Mueller Indictments

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Mueller Indictments

Postby KeithE » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:10 pm

The Mueller indictments against 13 Russians (just made) on how they influenced the American mind from 2014 onward (especially "Right Wing ethno-nationalistic” groups as Malcolm Nance just characterized on TV) is just the beginning of the Mueller probe output. I am hopeful that RW Americans will see how much they have been snookered but that will come slowly. Nance had it right in his book The Plot to Hack America: How Putin’s Cyberspies and WikiLeaks Tried to Steal the 2016 Election Paperback – October 10, 2016. He was right! But is Trump complicit? Will Trump fall? - yet to be seen. Trump’s premise has been there has been no Russian meddling. Will he seek extradition of the 13?

You can read the indictment yourself here. I will do so.
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:27 pm

I don’t know if Trump knew or not. But I’m finding it less and less likely that someone in the campaign didn’t know. How far up the collusion to steal the election goes is yet to be seen. Was it simply an act of cyber-war by Russia? (I imagine Trump is hoping for that conclusion.) How much higher does this go?

My impression of Mueller is that he only brings charges we he is darned sure they’ll stick. So he is being methodical and careful. I imagine the White House is staff is terrified.
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Joseph Patrick » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:46 pm

From Gerry Milligan

And now, after over a year of denying that his Russian friends had nothing to do with this, the president is now admitting that Russia is involved. What next? That 3 million votes were not from undocumented people? As my grand mother often said, "Will wonders never cease?"
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Jon Estes » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:22 am

I think a fair assessment is to stop trying to pin something her on Trump and just see that Russia's interest is to / was to bring disruption - period.

Trump haters will see collusion no matter what. They seem to need a conspiracy.

Most of those same people have shown no concern for other non-Americans trying to influence our judicial/congressional system.

I guess it all depends on what you want.

You wanted Hillary - Russian interference is illegal.
You want open borders - Illegal interference is a right.

Just shaking my head at the hypocrisy
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby William Thornton » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 am

What did the indictments say about collusion?

Really, the russkies helped Sanders?
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Jim » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:04 am

You couldn't make up this stuff. Blaming the Russians for both the meltdown of Bernie AND Hillary gets them off the hook for being so inept and socialistic (like the Russians) has to be done, not to mention the DNC, which, with Hillary, paid big bucks (remember the dossier and FISA) actually to deep-six Trump before and after the election, and is still trying to force him to somehow resign. Trump has been the victim of everybody from Obama (dating to 2014 when the Russians supposedly started doing dirty tricks) to Comey and the FBI to Lynch and Bubba (the tarmac-twosome) to the famous FBI fornicators to a Brit guy named Steele, who did the dirty work. The congressional committees have done the hard work, exposing the whole scheme and the players, and this has just been a start. Mueller never had anything but had to indict someone besides Manafort so he indicted folks who can never be tried for anything. Putin is probably laughing his head off. Hopefully, the CIA is doing its own dirty work regarding elections and other stuff all over the world. That's what it's for.
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Haruo » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:43 am

Collusion and interference are two separate concepts. I think there is some evidence of some collusion (particularly involving Trump's family members and possibly one or two other campaign people) but much more evidence of Russian interference in US electoral politics.
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby William Thornton » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:05 am

My question was about what is known at this point.
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby KeithE » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:26 am

William Thornton wrote:What did the indictments say about collusion?


The indictment is full of "defendants and co-conspirators” doing social media disinformation having contacts with people in the "Trump Campaign”. This disinformation campaign was meant to hype right wing messages using lies, exaggeration, false satire, etc. (in short false propaganda). And our RW bought it for the most part - the world is laughing at the American RW more so today. Read the indictment (I’ve attached a searchable WORD document for your convenience). This campaign started in 2014 and was accelerated greatly in June 2016 (that’s soon after the Pappadopoulous/Trump photo). There is a non-neglible possibility that this was cooked up during Trump’s visit to Moscow for the Beauty Contest in 2013 (but I'm not making that allegation at this time).

Previously there were several Trump Campaigners contacts with Russians and they lied about it until caught. It would be collusion if any of these contacts knew of and supported (actively, or by silence) that social media disinformation campaign. Even if Trump or his cronies did not design the disinformation campaign, but approved of it ('hey the helps us!'), I'd call that complicity at the very least. If Trump was knowledgable and let it happen, he should be impeached - call it what you like.

Trump even called on the Russians and Wikileaks to release Clinton’s emails live on TV.

William Thornton wrote:Really, the russkies helped Sanders?

Primarily the “Ruskies” supported Trump and disparaged Clinton. Secondarily (less intensity and in unspecified ways in the indictment from what I can tell) the indictment said they supported Sanders and Stein (to take away votes from Clinton) and were against Cruz and Rubio (to promote Trump’s nomination).

By the way what ever happened to the Congressional Bill demanding Trump enforced Obama’s sanctions on Russia and add new sanctions by Oct 2017. It has not happened and he is in violation of he law. We will see how Trump reacts to this attack on our nation’s democracy. So far he is only defending himself and calling for calm in tweets. But he did (in the first tweet) tacitly (and I believe inadvertently) admit that the Russian meddling into our election was not a hoax (as he has been claiming).

And the misinformation campaigns (RussIan, FoxNews, Limbaugh, etc.) are continuing. I can smell much of the falsity that is brought to the public. Check it out with the facts.

And there is so much more indictments coming. I'd be quiet if I was a Trump supporter at this time.
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby William Thornton » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:51 am

Ok, collusion or no collusion at this point, after these indictments? Your speculation about the future is noted.
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Jim » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:03 am

KeithE wrote:

And there is so much more indictments coming. I'd be quiet if I was a Trump supporter at this time.

As Jesus so eloquently put it to Saul (via KJV) it's hard to kick against the pricks. Incidentally, how did the Russkies affect your vote, assuming you voted, probably for Jill? I consulted Pravda/KGB (or whatever it is now) before I voted and saw Putin pictured riding a horse and had my answer...but I won't tell.
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby KeithE » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:08 pm

Jim wrote:
KeithE wrote:

And there is so much more indictments coming. I'd be quiet if I was a Trump supporter at this time.

As Jesus so eloquently put it to Saul (via KJV) it's hard to kick against the pricks. Incidentally, how did the Russkies affect your vote, assuming you voted, probably for Jill? I consulted Pravda/KGB (or whatever it is now) before I voted and saw Putin pictured riding a horse and had my answer...but I won't tell.

I voted for Jill from looking at her website and my social conscience. More than most herein, I go with the DATA to set my stances and then pick candidates that best represent those viewpoints. I don't look at propagandish-like social media ads. I knew my vote would not matter (Trump was shoe-in in Alabama). Trump was an obvious NO vote; Hillary being better. But I found her militaristic acts and her bad handling of classified info meant I could not vote for her.
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Joseph Patrick » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:19 pm

Jon Estes wrote:I think a fair assessment is to stop trying to pin something her on Trump and just see that Russia's interest is to / was to bring disruption - period.

Trump haters will see collusion no matter what. They seem to need a conspiracy.

Most of those same people have shown no concern for other non-Americans trying to influence our judicial/congressional system.

I guess it all depends on what you want.

You wanted Hillary - Russian interference is illegal.
You want open borders - Illegal interference is a right.

Just shaking my head at the hypocrisy


From Gerry Milligan,
Jon, I am sure that while your post followed my post directly, you were not calling me a trump hater, but it seems to me that this was a generic rant. I do not hate donald trump but I do not respect him. And since this was a generic rant, I was not bothered by you saying "you wanted Hillary" as I wanted Kaisich. And since this was a generic rant, I also did not take offense at a general name calling of people being hypocrites. Enjoy your warm weather in Dubai while it lasts.
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby William Thornton » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:20 pm

Struck dumb? Collusion or no collusion?
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Sandy » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:31 pm

The indictments completely discredit Trump's claim that this is a witch hunt, and fake news. Already a known fact, but like most everything else he's said about the whole matter, it's pretty clear he's trying to divert, and worried about what is getting dug up. These indictments may not prove collusion, but the Mueller investigation got plea deals from Flynn and Papadopolous and looks like it is heading toward Page and Gates. And their indictment does indicate collusion, along with a whole mountain of other evidence. So far, Trump is zero when it comes to getting facts right about this thing, the FISA warrants didn't depend on the dossier, and the FBI had a lot of other reasons to get them. If there wasn't anything to it related to Trump, he would have no need to go to these kinds of lengths to stop it.
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby William Thornton » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:45 pm

Hey, I didn't start the drumbeat of collusion with the russkies. I'm just wondering if this bunch of indictments puts us there. Apparently, the answer is not to be uttered...
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:30 pm

I think that the administration comes down to one question. "Will Trump seek the extradition of these 13 indicted conspirators or sanction the facilitators of the perpetrators?" It would seem that to do neither would have to be impeachable as the failure to administer the law of the land.
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Sandy » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:09 pm

William Thornton wrote:Hey, I didn't start the drumbeat of collusion with the russkies. I'm just wondering if this bunch of indictments puts us there. Apparently, the answer is not to be uttered...


We were already there. The independent counsel wasn't appointed to investigate whether or not the Russians interfered, he was appointed to investigate whether or not there was collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians who interferred, and who, including Trump and Pence, knew about it. Everything that has happened so far, indictments, immunity deals, the list of people called to testify, and the twitter tweets and reactions of Trump, Pence and the White House, draws a line to a conclusion that there was plenty of collusion. My guess is that Trump was more than likely the one who sought Russian help while Lewandowski was his campaign manager, fired him because he needed Manafort, then fired him because the FBI was on the trail. We'll see.

Dave Roberts wrote:I think that the administration comes down to one question. "Will Trump seek the extradition of these 13 indicted conspirators or sanction the facilitators of the perpetrators?" It would seem that to do neither would have to be impeachable as the failure to administer the law of the land.


He hasn't lifted a finger to put the sanctions ordered by Congress in place yet, which is a failure to enforce the law of the land. He promised Putin he'd take down the ones already there. The last thing he wants is Russians who worked directly with his campaign staff testifying in the investigation.
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Jon Estes » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:06 pm

Gerry,

I was not speaking to any specific person but to the general population who are Trump Haters.

These are identifiers out there which I thought would be understood.

Stating that things are hypocritical is not calling any individual a hypocrite. But is a fair assessment of what is. I think you know that.

If I reply to you directly, I will make sure you are addressed... as it is in this post.


Joseph Patrick wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:I think a fair assessment is to stop trying to pin something her on Trump and just see that Russia's interest is to / was to bring disruption - period.

Trump haters will see collusion no matter what. They seem to need a conspiracy.

Most of those same people have shown no concern for other non-Americans trying to influence our judicial/congressional system.

I guess it all depends on what you want.

You wanted Hillary - Russian interference is illegal.
You want open borders - Illegal interference is a right.

Just shaking my head at the hypocrisy



From Gerry Milligan,
Jon, I am sure that while your post followed my post directly, you were not calling me a trump hater, but it seems to me that this was a generic rant. I do not hate donald trump but I do not respect him. And since this was a generic rant, I was not bothered by you saying "you wanted Hillary" as I wanted Kaisich. And since this was a generic rant, I also did not take offense at a general name calling of people being hypocrites. Enjoy your warm weather in Dubai while it lasts.
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby KeithE » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:42 am

Jon Estes wrote:Gerry,

I was not speaking to any specific person but to the general population who are Trump Haters.

These are identifiers out there which I thought would be understood.

Stating that things are hypocritical is not calling any individual a hypocrite. But is a fair assessment of what is. I think you know that.

If I reply to you directly, I will make sure you are addressed... as it is in this post.


Joseph Patrick wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:I think a fair assessment is to stop trying to pin something her on Trump and just see that Russia's interest is to / was to bring disruption - period.

Trump haters will see collusion no matter what. They seem to need a conspiracy.

Most of those same people have shown no concern for other non-Americans trying to influence our judicial/congressional system.

I guess it all depends on what you want.

You wanted Hillary - Russian interference is illegal.
You want open borders - Illegal interference is a right.

Just shaking my head at the hypocrisy



From Gerry Milligan,
Jon, I am sure that while your post followed my post directly, you were not calling me a trump hater, but it seems to me that this was a generic rant. I do not hate donald trump but I do not respect him. And since this was a generic rant, I was not bothered by you saying "you wanted Hillary" as I wanted Kaisich. And since this was a generic rant, I also did not take offense at a general name calling of people being hypocrites. Enjoy your warm weather in Dubai while it lasts.

To those of us that have been labeled “IHateTrump”, we have been so labeled (as being automatically against all that Trump proposes), so as to dismiss what points we are making. I beg you to listen more carefully and fully.

Calling it “hypocrisy” for being against Russian interference in our democracy while not being against “open borders” that you believe (I guess) results in fraudulent voting, shows me you search hard to find such claimed hypocrisy. That is a strawman argument meant to place people into a “Liberal” box with imagined viewpoints. I am firmly against non-citizens voting.

BTW, the claim that 3 million illegals voted in the 2016 election is an example of homegrown false propaganda. Read Fact-check: Did 3 million undocumented immigrants vote in this year's election? Answer: False. Not necessarily saying you fell for this, Jon, but ... As for actual voter fraud, here are 9 investigations on voter fraud that found virtually nothing.

Why not recognize that the two issues are quite separate and most Americans are against election meddling via foreign propaganda and illegal immigrants voting.

Now I stand fully behind legal immigrants voting and a better more “welcoming the stranger/foreigner”* immigration system. But that does not mean I “wink" at illegals voting or foreigners entering our country to foul up public opinion with the expressed purpose of favoring one candidate/disparage another one (while having no interest in joining us as citizens).

I’m still waiting on Trump to do more than “wink” at this well established Russian meddling through social media and active support for political rallies of “Russian state approved” candidates. So far Trump is just being defensive. I urge Trump supporters to not accept Trump’s “Case Closed” attitude towards Mueller’s investigation.
--------------
* What the bible says about Welcoming Strangers in Your Land.
To be clear, I’m not for foreign visitors being given voting rights just for being here and the Bible makes no such point nor is that allowed in this country. But I stand against any xenophobic attitude very prevalent in our society today and I am for to a better process to full citizenship including voting rights.

In addition to following scripture’s repeated commands to be welcoming, immigration has helped and will to continue to help our country economically. 1500 economists say so.

Trump (with the aid of Russian propagandists) stoked anger towards immigrants (legal and illegal) to help him get elected. And continues to stoke that anger today to rally his troops.
--------------
My question this morning, is why did/does Russia want Trump? I suspect both:
1) Putin wants discord in our country and Trump is a discord creator
2) Putin did not like what Hillary did during the 2011 Russian elections - read Polico: Why Putin hates Hillary (July 2016)

BTW, Putin faces reelection on 18 March this year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_presidential_election,_2018. (Not suggesting the US should enter that fray in any way- that would be needless/futile intervention and an eye-for-an-eye attitude.)
--------------
Jon, how welcome do you feel in Dubai? (just interested)
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Sandy » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:12 pm

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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:44 pm

William Thornton wrote:Hey, I didn't start the drumbeat of collusion with the russkies. I'm just wondering if this bunch of indictments puts us there. Apparently, the answer is not to be uttered...


I don't believe the current indictments prove collusion. I suspect (just my opinion of course) that this is not the last set of indictments. So I'll wait and see what is still to be found.
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby William Thornton » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:28 am

Timothy, my hero, answers the simple question I asked an Internet epoch ago. Thanks.
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby KeithE » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:57 am

William Thornton wrote:Timothy, my hero, answers the simple question I asked an Internet epoch ago. Thanks.

So happy that the long-suffering William has finally got his simple yes/no answer.

Maybe he can sleep in a little longer tomorrow.
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Re: Mueller Indictments

Postby KeithE » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:22 am

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