Mueller Indictments

The place to discuss politics and policy issues that are not directly related to matters of faith.

Moderator: Jon Estes

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby William Thornton » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:43 am

KeithE wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Timothy, my hero, answers the simple question I asked an Internet epoch ago. Thanks.

So happy that the long-suffering William has finally got his simple yes/no answer.

Maybe he can sleep in a little longer tomorrow.


Truth is sometimes difficult for folks here.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12025
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby KeithE » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:56 am

William Thornton wrote:
KeithE wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Timothy, my hero, answers the simple question I asked an Internet epoch ago. Thanks.

So happy that the long-suffering William has finally got his simple yes/no answer.

Maybe he can sleep in a little longer tomorrow.


Truth is sometimes difficult for folks here.

Arriving at truth involves some research for some folks here. Like maybe reading the indictments, themselves, instead of just asking BL posters to do it for them (and then ignoring responses if they do not like those responses or it would take too much effort to read).

As Timothy said, the indictments did not prove Trump / Russian “collusion”; truth is collusion was not addressed.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8796
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Sandy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:18 am

Tim Bonney wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Hey, I didn't start the drumbeat of collusion with the russkies. I'm just wondering if this bunch of indictments puts us there. Apparently, the answer is not to be uttered...


I don't believe the current indictments prove collusion. I suspect (just my opinion of course) that this is not the last set of indictments. So I'll wait and see what is still to be found.


All we know is that there were 13 Russians indicted. We don't know whether or not they, or the counsel, has information that proves collusion. But it certainly does provide evidence that disproves the "fake news, witch hunt" rhetoric that comes out of the White House.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8744
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby JE Pettibone » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:56 am

Sandy writes "All we know is that there were 13 Russians indicted. We don't know whether or not they, or the counsel, has information that proves collusion. But it certainly does provide evidence that disproves the "fake news, witch hunt" rhetoric that comes out of the White House."

Ed: If "all we know" is "that there were 13 Russians indicted, where is the "evidence"? It is interesting how both Republicans and Democrats claim the indictments favor themselves.
JE Pettibone
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:48 am

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:42 pm

William Thornton wrote:Timothy, my hero, answers the simple question I asked an Internet epoch ago. Thanks.


LOL, I honestly don't know what an internet epoch is.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5883
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby William Thornton » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:52 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Timothy, my hero, answers the simple question I asked an Internet epoch ago. Thanks.


LOL, I honestly don't know what an internet epoch is.


Two or three days.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12025
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:23 pm

William Thornton wrote:
Two or three days.


Sorry William, so much of what is discussed in this forum no longer applies that sometimes I only check back every two or three days.

While interesting, arguments about Baptist specific stuff is something I'm a bit less engaged in these days. :wink: Surprisingly, I've been a Methodist eight years now. (An epoch of its own!)
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5883
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Sandy » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:56 am

Quite a busy day around the Mueller investigation, with the developments surrounding Manafort and Gates. If you're following this, you can see where it's going. We're well beyond refuting claims of this being a witch hunt, or fake news, or debating whether there might have been collusion or not. Now we're down to who colluded, when, how, and whether or not Trump, and Pence, knew and when they knew.

Real news.

https://www.politicususa.com/2018/02/23 ... ardon.html
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8744
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby William Thornton » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:12 am

OK, now we're cooking. These latest indictments have something to do with the trump campaign?
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12025
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby KeithE » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:12 am

Sandy wrote:Quite a busy day around the Mueller investigation, with the developments surrounding Manafort and Gates. If you're following this, you can see where it's going. We're well beyond refuting claims of this being a witch hunt, or fake news, or debating whether there might have been collusion or not. Now we're down to who colluded, when, how, and whether or not Trump, and Pence, knew and when they knew.

Real news.

https://www.politicususa.com/2018/02/23 ... ardon.html


Manafort is clearly begging Trump for a pardon for all his misdeeds dating back to 2008 (maybe before) and continuing until Feb 2017. Gates (as of last night) has turned to be an informant for Mueller. Trump campaign aide Rick Gates pleads guilty in Mueller investigation. Note he pleaded guilty to only 2 charges and Mueller no doubt will get info on some bigger fish (Manafort, Trump) for that concession. Manafort's and Gates’ documented misdeeds includes acts during the Trump Campaign - question is whether the Trump Campaign use funds from these illegal activities and whether any of those misdeeds were known to Trump. Remember also the GOP changed their platform to be more favorable to Russia in the Ukrainian fight soon after Manafort was installed as Trump Campaign chair.

