and constructed than I am with news media reports. Of course, the US government is pretty free with information, but do you really think they are going to disclose information that gives out the capability of the weapons we have? Whatever I read in the media I figure is all of the information they are being given, but it is not all of the information.

The Republicans should be the ones pushing this idea the most, since it was their icon, Ronald Reagan, also known in this particular endeavor as Ronnie RayGun, who came up with the "star wars' Initiative, and devoted massive amounts of taxpayer dollars to the research and development. It was part of his deficit spending plan to stimulate the economy I believe. Surely, with all of the taxpayer dollars that were spent, and the fact that it was a Republican initiative, it ought to work by now, huh?
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby KeithE » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:05 pm

Jim wrote:Trump has no corner on the knowledge of Missile capability, nor do amateur commentators in this forum (i.e., me and everyone else), although common sense is helpful when considering the analogy, a bullet fired to hit another bullet. People who actually believe that could be done—even with the latest bullet-driven technology—with any consistency or in the case of multiple simultaneous events—will hopefully never be any part of the nation's defense-system regarding missiles, never mind the type of warhead. Here are a few other sites with regard to those scientists who actually know where the facts lead:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/coul ... n-missile;
https://thediplomat.com/2017/10/trumps- ... th-korea/;
https://www.wired.com/2017/05/intercept ... ense-test/.


Jim and everyone else,

I’ve been busy all day thus the slow response.

A missile hitting a missile at high closing velocities have occurred 83 times out of 102 flight test attempts since the Missile Defense Agency began in 1999. This is faster than a typical bullet hitting a bullet. Read the link. I’m quoting official unclassified sources. It happened many times before then as well - first in the ICBM class of interceptor was the HOE program in 1984 (after 3 misses)- I worked that. There were at least three intercepts in the ERIS program (1986-2000) also in the long range ICBM class intercepts. During the period 2003-2010, I was one of three people (in fact the most active of the three) in the country designing the progressive set of ICBM class of flight tests utilizing the Ground Based Interceptor (GBI) - not the final say of what would be done, but led the multi-element “Integrated Fight Test Planning Team (IFTPT)” designing the sequence of GBI flight tests for upper management review. I know the issues, the capabilities and the limitations very well. I stand by my claim that “I do know that we have a good chance of intercepting any nuclear ICBM coming from NK”.

I read with bemusement Jim’s take on the articles he supplied. The articles get some things wrong but Jim’s take on them is plain stupid.
The article states that:
What all of these systems have in common is they are theatre ballistic missile defence systems, designed to provide protection against short-, medium- and intermediate-range ballistic missiles.

Intercontinental ballistic missiles, such as the one tested by North Korea this week, fly far too high and fast for these systems to engage with.

is correct but these systems are not designed to work against ICBM (long range) targets. The GMD system (radars, battle manager, interceptors such as the
GBI) is designed for ICBN threats such as those from North Korea. Jim hilariously doesn’t get that point; I say hilariously due to his surety of his pronouncements - (“a snowball in hell has a better chance")

PBS article: This article reaches back to 2002 to quote Phillip Coyle (a critic of Missile Defense) to say ICBM intercepts only works 60% of the time. Things have improved since then and a 60% change is better that a “snowball in hell" anyway. In the IFTPT we dealt with all of Coyles’ complaints and then some more. I do not independently know that 28 more GBIs are being built but have no reason to doubt that. That improves the overall effectiveness of GBI since several GBIs can be launched against an incoming ICBM and the GBI layer is only one of three independent means of taking out an ICBM.

The Diplomat article: Only thing that link said was that it is difficult to be assured the NK denuclearization. Can’t argue with that - more reason for an ICBM missile defense capability! and expanded testing! Perhaps there was another link that has been lost- Jim can you provide?

The Wired article: Best of the 4 articles but overly cynical. Complaints about “scripted tests” are only partially true - the part of guiding a bullet to hit another bullet is not scripted in the slightest. Some sensor representations were scripted (due to expenses) but not in any biased way to take advantage of the system - yet people like Coyle complain. More money for sensor deployments would have satisfied Coyle's concern. The article speaks of 19 tests with about half failing. Truth is 10 of 18 tests (more than half) resulted in an intercept (pretty amazing actually). One test was a target failure not the GBI’s problem. The reasons for some of these failures have been resolved (MDA has learned from failure).

