Comey is Right

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Comey is Right

Postby KeithE » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:18 am

Although Comey is flawed (see my previous post here) but he is certainly right about
Trump is Morally Unfit to be President
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:13 am

KeithE wrote:Although Comey is flawed (see my previous post here) but he is certainly right about
Trump is Morally Unfit to be President


I do believe those who voted for him are not surprised of his morality but they weighed the difference and chose who they thought was the better candidate... even if it was simply a vote against the other candidate.

Neither candidate had a moral high ground to speak from.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby KeithE » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:22 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:Although Comey is flawed (see my previous post here) but he is certainly right about
Trump is Morally Unfit to be President


I do believe those who voted for him are not surprised of his morality but they weighed the difference and chose who they thought was the better candidate... even if it was simply a vote against the other candidate.

Neither candidate had a moral high ground to speak from.

Hillary’s moral grounding is sound (show where I’m wrong). Her militaristic stances and questionable handling of classified material meant that I could not vote for her.

Trump’s moral ground is in the sewer and his policies just as bad.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Sandy » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:29 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:Although Comey is flawed (see my previous post here) but he is certainly right about
Trump is Morally Unfit to be President


I do believe those who voted for him are not surprised of his morality but they weighed the difference and chose who they thought was the better candidate... even if it was simply a vote against the other candidate.

Neither candidate had a moral high ground to speak from.


I think a lot of Trump supporters have been surprised by the depths of the immorality that has come to light since he was elected, and shocked by the level of corruption that has turned up every time one of his associates is either fired, or indicted. I see evidence of that in the "water cooler" conversations around here, in an environment where the employees and parents are Evangelical Christians, and most were Trump supporters prior to the election. That's changed, as many of them have been shocked by what has transpired since the election, and by what has come out. The more vocal Trump supporters are now a minority, and have grown quiet, while many of those who once waved his flag are now openly critical, and clearly off the bandwagon.

Then there are those like Robert Jeffress, and Falwell Jr., for whom morality and character are only important when the candidate is someone they don't like. That position, more than anything else, has served to cause Evangelicals to have to own Trump's immoral behavior, and has undermined the credibility of their leadership.

Hence, Comey has mountains of credibility compared to Trump. But then again, so did Hillary Clinton. The argument that "neither candidate" had a "moral high ground" from which to speak doesn't really hold water. Hillary was far more trustworthy and moral than Trump, in every way, across the board, at any point, in any credible comparison.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:27 am

KeithE wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:Although Comey is flawed (see my previous post here) but he is certainly right about
Trump is Morally Unfit to be President


I do believe those who voted for him are not surprised of his morality but they weighed the difference and chose who they thought was the better candidate... even if it was simply a vote against the other candidate.

Neither candidate had a moral high ground to speak from.

Hillary’s moral grounding is sound (show where I’m wrong).

Simply understanding that morals has to do with a lot more than sex... Hillary's political life is filled with a total lack of moral behavior. If you need a list, then giving you one is pointless because you refuse to see what is out there and has been since Little Rock.

Her militaristic stances and questionable handling of classified material meant that I could not vote for her.

Trump’s moral ground is in the sewer and his policies just as bad.

Opinion noted.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby KeithE » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:48 am

Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
I do believe those who voted for him are not surprised of his morality but they weighed the difference and chose who they thought was the better candidate... even if it was simply a vote against the other candidate.

Neither candidate had a moral high ground to speak from.

Hillary’s moral grounding is sound (show where I’m wrong).

Simply understanding that morals has to do with a lot more than sex... Hillary's political life is filled with a total lack of moral behavior. If you need a list, then giving you one is pointless because you refuse to see what is out there and has been since Little Rock.

Her militaristic stances and questionable handling of classified material meant that I could not vote for her.

Trump’s moral ground is in the sewer and his policies just as bad.

Opinion noted.

Did not think you would come up with anything morality wise wrt Hillary. The only one that you might have alluded to is Whitewater (Final Report summarized here).

In a final report that ends the Whitewater investigation that sprawled across a range of subjects and vexed President Bill Clinton and Hillary Rodham Clinton for most of his two terms in the White House, the independent counsel's office said today that there was insufficient evidence to show that either committed any crimes.