If Trump pardons Manafort (as the link above suggests), Trump should be impeached/removed - for not enforcing the law. Unfortunately any Manafort trial could be delayed for years meaning Trump could have 3 more years before making a pardon at the end of his term.

(In my view, this means 3 more years to continue dismantling legitimate US government functions (current casualties include EPA, Consumer Protection, OSHA, FCC Net Neutrality, Medicaid/Mental Heath/Diasbility funding, white collar crime enforcement, usury enforcement, inadequate hurricane relief, ....) and enhancement of government overzealousness (ICE deportments, mass incarcerations on minor charges, profiling, military protection of US businesses in over 140 countries). Still waiting hopefully on infrastructure rebuilding/jobs, returning our forces from overseas occupations.)

To keep the pressure on, Manafort should be kept in house arrest with the likely prospect of lifetime sentence after trial.

The most charitable view I could give for Trump pardoning Manafort is blatant favoritism - sort of an honor-among-thiefs; the most likely case, however, is that Manafort has plenty of compromising material on Trump. So if Trump stiffs Manafort (like he has so many others in his business life), Trump will face many charges once out of office.

Now that we see how Trump's cohorts have laundered Russian money to avoid taxes, Trump himself should be forced to release his tax returns (soon) and scrutiny paid to his financial deals with Russia (likewise Kushner, Trump Jr, Eric Trump) prior to inauguration and his lack of enforcing Russian sanctions since inauguration. Likewise the Trump Campaign funds (intake and spending) should be laid bare for all to see. I hope that Mueller is on this and we don’t need to wait 3 more years to have this big-business and rich-favoring president removed.

I can’t believe that some in this country are so impressed with Trump’s shutdown-the-regulatory-state, anti-elite message, that they ignore (1) very likely Trump’s financial and moral misdeeds, (2) continued unpresidential words/actions, and (3) for many their own self interests (continued increases in already severe inequality). “Blinded” by RW causes (hyped up by Rush/Beck/Coulter/O’Reilly/... with aid from Russian trolls).

Frankly, being President is the only way Trump’s could have been granted a security clearance. Kushner has been denied a clearance and should have his SECRET (Interim) removed (hopefully happening soon).
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8796
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Jim » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:54 pm

KeithE wrote:
Frankly, being President is the only way Trump’s [sic] could have been granted a security clearance.

This whole post (not repeated to be boringly intolerable) elicits hilarity on a scale to the degree of fomenting laughter that might cause a hernia. Compare Manafort and Gates (their skullduggery long before Trump even announced that he was buying the presidency at a fair price) to Hillary, Lynch, Obama, Comey, Bubba (Me, Too gang hot on his trail), Mueller, DNC and their other partners in crime and thus get a picture of what REAL CORRUPTION looks like. If Hillary had been convicted of what amounts to treasonous activities, as she should have been, during Obama's miserable terms, he would have left her twisting in the wind. Having the nation's emails on Wiener's laptop is something that couldn't be made up. Flynn should already have been pardoned...turns out he did nothing wrong anyway, but the witch-hunt goes on. Putin probably falls off his horse laughing whenever he tunes in CNN or reads the WP. Anyhow, Trump could just buy a clearance, like Hillary bought Steele's phony dossier, which has now backfired and, since all the current corruption started on Obama's watch, puts the BIG O in a class by itself for sleaze.
Jim
 
Posts: 3771
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Lexington, Ky.

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:27 pm

Funny how Trey Gowdy's probe dried up when he found he would also have to charge Colin Powell and Condi Rice for the email issue. Guess he wasn't willing to go as far as 45 expected.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7220
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Sandy » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:28 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:Funny how Trey Gowdy's probe dried up when he found he would also have to charge Colin Powell and Condi Rice for the email issue. Guess he wasn't willing to go as far as 45 expected.


They'd have to charge Trump now, too. He started right in with classified information on a private server.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8744
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Sandy » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:31 pm

Jim wrote:
KeithE wrote:
Frankly, being President is the only way Trump’s [sic] could have been granted a security clearance.

This whole post (not repeated to be boringly intolerable) elicits hilarity on a scale to the degree of fomenting laughter that might cause a hernia. Compare Manafort and Gates (their skullduggery long before Trump even announced that he was buying the presidency at a fair price) to Hillary, Lynch, Obama, Comey, Bubba (Me, Too gang hot on his trail), Mueller, DNC and their other partners in crime and thus get a picture of what REAL CORRUPTION looks like. If Hillary had been convicted of what amounts to treasonous activities, as she should have been, during Obama's miserable terms, he would have left her twisting in the wind. Having the nation's emails on Wiener's laptop is something that couldn't be made up. Flynn should already have been pardoned...turns out he did nothing wrong anyway, but the witch-hunt goes on. Putin probably falls off his horse laughing whenever he tunes in CNN or reads the WP. Anyhow, Trump could just buy a clearance, like Hillary bought Steele's phony dossier, which has now backfired and, since all the current corruption started on Obama's watch, puts the BIG O in a class by itself for sleaze.