Again I stand by my claim that “I do know that we have a good chance of intercepting any nuclear ICBM coming from NK”. Certainly better than “snowball chance in hell" can do. If Jim thinks my thoughts on these subjects are not as good as “warm spit”, he is just being his curmudgeonly self.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby KeithE » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:36 pm

Sandy wrote:I'm still more inclined to believe someone who worked in a place where the anti-missile capacity was designed and constructed than I am with news media reports. Of course, the US government is pretty free with information, but do you really think they are going to disclose information that gives out the capability of the weapons we have? Whatever I read in the media I figure is all of the information they are being given, but it is not all of the information.

The Republicans should be the ones pushing this idea the most, since it was their icon, Ronald Reagan, also known in this particular endeavor as Ronnie RayGun, who came up with the "star wars' Initiative, and devoted massive amounts of taxpayer dollars to the research and development. It was part of his deficit spending plan to stimulate the economy I believe. Surely, with all of the taxpayer dollars that were spent, and the fact that it was a Republican initiative, it ought to work by now, huh?

Thanks Sandy.

My opinion of Reagan’s 1983 “Strategic Defense Initiative” (aka "Stars Wars”) is that the National Labs (and MIC salespeople) wasted $10Bs (and ten years) on fantasy directed energy systems (lasers, Neutral Particle Beams) that could only work if they were placed close enough the kill an ICBM (or any class of offensive weapons). To do that literally thousands of heavy lift platforms would need to be launched and maintained in space (low earth orbit) so that one of those platforms would be close enough to place enough energy on target to kill that target. The heavy lift launch capability did not exist (still doesn’t) and objects in space would be at least doubled. By 1995, these systems were largely rejected in favor of the older interceptor concepts and the program was given back to Huntsville who was into interceptor-based systems in the 60’s, 70’s , 80’s (still is under the Missile Defense Agency which largely moved to Huntsville’s Redstone Arsenal circa 2000).

Republicans do push these systems (both the interceptor -based and directed energy -based). Democrats support interceptor-based program (although there was a reduction of funding in the early Clinton years after the USSR dissolved).

I'd like to know what is envisioned in this so-called Space Force that Trump is pushing - if it is more Reaganesque directed energy systems for missile defense, i'm against it.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby Sandy » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:31 am

The space force proposal is a diversion. The treatment of the children of illegals, and the lack of any real punch from the North Korea giveaway plan has Trump's and the GOP's numbers tanking, and it has more immediate consequences at the ballot box than it might otherwise have. So there has to be something else to talk about so that the Faux news and the Lamebrain Limbaugh's of radio world have something else to feed to the base.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby KeithE » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:57 am

Sandy wrote:The space force proposal is a diversion. The treatment of the children of illegals, and the lack of any real punch from the North Korea giveaway plan has Trump's and the GOP's numbers tanking, and it has more immediate consequences at the ballot box than it might otherwise have. So there has to be something else to talk about so that the Faux news and the Lamebrain Limbaugh's of radio world have something else to feed to the base.

Diversions galore, I agree. For just one thing, it diverts from the original purpose of this post - misuse of funds in Trump's “charitable” Foundation.
Why the I.R.S. Should Go After Trump

But I am not at all sure that the GOP/Trump numbers are tanking. They should be, but face it Trump’s numbers are up (36.4% in Nov 2017, 42.5% today).
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

Democrats “generic ballot” is still positive (preferred by 6.1% today) but dwindling (it was an average of 8.5% in Feb 2018)
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/2018_generic_congressional_vote-6185.html#polls

So, Sandy, be vigilant against Trumpism (and more traditional GOP rich/corporate favoritism w/o the added Trump nationalism/xenophobia/demagoguery) instead of spouting wishful thinking. It is very trying times for the US. No time for a false bravado.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby Sandy » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:36 pm

The five thirty eight poll is to early to reflect Trump and Session's detention fiasco. North Korea may factor in there somewhere, though I don't see any numbers anywhere from that which would change the trajectory upward.

These aren't good numbers at all, and we'll see where the whole thing goes when this gets factored in.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... es-parents
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/18/politics ... index.html
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/se ... unpopular/
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby KeithE » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:25 am

Sandy wrote:The five thirty eight poll is to early to reflect Trump and Session's detention fiasco. North Korea may factor in there somewhere, though I don't see any numbers anywhere from that which would change the trajectory upward.

These aren't good numbers at all, and we'll see where the whole thing goes when this gets factored in.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... es-parents
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/18/politics ... index.html
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/se ... unpopular/



Latest five thirty eight poll of all polls shows little drop in Trump approval over the “family separation” events (as Sandy calls it -quite appropriately in my view- “Trump and Session's detention fiasco”) which first came to the country’s attention with a NY Times article on June 7.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

As of yesterday Trump approval rating was 41.9%. That is no change in Trump approval from June 7. One can move the vertical dashed line to see whatever date you want as the starting point of this issue. The policy was announced May 7 by Sessions; at that time Trump’s approval was 42.0%. The highest approval raring during this period was 42.7 on May 27.

There is no doubt that progressives/moderates/mothers have been upset by the policies and a mass protests across the country are planned for tomorrow.
over 700 “families-belong-together” protests.

Opinions about Trump are very hardwired. I suspect if Muller comes out with multiple indictments of Trump, that wouldn’t change his approval ratings much. If Trump comes out with some “deal” with Putin to jointly resist NATO, I doubt that would change things that much.

Sad state of affairs.

If I could suggest an approach to mitigate the polarization, I would have a two-group, extended debate in each state (if possible). One group of hardcore Trump supporters (maybe 10 people) and one group of hardcore “progressives” (again 10 people). There would be runners that gather FACTS / DATA and deliver that to the debate. Make them address the major issues. Demand a joint statement periodically (perhaps with majority and dissenting opinions ala SCOTUS). Make those statements public.

That would be a lot cheaper ($$s and lives) than if we have another civil war. I would guess that Trump supporters have more guns.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby Haruo » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:08 am

If there were a danger it could be their family there'd be a whole lot less complacency. Left, right, and indifferent, Christians, Jews and atheists alike, we're all much more inclined to care if it's our own at risk.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby KeithE » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:57 pm

Haruo wrote:If there were a danger it could be their family there'd be a whole lot less complacency. Left, right, and indifferent, Christians, Jews and atheists alike, we're all much more inclined to care if it's our own at risk.

As a white, male, protestant Christian, and relatively rich person, I’m under no threat from a continue Trump administration (as long as I kept my mouth shut at least and closely monitor my 401K).

Altruism (caring about all people or the common good) is a possibility among all classes/races/gender/ethnicities/religions.

I’ve had a discussion with myself back a few months ago- should (1) I become complacent and live the good life to the max, or should (2) I continue to rabble rouse against this President (and more generally GOP’s favoritism to the rich). I decided to do both - advocate for social justice and live the good life (but a little less so, being more generous to social causes).
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby Sandy » Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:50 pm

KeithE wrote:As a white, male, protestant Christian, and relatively rich person, I’m under no threat from a continue Trump administration (as long as I kept my mouth shut at least and closely monitor my 401K).


You might want to keep an eye on that 401K. There will be inevitable consequences from the tarriffs and trade restrictions that have been levied. The effects of that are already starting to push the price of gasoline back up, and the major US automakers are shutting down shifts at numerous plants in anticipation of not being able to sell of excess merchandise.

Trump's remaining in office on purely partisan support will only set a precedent for continued corrupt presidencies. If partisan politics trumps the rule of law, which is exactly what is happening now. The Russian interference in the election process was inexcusable, clearly his campaign was involved, one of his campaign managers is in jail, and several other key people are negotiating immunity deals. The fact that people are willing to overlook his complete lack of moral character and integrity is dangerous. My wife and I have been watching a mini-series from the 80's set during WW2, and the similarities with Naziism are uncanny, and you can whine about that all you want to, if you don't see it you are intellectually blind.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby KeithE » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:23 pm

Sandy wrote:
KeithE wrote:As a white, male, protestant Christian, and relatively rich person, I’m under no threat from a continue Trump administration (as long as I kept my mouth shut at least and closely monitor my 401K).


You might want to keep an eye on that 401K. There will be inevitable consequences from the tarriffs and trade restrictions that have been levied. The effects of that are already starting to push the price of gasoline back up, and the major US automakers are shutting down shifts at numerous plants in anticipation of not being able to sell of excess merchandise.

Trump's remaining in office on purely partisan support will only set a precedent for continued corrupt presidencies. If partisan politics trumps the rule of law, which is exactly what is happening now. The Russian interference in the election process was inexcusable, clearly his campaign was involved, one of his campaign managers is in jail, and several other key people are negotiating immunity deals. The fact that people are willing to overlook his complete lack of moral character and integrity is dangerous. My wife and I have been watching a mini-series from the 80's set during WW2, and the similarities with Naziism are uncanny, and you can whine about that all you want to, if you don't see it you are intellectually blind.

I continually watch it - daily recreation. My 401K is down 2.2% (market down 3.0%) since June 13 due most likely to tariff announcements.

In 2016 in Nuremberg our guide warned us about Trump at the Hitler rallying grounds.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby William Thornton » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:58 pm

Tinfoil hat brigade reports for duty. Win an election brethren.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby Sandy » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:26 pm

William Thornton wrote:Tinfoil hat brigade reports for duty. Win an election brethren.



We have. More to come.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby KeithE » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:33 am

William Thornton wrote:Tinfoil hat brigade reports for duty. Win an election brethren.

Not only should we win elections but we need to examine how those elections occurred and once elected the actions/attitudes of the elected must be subject to constant review by the other two branches of government and that fourth rail of government, the free press.

William, you sit back and offer unstudied, short, usually sarcastic shotbacks. Elect and ignore is your philosophy. This is both apathy and political antipathy.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby William Thornton » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:26 am

Thanks for the lecture.

All that Nazi hair on fire stuff... not worth more than a eye roll.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby KeithE » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:13 pm

William Thornton wrote:Thanks for the lecture.


You are welcome.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby KeithE » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:23 pm

You know there has not been a single post responding to the opening post concerning the illegal use of charitable contributions in the Trump Foundation. And we are in the second page of posts (40 posts not about the Trump Foundation; and I have contributed/responded to the diversions).

But let's get back to the original issue. Read the following link and comment if you would. Why the I.R.S. Should Go After Trump

I challenge BaptistLife to become a responsive discussion forum again. If you agree with the link above, say so; if not, say why.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby Sandy » Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:39 pm

Phillip Hackney in the New York Times wrote:I do not believe these violations are within the norm of mistaken or accidental use. It represents a continued willingness to violate basic charitable norms. He may see it as a petty violation, but it is an enormous breach for the broader community.


The easiest thing in the world for Trump to do would be to release his tax returns. If they're in good order (ha ha ha) then all of this goes away. The fact that he was a braggart in stating that he knows tax laws better than anyone else does makes all of this inexcusable. The fact that he has attempted to divert attention from his own tax woes by pointing fingers at the Clintons, who produced returns, documents, and whose foundation passed an IRS audit, makes him a hypocrite as well. No ordinary citizen would be able to get away with this.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby JE Pettibone » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:30 pm

Ed: There are procedures and processes for settling such questions in a court of Law not on the pages of the New York Times or through any other media outlet.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby Haruo » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:38 pm

Sandy wrote:The easiest thing in the world for Trump to do would be to release his tax returns. If they're in good order (ha ha ha) then all of this goes away.

Better yet, he could tweet them out in <280-character bursts and dribbles.

BTW, I thought it was 140 characters. Nobody, Twitter included, told me they doubled the permissible length last November.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby KeithE » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:09 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: There are procedures and processes for settling such questions in a court of Law not on the pages of the New York Times or through any other media outlet.

Yes and the procedures are for Trump to release his tax returns as every other presidential candidate has done.

You seem to want to defend Trump. Can I ask why?
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby JE Pettibone » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:45 pm

KeithE wrote:
JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: There are procedures and processes for settling such questions in a court of Law not on the pages of the New York Times or through any other media outlet.

Yes and the procedures are for Trump to release his tax returns as every other presidential candidate has done.

You seem to want to defend Trump. Can I ask why?


Ed: There is no documented process or procedure saying that a presidential candidate must "release his tax returns as every other presidential candidate has done" it is merely tradition." Trump ran as an opponent of traditional politics which is one of the few things I really like about him.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby Sandy » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:25 pm

Not disclosing tax returns isn't an example of being "an opponent of traditional politics." It's an example of having something to hide that disqualifies you from serving as President. His dishonesty is one of several things I don't like about him.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby William Thornton » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:06 am

Sandy wrote:Not disclosing tax returns isn't an example of being "an opponent of traditional politics." It's an example of having something to hide that disqualifies you from serving as President. His dishonesty is one of several things I don't like about him.


He didn't release his tax returns. He was elected by the people. They decide what disqualifies and what doesn't, not pundits.
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Re: Just One More Reason Trump Must Be Impeached

Postby KeithE » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:22 am

Ed: There is no documented process or procedure saying that a presidential candidate must "release his tax returns as every other presidential candidate has done" it is merely tradition. Trump ran as an opponent of traditional politics which is one of the few things I really like about him.


William Thornton wrote:He didn't release his tax returns. He was elected by the people. They decide what disqualifies and what doesn't, not pundits.

Well if you look at the DATA (not pundits), the tradition of the electoral college decided things (Clinton won the people’s vote).

Yet Ed supports Trump because he “an opponent of traditional politics”.

I think Dave’s post about “tribal epistemology” explains this.
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