NRA - is not the problem...

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NRA - is not the problem...

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:49 am

I am not a member of the NRA and I do not own a gun. I enjoy target shooting and am pretty good at it -- or I was before I had to start wearing glasses.

The NRA gets a lot of heat from the press and many others but the NRA does not make laws or change laws concerning guns or anything else.

The blame or target of our complaints needs to be lawmakers. If they vote the way the NRA wants because they get money - expose this. There are too many politicians hiding behind the blame of anyone or anything else that can be blamed when they know the laws being made are in their hands.

Take the fight to where the change can be made.
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby JE Pettibone » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:17 am

Ed: Jon, In large part the NRA supported largely by politically right wing professing Christians is the problem behind the assault weapons market glut, because of their spending huge money to buy those politicians . Question; Why do they spend that money? Answer; The love of Money.
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:57 am

JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: Jon, In large part the NRA supported largely by politically right wing professing Christians is the problem behind the assault weapons market glut, because of their spending huge money to buy those politicians . Question; Why do they spend that money? Answer; The love of Money.



I wouldn’t disagree but the problem is not the money but the love of the money by those who can make laws.

The media making the NRA the demon in this argument hides the reality of those who are guilty of not making laws to protect our kids.

Why not blame the metal detector companies for not supplying the machines to check all who enter the building? The gov can pass a law saying all public schools are required to have such machines.

Let’s make the conversation about those not making the difference they can by passing sensible laws.
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:05 am

The NRA is so anti-government that it makes no sense for politicians (who are the government) to cozy up for donations. Will Rogers was right (in the 1930's) when he said, "The way I see it, we Americans have the best politicians money can buy." That is proven in many areas. The ones who can give the most bucks get the biggest bang.
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby JE Pettibone » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:16 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: Jon, In large part the NRA supported largely by politically right wing professing Christians is the problem behind the assault weapons market glut, because of their spending huge money to buy those politicians . Question; Why do they spend that money? Answer; The love of Money.


I wouldn’t disagree but the problem is not the money but the love of the money by those who can make laws.

Ed: Jon did you read my statement? it is quite short. Note my answer to why the NRA spends huge money to buy politicians. Are you not familiar with the saying it takes money to make money?
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:46 pm

Jon Estes wrote:Take the fight to where the change can be made.


So, if someone was paid $100,000 to murder someone, don’t come after the guy with the money, come after the shooter only right? I mean he is the real problem. Not someone who paid for the murder. :roll:
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:31 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:Take the fight to where the change can be made.


So, if someone was paid $100,000 to murder someone, don’t come after the guy with the money, come after the shooter only right? I mean he is the real problem. Not someone who paid for the murder. :roll:


Not saying that at all.

Are you saying the NRA paid the shooter or gave the gun to the shooter in Florida?

Support for people to have guns legally and constitutionally does not equate to being complicit to the murders.

The point is, the government makes and enforced laws... not the NRA. If change in law needs to happen, go to those who can make the change. Take the fight to wherevchanges can be made.
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby Haruo » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:35 pm

The NRA's general approach in recent decades has been to be as obstructionist as it can, and to encourage (bribe?) lawmakers to do likewise, against any and all efforts to institute a wide variety of legal limits on the kinds of weapons and the conditions under which they may be "kept and borne", citing the Second Amendment in all cases and supporting the conspiracy theory that liberals and/or government want to implement these limits as the first stage in removing all guns and making both insurrection and subsistence hunting impossible.
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:29 am

Haruo wrote:The NRA's general approach in recent decades has been to be as obstructionist as it can, and to encourage (bribe?) lawmakers to do likewise, against any and all efforts to institute a wide variety of legal limits on the kinds of weapons and the conditions under which they may be "kept and borne", citing the Second Amendment in all cases and supporting the conspiracy theory that liberals and/or government want to implement these limits as the first stage in removing all guns and making both insurrection and subsistence hunting impossible.


OK - You know what the NRA is --- you define it as you see it --- I have no problem...

BUT...

Shouldn't the issue be with politicians who accept the encouragement (bribe?)...

BECAUSE...

They are the ones make law.

Do we blame the temptation being made or the temptation we give into for the sin we commit (I am sure some do)

OR...

Is the sin we commit ours to answer too?

As long as we can get others to see the tempter or temptation, we look pretty good because no one is looking at us.

The NRA is the politicians best friend because they don't shine the light on those who make the laws and the bribery that take.
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:29 am

The NRA also contributes to the efforts of several other groups to gerrymander so that favorable candidates get elected which makes "one man, one vote" a sick joke.
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:39 am

Dave Roberts wrote:The NRA also contributes to the efforts of several other groups to gerrymander so that favorable candidates get elected which makes "one man, one vote" a sick joke.


Would you say the same thing about Planned Parenthood and their contributions since PP outgave (slightly) the NRA in 2018?

NRA - 263K
PP - 270K

* figures by open secrets web site.

Both parties have their doners.
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby Sandy » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:38 am

Not sure where those figures came from. Here's the website on the NRA.

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summar ... cycle=2016

Same website for Planned Parenthood.

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summar ... D000000591
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:52 am

I must say that the NRA is much better at enforcing their desires like late night meetings in the WH and at the RNC. I'm not really a fan of either in some areas.
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby KeithE » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:14 am

The biggest problem I have with Jon’s post title is the word “the”.

Most frequently with all social ills, we have several “problems” and thus several solutions. Among the problems contributing to mass murder are sinful anger, rapid fire guns, violent movies and video games, poor parenting, mental illness, bad policing , ... Among the solutions to mass murder are multi-round gun control (ban assault rifles), better identification of the mentally ill (for gun registration), better point-of-violence security ... and more foundationally better spirituality/ethics, less violence in movies/videos, better parenting, better mental health interdiction.

All solutions need to be considered and the easy ones that do not unduly hurt liberties should be enacted soon. Banning assault-stytle, rapid-fure guns (not needed for hunting or self-preotection) and universal registration are a good start. Banning handguns (replacing them with non-lethal weapons) could help with the broader murder/suicide prevalence in this country.

Jon can hope for those more foundational solutions take total effect. Existing attempts have not been very effective - anger still abounds. That is why we have laws and law enforcement.

The NRA with their zeal for more gun profits (said to be due to the 2nd Amendment “gun rights") is tying the hands of law enforcement in several ways. The NRA is the largest problem at this time.

Of course if law enforcement wants more armaments/guns, the NRA are all for that - that is why they are all for arming teachers.
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby Haruo » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:38 am

Sandy wrote:Not sure where those figures came from. Here's the website on the NRA.

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summar ... cycle=2016

Same website for Planned Parenthood.

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summar ... D000000591


These show PP as far ahead of the NRA in direct contributions, but far behind in the other kinds of funding. I'm not sure what the definition of "Outside Spending" is. Jon's figures must have been a subset of something, I'm wondering if it was direct contributions to the presidential campaigns? Jon?
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby Jim » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:02 pm

KeithE wrote:The biggest problem I have with Jon’s post title is the word “the”.

Most frequently with all social ills, we have several “problems” and thus several solutions. Among the problems contributing to mass murder are sinful anger, rapid fire guns, violent movies and video games, poor parenting, mental illness, bad policing ,

At least you agree that all anger is not sinful...I guess. I lived in the day of the Saturday double-feature, in which the bad and good guys violently had it out, and played with cap pistols in the neighborhood "bloodlettings" in the vacant lots (great for childish warfare settings, too). I never felt driven to do anything murderous, however, the same as the playmates. The Parkland shooter had no record of mental illness/mental institutional occupancy, so how could anyone know his condition? He had a record of domestic violence but nobody arrested him for that, so what else could be done? Cops are called to the same address multiple times for domestic problems but few arrests are made for it. Once in a while the cop gets killed but that's sorta expected...right? Parenting, whether poor or otherwise, should never be expected to predict a child's future behavior...all those "black sheep."

... Among the solutions to mass murder are multi-round gun control (ban assault rifles), better identification of the mentally ill (for gun registration), better point-of-violence security ... and more foundationally better spirituality/ethics, less violence in movies/videos, better parenting, better mental health interdiction.

Absolutely nothing new here! Would better ID of the mentally ill be good for any reason other than gun registration? How about switchblades and butcher knives and machetes and, of course, box-cutters, as in 9/11? How is a point-of-violence identified before the fact? Most any street corner in South Chicago is a point-of-violence but it would be hard to have a cop on every one of them. For those having no connection with religion, of what good is better spirituality/ethics? How would better mental-health interdiction work...just grab a guy if he looks dangerous and throw him in the clink?

All solutions need to be considered and the easy ones that do not unduly hurt liberties should be enacted soon.

What are the hard solutions? Confiscation of all firearms would be the easiest solution (at least on paper, but don't come looking for my .38).

Banning assault-stytle, rapid-fure guns (not needed for hunting or self-preotection) and universal registration are a good start. Banning handguns (replacing them with non-lethal weapons) could help with the broader murder/suicide prevalence in this country.

I have a handgun that was duly registered when I bought it. If I thought I needed a rapid-fire gun (I don't) I should have the right to own one, though it would be hard to conceal-carry. I don't know what a non-lethal weapon would do if a mugger approached me (age 88 with a broken back). Should I carry a baseball bat and pray? And what's wrong with suicide anyway? That's nobody's business but the person involved. Maybe you have tasers in mind. That would be a good way to get killed if it didn't work the first time.
Jon can hope for those more foundational solutions take total effect. Existing attempts have not been very effective - anger still abounds. That is why we have laws and law enforcement.

I just knew there had to be a reason. Thanks.

The NRA with their zeal for more gun profits (said to be due to the 2nd Amendment “gun rights") is tying the hands of law enforcement in several ways. The NRA is the largest problem at this time.

Does the NRA sell guns for profit or anything else? Obviously, the NRA is not the problem.

Of course if law enforcement wants more armaments/guns, the NRA are all for that - that is why they are all for arming teachers.

No, law enforcement wants whatever it takes to do its job, just like the army. Arming teachers has nothing to do with law-enforcement, only school safety. I'm not sure that's the best way but it's probably better than doing nothing.
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby Rvaughn » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:06 pm

Haruo wrote:These show PP as far ahead of the NRA in direct contributions, but far behind in the other kinds of funding.?
Leland, Open Secrets defines "outside spending" HERE.
The term "outside spending" refers to political expenditures made by groups or individuals independently of, and not coordinated with, candidates' committees. Groups in this category range from conventional party committees to the more controversial super PACs and 501(c) "dark money" organizations.

Not sure how much that helps you. Me, not so much.
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby Haruo » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:15 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
Haruo wrote:These show PP as far ahead of the NRA in direct contributions, but far behind in the other kinds of funding.?
Leland, Open Secrets defines "outside spending" HERE.
The term "outside spending" refers to political expenditures made by groups or individuals independently of, and not coordinated with, candidates' committees. Groups in this category range from conventional party committees to the more controversial super PACs and 501(c) "dark money" organizations.

Not sure how much that helps you. Me, not so much.

Some help but not a whole lot. I'd have to look at the specifics to even begin to decide what to make of it. But thanks for digging it out and posting it.
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:38 am

KeithE wrote:The biggest problem I have with Jon’s post title is the word “the".


Oh well... I said it the way I meant it. Changing the title changes the purpose of why I posted what I did.


The problem with any gun law, if there is a problem, is with the lawmakers, not the lobbyist.

No one at the NRA wrote law... voted on law... or, forced a politician to do their bidding.

Even blaming Trump is not dealing with the root of any problem.
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby KeithE » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:30 am

Haruo wrote:
Rvaughn wrote:
Haruo wrote:These show PP as far ahead of the NRA in direct contributions, but far behind in the other kinds of funding.?
Leland, Open Secrets defines "outside spending" HERE.
The term "outside spending" refers to political expenditures made by groups or individuals independently of, and not coordinated with, candidates' committees. Groups in this category range from conventional party committees to the more controversial super PACs and 501(c) "dark money" organizations.

Not sure how much that helps you. Me, not so much.

Some help but not a whole lot. I'd have to look at the specifics to even begin to decide what to make of it. But thanks for digging it out and posting it.

My take is:

Outside spending is what they give out (above internal operations). Looking at details (scroll down to “outside spending"), it appears to be political advertising. In the case of the NRA they spent $37M against Dems and $17M for Reps. In the case of PP, they spent $9M against Reps and $5M for Dems. Interesting that both organizations spent more against the party they oppose than the party they support. Negative advertisement is more what these organizations are about.

Note that the spending is more than what they officially receive by named donors. You might rightfully ask - How can they spend more than they receive? What makes up the difference (my opinion) is the dark money from donors who do not want to be identified usually thru some PAC or SuperPAC who can not reveal their sources.

It appears that PP gets more individual donors while the NRA has more dark money.
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby KeithE » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:05 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:The biggest problem I have with Jon’s post title is the word “the".


Oh well... I said it the way I meant it. Changing the title changes the purpose of why I posted what I did.


The problem with any gun law, if there is a problem, is with the lawmakers, not the lobbyist.

No one at the NRA wrote law... voted on law... or, forced a politician to do their bidding.

Even blaming Trump is not dealing with the root of any problem.


The point was there are more than one problem with why we have so many mass murders in our country - sin/anger/frustration on the part of the perpetrator is of course a root cause (which may be contributed to by poor parenting, bullying, drugs, violent entertainment). The “mass” part of those murders is also due to assault rifles, poor registration of the mentally ill (overlooked by the NRA). I’m not saying the NRA is “the” only problem but it contributes since it is fighting banning assault rifles, universal registration, and generally promoting gun ownership.

In your post you identify “lawmakers” as a cause. Those lawmakers by having received NRA money and just as importantly their NRA rating, results in substantial blame to the NRA. Ultimately, the voters who are taken in by the gun culture are also to blame.

The many problems mean we many solutions working together. Assault firearms banning and universal/better registration checks (both of which the NRA opposes) would help. Other solutions are also needed (not the least of them is replacing NRA favoring lawmakers).

On another subject, what do you know about Goerge Nader.
Last edited by KeithE on Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NRA - is not the problem...

Postby Neil Heath » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:50 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:I must say that the NRA is much better at enforcing their desires like late night meetings in the WH and at the RNC. I'm not really a fan of either in some areas.


I'm not sure if you meant the White House or the Waffle House. I have a lot of early morning meetings at the latter. :)
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