Thank you, Jim, for the latest news from the planet Kolob. None of that is happening here on earth or anywhere nearby. :lol:
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8744
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby JE Pettibone » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:50 pm

KeithE wrote:

Frankly, being President is the only way Trump’s [sic] could have been granted a security clearance.

Ed: What other need whold he have for it?
JE Pettibone
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:48 am

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby William Thornton » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:37 pm

Yeah, I know you guys are off and running. My question was about these indictments being something about the campaign. Were they?
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12025
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby KeithE » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:16 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:KeithE wrote:

Frankly, being President is the only way Trump’s [sic] could have been granted a security clearance.

Ed: What other need whold he have for it?


Sorry about the extra ’s. But Huh?. His need for a clearance is so he can be informed on national security matters.

But curiously, Presidents do not need to go through any formal clearance review (like the rest of us every 5 years). Their financial, family, criminal, legal, tax records need not be scrutinized. Trump's record of these matters is far from satisfactory, so like Kushner he would not have been granted a final clearance if this curious presidents-are- exempt rule was not in play.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8796
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby KeithE » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:36 pm

William Thornton wrote:Yeah, I know you guys are off and running. My question was about these indictments being something about the campaign. Were they?


Again showing your unwillingness to read for yourself (or is it some backhand way of saying there is no evidence of collusion in these indictments?)

I’ll agree that the indictments does not conclusively show “collusion” (under some strict legal definition of collusion), but there is plenty of evidence for a cozy, mostly undercover Russian/Trump relationship on the Campaign, Transition Team and Administration:
(1) members of the campaign team were in touch with Russians (Papadopolus, Flynn, Manafort, Gates, Stone, Page, Don Jr., Goldstone, Prince, Sessions),
(2) the GOP platform got changed to favor Russia’s interest in Ukraine,
(3) Trump's on-air calling for Russia and Wikileaks to release emails (OK this was not undercover),
(4) Trump tower July 2016 meeting expressly to get dirt on Hillary (including lies about it),
(5) Manafort’s money laundering very possibly being used on Trump's campaign,
(6) transition team word via Flynn that Obama’s sanctions (for interfering with our election) would not be enforced,
(7) Trump never calling down Putin for anything and complimenting him instead, and
(8) Trump continued refusal to enforce new sanctions despite Congressional bill unanimously passed for him to do so by Oct 2017.

Don’t say there is no evidence of collusion, just that it is not conclusive complete with Trump's fingerprints on it at this point.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8796
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby William Thornton » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:08 am

Off and running...

It is reported that these latest indictments have NOTHING to do with Trump campaign collusion. Don't know why it's so hard to say that.

You guys, one notices, are now talking about a full trump term unless manafort is pardoned in which case there will be impeachment. No more talk of electoral college revolt, etc etc

Perhaps this is progress.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12025
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby KeithE » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:38 am

William Thornton wrote:It is reported that these latest indictments have NOTHING to do with Trump campaign collusion. Don't know why it's so hard to say that.

Perhaps this is progress.


Don’t know why you don’t speak for yourself, William? Instead of trying to urge something out from other posters.

And why don’t you document your “It is reported...”?

That would be progress.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8796
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby William Thornton » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:06 am

KeithE wrote:
William Thornton wrote:It is reported that these latest indictments have NOTHING to do with Trump campaign collusion. Don't know why it's so hard to say that.

Perhaps this is progress.


Don’t know why you don’t speak for yourself, William? Instead of trying to urge something out from other posters.

And why don’t you document your “It is reported...”?

That would be progress.


OK, bro. You show me in these latest indictments Trump campaign collusion.

I just think maybe one of you anti-trumpers would tell the whole truth one of these days instead of an endless hemorrhage of half-truths and selected opinions, factoids, prophetic lib utterances, possibilities, wishes, fake news, and unrelated facts. :roll:
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12025
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby JE Pettibone » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:57 am

KeithE wrote:
William Thornton wrote:It is reported that these latest indictments have NOTHING to do with Trump campaign collusion. Don't know why it's so hard to say that.

Perhaps this is progress.