Robert W. Ray, the last occupant of the office of independent counsel for Whitewater matters, said in the 2,090-page report that the Clintons' principal business partner in the Whitewater land development scheme in Arkansas, James B. McDougal, had committed several acts of fraud, but that there was no credible evidence that the Clintons either knew of or participated in those acts.

Responding on behalf of the Clintons, David E. Kendall, the lawyer who represented them throughout the Whitewater case, said the report showed that the amount of money spent on the investigation, more than $64 million at last count, was excessive but that the intense scrutiny would have unearthed wrongdoing had there been any.


But as we all agree - "all have sinned". And I’m sure Methodist Hillary has her skeletons. I for one fault her militarism (and that is a moral issue) but no more so than Obama, Trump (so far), and certainly less than Bush/Cheney whose lies (be it for oil, revenge, or neocon “American” power or mistaken sense of protecting Americans at the expense of others) brought on millions of deaths.

Yes, morality has many more components than sexual fidelity. Loving God is important (who knows what they think about God but Hillary regularly attends church, Trump seldom attends only when expected to). Loving people is the other big moral principle and politically that translates into caring for all people (the poor, the middle class, the rich, migrants, women, men, SLBGTQs, all races, all religions).
According to the tax breaks his “care” is weighted towards the rich.
Image
Note: that 14.3% of at a min of $1M is $143,000 while 0.4% of a max of $10K is $40. That’s at least 3575x as much “care” for the rich - who do not really need it.

His attitudes against Muslims and migrants is clear - demagoguery focussed (i.e.he uses them).

Forgiveness matters also - Hillary ranks high on that point on at least one point. Trump treats women terribly (have sex, dump them with an NDA; has treated his 3 wives horribly). Trump has stiffed many workers. Trump lies repeatably. Need I go on.

Tell us Jon, why you continue to support Trump. Here is your opportunity.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Sandy » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:07 am

Jon Estes wrote:Simply understanding that morals has to do with a lot more than sex... Hillary's political life is filled with a total lack of moral behavior. If you need a list, then giving you one is pointless because you refuse to see what is out there and has been since Little Rock.


Translated, there is no list or evidence that exists to prove this assertion. The line about giving a list being pointless is one of several ways discussions about Hillary usually wind up. A list is pointless, not because of a refusal to see what is out there, but because most such lists are made up of extremist right wing media assertions that have already been proven wrong.

What is a bit more concerning, as far as I am concerned, are those who claim to be guided by their Christian faith, were not surprised by Trump's immorality, and went ahead and supported him anyway, either because they thought he was "the better candidate," or because their partisan political perspective weighs heavier than their Christian conscience. Take a look at the scripture, something like James 4:16-17, and then say that Trump's morality and character doesn't matter, that you're not voting for a "pastor in chief," and that you're OK allowing your name to be associated with that kind of character. You can't justify that by claiming that the other candidate had moral problems too. Try to find a passage of scripture that will support you preaching "I don't care about character and morality in a leader" from your pulpit, and see how that goes.

As far as Comey's background goes, he's as conservative and as partisan as any FBI chief has been, but he hasn't allowed his political preferences to determine his moral convictions, or to interfere with his responsibility when he led the FBI.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby KeithE » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:10 am

Sandy wrote:
What is a bit more concerning, as far as I am concerned, are those who claim to be guided by their Christian faith, were not surprised by Trump's immorality, and went ahead and supported him anyway, either because they thought he was "the better candidate," or because their partisan politican perspective weighs heavier than their Christian conscience. Take a look at the scripture, something like James 4:16-17, and then say that Trump's morality and character doesn't matter, that you're not voting for a "pastor in chief," and that you're OK allowing your name to be associated with that kind of character. You can't justify that by claiming that the other candidate had moral problems too. Try to find a passage of scripture that will support you preaching "I don't care about character and morality in a leader" from your pulpit, and see how that goes.


Amen to that!
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Haruo » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:53 am

Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:Although Comey is flawed (see my previous post here) but he is certainly right about
Trump is Morally Unfit to be President


I do believe those who voted for him are not surprised of his morality but they weighed the difference and chose who they thought was the better candidate... even if it was simply a vote against the other candidate.

Neither candidate had a moral high ground to speak from.

And for those coming at it all from a Biblical perspective, David and Solomon both had a lot of women who could have joined the #MeToo Squad if it had been around back then. Look at Abishag, or Bathsheba, say, or the little sister in Canticles. This might be a reason to keep your daughters in the house and off the roof, but it's not apparently a reason not to praise David on multiple counts and view him as a Type of Christ, nor to teach your kids that Solomon was the wisest man who ever lived because of his readiness to cut a newborn in two.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:18 am

KeithE wrote:Although Comey is flawed (see my previous post here) but he is certainly right about
Trump is Morally Unfit to be President


You believe what you want. You want to believe Comey. No problem and not surprised.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:21 am

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:Simply understanding that morals has to do with a lot more than sex... Hillary's political life is filled with a total lack of moral behavior. If you need a list, then giving you one is pointless because you refuse to see what is out there and has been since Little Rock.


Translated, there is no list or evidence that exists to prove this assertion. The line about giving a list being pointless is one of several ways discussions about Hillary usually wind up. A list is pointless, not because of a refusal to see what is out there, but because most such lists are made up of extremist right wing media assertions that have already been proven wrong.

What is a bit more concerning, as far as I am concerned, are those who claim to be guided by their Christian faith, were not surprised by Trump's immorality, and went ahead and supported him anyway, either because they thought he was "the better candidate," or because their partisan political perspective weighs heavier than their Christian conscience. Take a look at the scripture, something like James 4:16-17, and then say that Trump's morality and character doesn't matter, that you're not voting for a "pastor in chief," and that you're OK allowing your name to be associated with that kind of character. You can't justify that by claiming that the other candidate had moral problems too. Try to find a passage of scripture that will support you preaching "I don't care about character and morality in a leader" from your pulpit, and see how that goes.

As far as Comey's background goes, he's as conservative and as partisan as any FBI chief has been, but he hasn't allowed his political preferences to determine his moral convictions, or to interfere with his responsibility when he led the FBI.


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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Sandy » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:33 am

Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:Although Comey is flawed (see my previous post here) but he is certainly right about
Trump is Morally Unfit to be President


You believe what you want. You want to believe Comey. No problem and not surprised.


Well, you can believe a man who directed the FBI successfully, and long before coming to that position, earned a reputation that landed him the job, and earned him respect from Presidents who belonged to both parties, or you can believe a guy whose reputation for sleeping around, committing corporate fraud, not paying business partners and contractors, lying, unfaithfulness and adultery in his marriages, and running gaming casinos and strip clubs.

There are a lot of people who believe what they want, and who, as you've said, don't care about Trump's morality or character. It is a surprise to me that anyone who claims to be a leader of the Christian church gives more than a couple of seconds worth of thought to even considering any kind of support for that. Thankfully, it looks like a majority of Americans, over 70% of them, recognize the contrast in character between these two men, and fully believe and support James Comey.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby KeithE » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:51 am

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:Although Comey is flawed (see my previous post here) but he is certainly right about
Trump is Morally Unfit to be President


You believe what you want. You want to believe Comey. No problem and not surprised.


Well, you can believe a man who directed the FBI successfully, and long before coming to that position, earned a reputation that landed him the job, and earned him respect from Presidents who belonged to both parties, or you can believe a guy whose reputation for sleeping around, committing corporate fraud, not paying business partners and contractors, lying, unfaithfulness and adultery in his marriages, and running gaming casinos and strip clubs.

There are a lot of people who believe what they want, and who, as you've said, don't care about Trump's morality or character. It is a surprise to me that anyone who claims to be a leader of the Christian church gives more than a couple of seconds worth of thought to even considering any kind of support for that. Thankfully, it looks like a majority of Americans, over 70% of them, recognize the contrast in character between these two men, and fully believe and support James Comey.


Agree with most of what you say Sandy but,

Washington Times Poll: 47% believe Comey more, 46% believe Trump more, 6% neither

ABC Washington Post Poll: 48% Comey is more believable, 32% says Trump is more believable

That is not “over 70%”.

Personally I believe Comey's account of being asked by Trump for loyalty rings true. That is fascism. Comey's judgment on releasing Clinton investigation results was poor. But I do not believe that is why Trump fired Comey - in fact he admitted that Comey was fired for the Russia investigation (Lester Holt interview) not for handling of Clinton email investigation. That's prima facie “obstruction of justice”.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:40 am

Jon Estes wrote:Simply understanding that morals has to do with a lot more than sex... Hillary's political life is filled with a total lack of moral behavior. If you need a list, then giving you one is pointless because you refuse to see what is out there and has been since Little Rock.

Opinion noted.
[/quote]

I have a really hard time with the above. All I know about Hillary Clinton is that she is an active Christian. Her former pastor Phil Wogaman attested to her Christian character on more than one occasions. So yes, I need list. Otherwise this looks like false witness against a fellow Christian. Comparing her morality to Trump's complete lack of morality is one of the things making evangelical Christians looking nearly schizophrenic right now.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Sandy » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:50 am

Tim Bonney wrote:
I have a really hard time with the above. All I know about Hillary Clinton is that she is an active Christian. Her former pastor Phil Wogaman attested to her Christian character on more than one occasions. So yes, I need list. Otherwise this looks like false witness against a fellow Christian. Comparing her morality to Trump's complete lack of morality is one of the things making evangelical Christians looking nearly schizophrenic right now.


This is the typical assertion of any anti-Hillary conversation. They can't point to specifics, but speak generalities.

Jon Estes wrote:If you need a list, then giving you one is pointless because you refuse to see what is out there and has been since Little Rock.


Translation: "I didn't like Hillary because of her politics, therefore she is immoral. I like Trump's politics, therefore his immorality doesn't matter to me."
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:54 am

Here is a letter from Dr. Philip Wogaman, Mrs. Clinton's former pastor at Foundry UMC in Washington, DC

"Hillary Clinton—The Character Question"

I thought I was having a heart attack. During a family birthday dinner in September, 1998, I suddenly felt several of the symptoms. “Are you all right?” I was asked. “I’m not sure” I said. A son immediately took charge, calling the rescue squad. Loaded into an ambulance, I was whisked off to a hospital. I was there overnight, with a variety of tests. Happily the tests were mostly negative; it didn’t seem to be a real heart attack after all. Perhaps something I’d eaten. But a ministry colleague at Foundry United Methodist Church reported my hospitalization to the congregation that next morning, during the Sunday worship service.

My bedside phone rang. It was Hillary Rodham Clinton, then First Lady. She expressed genuine concern, hoping that the stress of ministering during the 1998 White House crisis hadn’t caused whatever this was. I thanked her, telling her that I seemed to be all right.

Was this an unusual act of caring on her part? Just because I was Senior Minister of her church? It might seem so. But there had been other occasions, involving other people. For instance during my hospital visit to a church member who was terminally ill, he had received a call of support from Ms. Clinton. Then there was the time at the conclusion of a service when the Clintons were about to leave, and she spotted a woman afflicted with cerebral palsy who was having difficulty being understood. Crossing the narthex she reached out to this woman, whom she could not have known previously, to offer support. Then there was the special Christmas greeting she and her husband sent to an elderly woman in a nursing home, whom they could not have known—a greeting card that remained pinned to the woman’s wall until her death a year or so later. And her reaching out to the parents of a young man who was killed in the Ron Brown plane crash in Croatia.

On a more personal level, she backed her daughter Chelsea’s participation in the youth Appalachia Service Project, which involved very hard work repairing homes of poor people deep in the woods of Appalachia.

Such things help to show why I am deeply troubled by the misguided questions being raised by some about Hillary Clinton’s character, and the relentless attacks that will continue. She is not perfect. None of us are. But she is fundamentally a very good person! As a lifelong Methodist, she embodies (and often quotes) the teaching of Methodist founder John Wesley that we should do all the good we can, to all the people we can, wherever we can. Wesley advised us all to strive for perfection in love. We should try to be more loving persons. We all fall short of that, but that is the enduring life purpose, in which we are aided and encouraged by God. She also spoke of Wesley’s observation that there is no holiness that is not social holiness, so love also entails social justice and public policy.

Ms. Clinton exemplifies another Methodist principle that may be more reassuring to non-Methodists and, for that matter, non-Christians. We recognize that God is at work among all people everywhere. We must not reject others whose beliefs differ from our own. God’s grace is given to us all. We can warn one another about destructive attitudes and actions, but it is not our place to condemn other persons. Obviously anybody in high office has to make difficult decisions, facing dilemmas and sometimes employing tough actions. She is no stranger to that. But underneath, the guiding principle is how to advance the good--for everybody. She is no stranger to that either. Her tireless efforts in behalf of women and children are well known, reinforced in my mind by personal conversations with her.

I’m puzzled about something else. Ms. Clinton is criticized for her speaking fees. They’re certainly way above my pay grade! But little is said about her generosity in sharing her economic good fortune with others. She and her husband were among the top givers to the Foundry Church during their White House years. Such giving is without fanfare. Her income tax forms, available on-line for all to see, show that the Clintons give more than 10% (the biblical tithe) of before-tax income to charitable enterprises. The Clinton Foundation, which has received a good deal of her speaking fee income, has done enormous good in Africa and India, probably saving thousands of lives.

I must reiterate that nobody is perfect. In positions of high responsibility any leader will make mistakes. But it matters whether you can learn from experience. And even more, whether your guiding star is to “do all the good you can.”

J. Philip Wogaman

-----

Dr. Wogaman taught Christian Ethics at Wesley Theological Seminary in Washington, DC where he also served as Academic Dean... Before retirement, he also served as Senior Minister at Foundry United Methodist Church in the Nation's Capitol...
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby KeithE » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:55 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:Here is a letter from Dr. Philip Wogaman, Mrs. Clinton's former pastor at Foundry UMC in Washington, DC

"Hillary Clinton—The Character Question"

I thought I was having a heart attack. During a family birthday dinner in September, 1998, I suddenly felt several of the symptoms. “Are you all right?” I was asked. “I’m not sure” I said. A son immediately took charge, calling the rescue squad. Loaded into an ambulance, I was whisked off to a hospital. I was there overnight, with a variety of tests. Happily the tests were mostly negative; it didn’t seem to be a real heart attack after all. Perhaps something I’d eaten. But a ministry colleague at Foundry United Methodist Church reported my hospitalization to the congregation that next morning, during the Sunday worship service.

My bedside phone rang. It was Hillary Rodham Clinton, then First Lady. She expressed genuine concern, hoping that the stress of ministering during the 1998 White House crisis hadn’t caused whatever this was. I thanked her, telling her that I seemed to be all right.

Was this an unusual act of caring on her part? Just because I was Senior Minister of her church? It might seem so. But there had been other occasions, involving other people. For instance during my hospital visit to a church member who was terminally ill, he had received a call of support from Ms. Clinton. Then there was the time at the conclusion of a service when the Clintons were about to leave, and she spotted a woman afflicted with cerebral palsy who was having difficulty being understood. Crossing the narthex she reached out to this woman, whom she could not have known previously, to offer support. Then there was the special Christmas greeting she and her husband sent to an elderly woman in a nursing home, whom they could not have known—a greeting card that remained pinned to the woman’s wall until her death a year or so later. And her reaching out to the parents of a young man who was killed in the Ron Brown plane crash in Croatia.

On a more personal level, she backed her daughter Chelsea’s participation in the youth Appalachia Service Project, which involved very hard work repairing homes of poor people deep in the woods of Appalachia.

Such things help to show why I am deeply troubled by the misguided questions being raised by some about Hillary Clinton’s character, and the relentless attacks that will continue. She is not perfect. None of us are. But she is fundamentally a very good person! As a lifelong Methodist, she embodies (and often quotes) the teaching of Methodist founder John Wesley that we should do all the good we can, to all the people we can, wherever we can. Wesley advised us all to strive for perfection in love. We should try to be more loving persons. We all fall short of that, but that is the enduring life purpose, in which we are aided and encouraged by God. She also spoke of Wesley’s observation that there is no holiness that is not social holiness, so love also entails social justice and public policy.

Ms. Clinton exemplifies another Methodist principle that may be more reassuring to non-Methodists and, for that matter, non-Christians. We recognize that God is at work among all people everywhere. We must not reject others whose beliefs differ from our own. God’s grace is given to us all. We can warn one another about destructive attitudes and actions, but it is not our place to condemn other persons. Obviously anybody in high office has to make difficult decisions, facing dilemmas and sometimes employing tough actions. She is no stranger to that. But underneath, the guiding principle is how to advance the good--for everybody. She is no stranger to that either. Her tireless efforts in behalf of women and children are well known, reinforced in my mind by personal conversations with her.

I’m puzzled about something else. Ms. Clinton is criticized for her speaking fees. They’re certainly way above my pay grade! But little is said about her generosity in sharing her economic good fortune with others. She and her husband were among the top givers to the Foundry Church during their White House years. Such giving is without fanfare. Her income tax forms, available on-line for all to see, show that the Clintons give more than 10% (the biblical tithe) of before-tax income to charitable enterprises. The Clinton Foundation, which has received a good deal of her speaking fee income, has done enormous good in Africa and India, probably saving thousands of lives.

I must reiterate that nobody is perfect. In positions of high responsibility any leader will make mistakes. But it matters whether you can learn from experience. And even more, whether your guiding star is to “do all the good you can.”

J. Philip Wogaman

-----

Dr. Wogaman taught Christian Ethics at Wesley Theological Seminary in Washington, DC where he also served as Academic Dean... Before retirement, he also served as Senior Minister at Foundry United Methodist Church in the Nation's Capitol...


Thanks Timothy!
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:26 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:Simply understanding that morals has to do with a lot more than sex... Hillary's political life is filled with a total lack of moral behavior. If you need a list, then giving you one is pointless because you refuse to see what is out there and has been since Little Rock.

Opinion noted.


I have a really hard time with the above. All I know about Hillary Clinton is that she is an active Christian. Her former pastor Phil Wogaman attested to her Christian character on more than one occasions. So yes, I need list. Otherwise this looks like false witness against a fellow Christian. Comparing her morality to Trump's complete lack of morality is one of the things making evangelical Christians looking nearly schizophrenic right now.


I made no comparison but rather a direct statement that HC has moral issues as well. Hers have nothing to do with sex but that her political life is full with a lack of moral behavior. Lies... treason... private computer system...

I’m not supporting DT but the lack of balance when discussing the conduct of the candidates is sad.

The letter is nice. I’m sure many people could write a nice letter of Trump. If they did, I can imagine that it would not be found factual here.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:27 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
I made no comparison but rather a direct statement that HC has moral issues as well. Hers have nothing to do with sex but that her political life is full with a lack of moral behavior. Lies... treason... private computer system...

I’m not supporting DT but the lack of balance when discussing the conduct of the candidates is sad.

The letter is nice. I’m sure many people could write a nice letter of Trump. If they did, I can imagine that it would not be found factual here.


I don't know who might write a nice letter about Trump. But they'd be hard pressed to get a letter from someone as respected in Christian Ethics circles as Phil Wogaman. That says something to me about what he writes about Hillary. He has known credibility and a high level of integrity.

As to balance, you can't stand on the far right edge, listen to someone standing to the middle or even someone left of center and then complain about balance. I'm practically the only actual liberal in this group. Almost everyone else here is a moderate or a conservative. So when most of the rest of the group isn't willing to wildly claim that Mrs. Clinton committed treason, that isn't lack of balance. That is a sign that you are about to fall off the right wing edge of the cliff when the balance bar tips to the right.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby KeithE » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:25 pm

Jon Estes wrote: I made no comparison but rather a direct statement that HC has moral issues as well. Hers have nothing to do with sex but that her political life is full with a lack of moral behavior. Lies... treason... private computer system...


Hillary Lies? True enough - Politifcat lists 25 Hillary lies here. Bad enough. But a drop in the bucket compared to Trump’s 1,950 Untrue Claims in 2017.

Treason ?? Come on now, please explain. Could it be that you listen to Fox News too much?

Private Computer System??? All of us on BL have a private computer system.
Did you mean private email system for government info? Primarily that was for convenience (and general practice at that time) but it included carelessness in handling unmarked classified material. Not exactly a “moral issue”.

I think you need to read Frequent Hannity and Trump news collusion.

The phone calls between President Trump and Sean Hannity come early in the morning or late at night, after the Fox News host goes off the air. They discuss ideas for Hannity’s show, Trump’s frustration with the ongoing special counsel probe and even, at times, what the president should tweet,...


That sounds to me like a state run press. And you Jon have been apparently taken in by negative Fox News press for Hillary during the campaign (but you have forgotten the details, only remember the sensationalized underlined words above). Likewise you have been taken in by the positive Trump spin jointly constructed by Trump/Fox News talking points/fake news continuing to this day.

And again Jon, I ask you to point out why you still support this guy? More specifically what policies do you deem important enough to overlook his moral lapses.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Sandy » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:06 pm

The "treason" accusation stems from the allegations made by Sebastian Gorka regarding Hillary engineering a deal to sell 20% of the US supply of uranium to Russia in exchange for the company making the deal giving the Clinton Foundation a big donation. Hannity is the "journalist" who teamed up with Gorka to report this. Unfortunately for Gorka's credibility, he got fired from the Trump White House, and claimed it was because of the "Clinton supporters" there. So he's a bit of a nutjob himself. But there are major credibility problems with the whole story. First, the Secretary of State doesn't approve "uranium deals." Those are done by the Committee on Foreign Investment in the US, of which the Secretary of State is just one of nine members, and she didn't participate in the committee that made this particular deal. Second, the deal involved low-grade Uranium, and was made with Canada, not Russia. Third, it didn't involve anywhere near 20% of the US supply of Uranium. Fourth, no contribution was ever made to the Clinton Foundation by a uranium company or anyone associated with one.

But that's Hannity's M.O. Take a couple of things that can be verified as facts, and depend on your viewer's ignorance and stupidity to believe the fictional narrative you pull together. Of course, Hannity's role as Trump's chief propagandist in the Goebbels tradition has been underlined by the discovery of his client relationship with Michael Cohen. That pretty much confirms that Hannity and Trump, in their intimate conversations, sit around and decide what the fake news will be and how they will distribute it to their mindless followers.

The other accusation of "treason" was related to the email issue. Not enough proof turned up in that investigation to render a legal charge. Trump's subsequent firing of James Comey took the credibility away from anything he ever said about it.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Sandy » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:12 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:I don't know who might write a nice letter about Trump.


Not a former pastor where he held church membership. There is no such person. Perhaps Robert Jeffress or Jerry Falwell Jr. could figure out how to write a similarly complimentary screed extolling his ownership of clubs where women dance naked in front of an audience for tips, or the numerous adulterous affairs he had on each of his three wives, or his divorces. Or they could say how nice it is that he earns a lot of money from gambling casinos, which cheats people out of their money, or that he was just trying to make a lady feel better when he was talking on the Access Hollywood video about all of the things he can get away with doing because he is a celebrity.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:06 pm

Sandy wrote:
Timothy Bonney wrote:I don't know who might write a nice letter about Trump.


Not a former pastor where he held church membership.


All I know about Hillary is that she is a committed Christian. Yes, she is a mainline Christian so her priorities theologically are different from Evangelicals. But she is an active Christian. I’ve seen no indication that Trump is an active Christian or that he has much connection to the faith.

The relationship between people like people like Jerry Falwell Jr. and Trump is just bizarre it me. What possible reason would any of us ever have to consider Falwell Jr.’s opinion on moral behavior ever again after his support of Trump? He could take him seriously expecting students at Liberty to live moral lives? His credibility is zero with me.

Growing up around conservative Christians, I used to respect their emphasis on personal morality even if I didn’t understand their theology. Now, what difference does the theology make if you can just abandon that theology for convenience or politics.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Sandy » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:47 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:The relationship between people like people like Jerry Falwell Jr. and Trump is just bizarre it me. What possible reason would any of us ever have to consider Falwell Jr.’s opinion on moral behavior ever again after his support of Trump? He could take him seriously expecting students at Liberty to live moral lives? His credibility is zero with me.


And here's a quote from Michael Gerson in the Atlantic that Stephen found which addresses that very question.

The moral convictions of many evangelical leaders have become a function of their partisan identification. This is not mere gullibility; it is utter corruption. Blinded by political tribalism and hatred for their political opponents, these leaders can’t see how they are undermining the causes to which they once dedicated their lives. Little remains of a distinctly Christian public witness.

It does not take a prophetic gift to foresee the damage that is coming down the pike for those who are closely identified with Evangelical Christianity and the mish-mash of existentialist politics involved in support for Trump. A lot of churches are going to disband and close, and a lot of ministries are going to shut down as a result.
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Re: Comey is Right

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:49 am

Sandy wrote:It does not take a prophetic gift to foresee the damage that is coming down the pike for those who are closely identified with Evangelical Christianity and the mish-mash of existentialist politics involved in support for Trump. A lot of churches are going to disband and close, and a lot of ministries are going to shut down as a result.


If I were an evangelical, I'd be trying to find a way to distance myself from such people. Truly the whole evangelical movement is in peril.
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