Don’t know why you don’t speak for yourself, William? Instead of trying to urge something out from other posters.

And why don’t you document your “It is reported...”?

That would be progress.


Keith writes in part
Don’t know why you don’t speak for yourself, William? Instead of trying to urge something out from other posters.


Ed: It doesn't seem to me that William is speaking for anyone other than himself. Personally, I believe a moderators job is urging something from others rather than trying to sound like they alone have all the answers.
JE Pettibone
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:48 am

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby KeithE » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:45 am

JE Pettibone wrote:
KeithE wrote:
William Thornton wrote:It is reported that these latest indictments have NOTHING to do with Trump campaign collusion. Don't know why it's so hard to say that.

Perhaps this is progress.


Don’t know why you don’t speak for yourself, William? Instead of trying to urge something out from other posters.

And why don’t you document your “It is reported...”?

That would be progress.


Keith writes in part
Don’t know why you don’t speak for yourself, William? Instead of trying to urge something out from other posters.


Ed: It doesn't seem to me that William is speaking for anyone other than himself. Personally, I believe a moderators job is urging something from others rather than trying to sound like they alone have all the answers.


Ed, read William’s comment in red above and my comment in blue above.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8796
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby JE Pettibone » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:21 pm

ED: I have read both your and William's post and stand by my earlier response.
JE Pettibone
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:48 am

Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby KeithE » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:59 pm

William Thornton wrote:
KeithE wrote:
William Thornton wrote:It is reported that these latest indictments have NOTHING to do with Trump campaign collusion. Don't know why it's so hard to say that.

Perhaps this is progress.


Don’t know why you don’t speak for yourself, William? Instead of trying to urge something out from other posters.

And why don’t you document your “It is reported...”?

That would be progress.


OK, bro. You show me in these latest indictments Trump campaign collusion.

I just think maybe one of you anti-trumpers would tell the whole truth one of these days instead of an endless hemorrhage of half-truths and selected opinions, factoids, prophetic lib utterances, possibilities, wishes, fake news, and unrelated facts. :roll:


As I said (slight mods for clarity in red, underline for emphasis):
I’ll agree that the indictments themselves do not conclusively show “collusion” (under some strict legal definition of collusion), but there is plenty of evidence for a cozy, mutually-beneficial, mostly undercover Russian/Trump relationship on the Campaign, Transition Team and Administration:
(1) members of the campaign team were in touch with Russians (Papadopolus, Flynn, Manafort, Gates, Stone, Page, Don Jr., Goldstone, Prince, Sessions), that they first denied happened,
(2) the GOP platform got changed to favor Russia’s interest in Ukraine,
(3) Trump's on-air calling for Russia and Wikileaks to release Hillary emails (OK this was not undercover),
(4) Trump tower July 2016 meeting expressly to get dirt on Hillary (including lies about it),
(5) Manafort’s money laundering very possibly being used on Trump's campaign,
(6) transition team word via Flynn that Obama’s sanctions (for interfering with our election) would not be enforced,
(7) Trump never calling down Putin for anything and complimenting him instead, and
(8) Trump continued refusal to enforce new sanctions despite Congressional bill unanimously passed for him to do so by Oct 2017.


These Manafort/Gates indictments are not the whole story about Russian/Trump orbit “collusion” or cooperation (e.g. the Mueller indictments of the Russia meddling to help Trump adds evidence). Nor is “collusion” the only wrongdoing being investigated by Mueller (financial fraud - bank statements, tax evasion; breaking campaign finance laws; abuse of power; obstruction of justice; payoffs for silence, and any other malfeasance that comes up are fair game for Mueller under the terms of the Special Prosecutor statute).

The 8 points above are some of the evidence for collusion during the Campaign, Transition Team and/or Administration. The recent Manafort/Gates indictments added evidence (5) and added a name (Gates) to evidence (1) - Manafort already on that list. Evidence for all investigated malfeasance is more than I would care to write about.

Evidence is cumulative. You can call them half-truths (if you like) but a bunch of evidential half-truths adds up. Besides points 1-8 are more than half-truths; they are well established. In sum I'd say we are at 80%+ for some form of Russian/Trump orbit “collusion" and near 100% for some form of malfeasance.

William’s attempt to limit evidence to A.) “collusion” only, B.) in these recent indictments and C.) as they relate to the Trump campaign (not pre-campaign, transition, administration) shows that he uses a very selective set of opinions/factoids that he wishes to accept into this discussion.

Provide counter-evidence if you can.
Last edited by KeithE on Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8796
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

PreviousNext

Return to Politics and Public Policy Issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests