Ideas to Reopen Government

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Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby KeithE » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:34 pm

1) The Senate Dems should have enough of their ranks vote Yes on the Continuing Resolution (CR) to let it pass (Doug Jones already said he will vote Yes and he did vote No on cloture last night hoping for solution); at the same time demand (with Trump and McConnell publicly promising to do so) that a fix to DACA (allowing the dreamers stay in the country) be completed by the DACA end date of March 5. Note that 87% of America believes DACA should be continued forever to save 700,000+ fully integrated Americans - only extreme nationalism says otherwise.

2) The Senate GOP (w/ or w/o Trumps’ approval) should add a DACA fix to the CR (extending it at least a few years) and I believe it will pass. I doubt this will occur but it would end the Shutdown.

Which ever side does this first will improve their popularity with the public. “Blinking” in this case is not a sign of weakness but of pragmatism/adulthood.

And quit the blame game - it does not help.

Shutdowns (if they are short term) and CRs have been no big deal to military programs I’ve been involved with. We expected and usually were well prepared to deal with CRs by saving funds from previous year(s). But I'm sure they do hurt other programs in varying degrees. Now if the shutdown (not CRs) goes on long term, we are in uncharted country.

I don’t think Trump cares if much of the government is shut down. He would love many Government agencies and bureaus to disappear - I can think of a few myself e.g. the National Technical Information Service (NTIS) and the Dept of Education (leave it to the states). But the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau? Trump appointee seeks $0 funding for Consumer Financial Protection Bureau - that frees up the payday lenders, shell companies that hide malfeasance, use offshore banks to avoid taxes, ...

But on the positive side, I do see that Trump is staying in Wash DC instead of another trip to Mir-al-Largo for a fund raising party. That shows he wants this impasse won, more than partying (contributions will always be received).

And I doubt Trump cares about the DACA recipients either. He cares about himself, the rich, and big business (thinks it will all flow downhill from there). His tax cut bill shows his/the GOP's priorities and that is certainly not the lower/middle/upper middle classes.


What do you all think?
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby Rvaughn » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:05 pm

A friend on Facebook posted a link to this article:
How Every Senator Voted on the Government Shutdown
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:28 am

Make the vote only on the C/R.

The adding of bills like DACA to these things to get them passed is not treating DACA fairly, nor those citizens ill-affected by a government shutdown.

If DACA is as crucial as they say, deal with it a something that important, not just a tag onto something else to see it through.

There is a March deadline for it anyway.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby KeithE » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:05 am

Jon Estes wrote:Make the vote only on the C/R.

The adding of bills like DACA to these things to get them passed is not treating DACA fairly, nor those citizens ill-affected by a government shutdown.

If DACA is as crucial as they say, deal with it a something that important, not just a tag onto something else to see it through.

There is a March deadline for it anyway.

I like that
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby KeithE » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:10 pm

The President suggested the Nuclear Option. That’s where filibusters can be ended by a 51% majority. Not a bad idea in general. Our government should not be held hostage by a minority, but the majority MUST be open to to consider the alternatives other than their pre-biases and party platforms.

I would be for a cloture procedure taken after say 1 day of filibuster and 1 hour per speaker. Minority should be able to say there piece (and the other side should be there to listen!), but not forever!. And I would love that there be more factual DATA (less sloganeering) given at these speeches.

I guess I’m dreaming on how things should be.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby Sandy » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:00 pm

Jon Estes wrote:Make the vote only on the C/R.

The adding of bills like DACA to these things to get them passed is not treating DACA fairly, nor those citizens ill-affected by a government shutdown.

If DACA is as crucial as they say, deal with it a something that important, not just a tag onto something else to see it through.

There is a March deadline for it anyway.


It's almost impossible to separate a continuing resolution from other issues, especially since this is the way the government has been operated for several years. The Freedom Caucus often attaches legislation, or opposes CR's based on their issues.

I'm not in favor of the "nuclear option." The filibuster is one of the checks and balances, unique to the Senate procedures, that gives the minority a fair voice. I believe the appointment of judges, who are supposed to be politically impartial, should be subject to it.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:49 am

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:Make the vote only on the C/R.

The adding of bills like DACA to these things to get them passed is not treating DACA fairly, nor those citizens ill-affected by a government shutdown.

If DACA is as crucial as they say, deal with it a something that important, not just a tag onto something else to see it through.

There is a March deadline for it anyway.


It's almost impossible to separate a continuing resolution from other issues, especially since this is the way the government has been operated for several years. The Freedom Caucus often attaches legislation, or opposes CR's based on their issues.

I'm not in favor of the "nuclear option." The filibuster is one of the checks and balances, unique to the Senate procedures, that gives the minority a fair voice. I believe the appointment of judges, who are supposed to be politically impartial, should be subject to it.


At least... my idea on how to reopen government sounds better than yours.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby Sandy » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:40 am

I would agree that not allowing bills to be attached to CR's would be a better way to go. But that's not how the rules operate. These rules worked when government operated with bi-partisan negotiation. But the winner take all mentality that now prevails means that in a situation like this, either the whole partisan majority has to go along, or there's gridlock.

Lifting quotes from the Republicans during the last couple of years of the Obama administration, if we had a competent president, we'd have had a budget passed by now, and all of these CR's wouldn't be necessary. It's been a year. The president's party controls both houses. Why can't he get his budget through?

Then there's this

https://federalnewsradio.com/government ... -shutdown/

Democrats put forth a bill to stop Congressional pay during the shutdown, along with one to continue to pay the military and other essential services during the shutdown, and Mitch McConnell shut both of them down.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby KeithE » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:52 pm

KeithE wrote:1) The Senate Dems should have enough of their ranks vote Yes on the Continuing Resolution (CR) to let it pass (Doug Jones already said he will vote Yes and he did vote No on cloture last night hoping for solution); at the same time demand (with Trump and McConnell publicly promising to do so) that a fix to DACA (allowing the dreamers stay in the country) be completed by the DACA end date of March 5. Note that 87% of America believes DACA should be continued forever to save 700,000+ fully integrated Americans - only extreme nationalism says otherwise.


Seems that this idea to end the shutdown happened; but the Dems caved in that it did not get promises from Trump to fix DACA (only McConnell). We will see.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby JE Pettibone » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:24 pm

KeithE wrote:
KeithE wrote:1) The Senate Dems should have enough of their ranks vote Yes on the Continuing Resolution (CR) to let it pass (Doug Jones already said he will vote Yes and he did vote No on cloture last night hoping for solution); at the same time demand (with Trump and McConnell publicly promising to do so) that a fix to DACA (allowing the dreamers stay in the country) be completed by the DACA end date of March 5. Note that 87% of America believes DACA should be continued forever to save 700,000+ fully integrated Americans - only extreme nationalism says otherwise.





Ed: When has 87% of America ever been polled on this or any question?

BTW your link dosen't work.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby KeithE » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:34 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:
KeithE wrote:
KeithE wrote:1) The Senate Dems should have enough of their ranks vote Yes on the Continuing Resolution (CR) to let it pass (Doug Jones already said he will vote Yes and he did vote No on cloture last night hoping for solution); at the same time demand (with Trump and McConnell publicly promising to do so) that a fix to DACA (allowing the dreamers stay in the country) be completed by the DACA end date of March 5. Note that 87% of America believes DACA should be continued forever to save 700,000+ fully integrated Americans - only extreme nationalism says otherwise.





Ed: When has 87% of America ever been polled on this or any question?

BTW your link dosen't work.


When has all America been polled? - never. Of course this is a sample like all polls.

The link works for me. Here are some key passages from that link (dated Jan 18, 2018).

According to the survey, almost 9 in 10 respondents — 87 percent — said they believe that the so-called Dreamers should be allowed to remain in the U.S. if they meet certain requirements, such as working or going to school.


The CBS News poll surveyed 1,225 Americans from Jan. 13 to 16. The margin of error is 3 percentage points.


Do you refuse to believe that a supermajority do not support the Dreamers (3.5 Million of them) of which 700,000+ have achieved DACA status.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby JE Pettibone » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:44 am

[


Ed: When has 87% of America ever been polled on this or any question?

BTW your link doesn't work.[/quote]


Keith: When has all America been polled? - never. Of course this is a sample like all polls.

Ed: That is my point. And therefor I reject you statement that "87% of America believes DACA should be continued forever..."

Keith: The link works for me. Here are some key passages from that link (dated Jan 18, 2018).

Ed's reply; Yes, I see you have corrected the link.

Keith: Here are some key passages from that link (dated Jan 18, 2018).

According to the survey, almost 9 in 10 respondents — 87 percent — said they believe that the so-called Dreamers should be allowed to remain in the U.S. if they meet certain requirements, such as working or going to school.


The CBS News poll surveyed 1,225 Americans from Jan. 13 to 16. The margin of error is 3 percentage points.


Do you refuse to believe that a supermajority do not support the Dreamers (3.5 Million of them) of which 700,000+ have achieved DACA status.[/quote]

Ed: What I refuse to believe is that your interpretation of a pole of 1,225 Americans, accurately reflects all of America or even 87%.

As I have said in other threads If anyone wants me to accept pole results they must include a statement of methodology used by the pollsters.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby Sandy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:47 am

Ed Pettibone wrote: What I refuse to believe is that your interpretation of a pole of 1,225 Americans, accurately reflects all of America or even 87%. As I have said in other threads If anyone wants me to accept pole results they must include a statement of methodology used by the pollsters.


This was a CBS news poll. Conservatives complain about the inaccuracy of polls when they show a majority doesn't think like they do, but they cite them as if they are scripture when they do. The polling data collected and analyzed by the major news networks is usually pretty accurate, as is that provided by the independent pollsters like Quinnipiac, Gallup, Pew Survey. Even Fox News has become a little better, after having been off track for so long. It depends on the topic, and how the data is gathered, but a poll with a purely random sample of 1,225 Americans has small enough margin of error to claim that at a minimum, 82% of Americans feel that DACA should be continued forever, and as high a figure as 92% believe that. Those are similar numbers to other polls asking similar questions.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby KeithE » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:15 pm

Sandy wrote:
Ed Pettibone wrote: What I refuse to believe is that your interpretation of a pole of 1,225 Americans, accurately reflects all of America or even 87%. As I have said in other threads If anyone wants me to accept pole results they must include a statement of methodology used by the pollsters.


This was a CBS news poll. Conservatives complain about the inaccuracy of polls when they show a majority doesn't think like they do, but they cite them as if they are scripture when they do. The polling data collected and analyzed by the major news networks is usually pretty accurate, as is that provided by the independent pollsters like Quinnipiac, Gallup, Pew Survey. Even Fox News has become a little better, after having been off track for so long. It depends on the topic, and how the data is gathered, but a poll with a purely random sample of 1,225 Americans has small enough margin of error to claim that at a minimum, 82% of Americans feel that DACA should be continued forever, and as high a figure as 92% believe that. Those are similar numbers to other polls asking similar questions.


Exactly Sandy. Political presumptions often overrule plain facts/ data. As Trump would say - So Sad.

Ed starts doubting any poll or data source that challenges his prior presumptions. I provided him the margin of error plus/minus 3% in this case. I guess he wants polls of all the population before he is convinced.

Of course he is free to believe it is a bad idea for DACAer or Dreamers to remain here. But he can’t say most Americans by a large majority agree with him.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby JE Pettibone » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:16 pm

KeithE wrote:
Sandy wrote:
Ed Pettibone wrote: What I refuse to believe is that your interpretation of a pole of 1,225 Americans, accurately reflects all of America or even 87%. As I have said in other threads If anyone wants me to accept pole results they must include a statement of methodology used by the pollsters.


This was a CBS news poll. Conservatives complain about the inaccuracy of polls when they show a majority doesn't think like they do, but they cite them as if they are scripture when they do. The polling data collected and analyzed by the major news networks is usually pretty accurate, as is that provided by the independent pollsters like Quinnipiac, Gallup, Pew Survey. Even Fox News has become a little better, after having been off track for so long. It depends on the topic, and how the data is gathered, but a poll with a purely random sample of 1,225 Americans has small enough margin of error to claim that at a minimum, 82% of Americans feel that DACA should be continued forever, and as high a figure as 92% believe that. Those are similar numbers to other polls asking similar questions.


Exactly Sandy. Political presumptions often overrule plain facts/ data. As Trump would say - So Sad.

Ed starts doubting any poll or data source that challenges his prior presumptions. I provided him the margin of error plus/minus 3% in this case. I guess he wants polls of all the population before he is convinced.

Of course he is free to believe it is a bad idea for DACAer or Dreamers to remain here. But he can’t say most Americans by a large majority agree with him.


Ed: I wish the two of you would speak to what I have written rather than attempting to analyze my motives.

For example I have said nothing about whether or not it is a good or bad idea for DACAer or Dreamers to remain here.

And Keith. if you research it I believe You will find that I more often respond to what I see as your biased interpretation of polls than with the poll it self. Nor have I said any thing about what the true percentage of Americans on either side of question believe or should believe about it.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:11 am

Well, the government is open. Looks like Schumer (referring to all Dems) had to take the blame (it was theirs to take).

Yeah, it's not over but in the next few weeks, we might actually see a wall given the thumbs up so DACA can get through.

Interesting times.

Time to clean up the FBI and mess the anti-Trump people have made and left.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby KeithE » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:35 am

Jon Estes wrote:Well, the government is open. Looks like Schumer (referring to all Dems) had to take the blame (it was theirs to take).

Yeah, it's not over but in the next few weeks, we might actually see a wall given the thumbs up so DACA can get through.

Interesting times.

Time to clean up the FBI and mess the anti-Trump people have made and left.

I see you been watching Fox News and taking your cues from them.

Image

56% say Republicans (Congressional Republicans plus Trump) were to blame.

Taking your cues from Fox News about the need to “clean up the FBI” also. Mueller is getting close; so Trump and FoxNews is countering by going after the FBI. I guess it is wrong to work for the FBI and not be true to Trump. The FBI should be free from Presidential or News organizations influence (especially at this time).

But such is your views Jon.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby KeithE » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:43 am

Jon Estes wrote:Well, the government is open. Looks like Schumer (referring to all Dems) had to take the blame (it was theirs to take).

Yeah, it's not over but in the next few weeks, we might actually see a wall given the thumbs up so DACA can get through.

Interesting times.

Time to clean up the FBI and mess the anti-Trump people have made and left.

I see you been watching Fox News and taking your cues from them. The truth is much murkier about who is to blame. The public thinks:

Image
Source

56% say Republicans (Congressional Republicans 18% plus Trump 38%) were “more” to blame. Congressional Democrats were more to blame. Many us believe both sides and the process are to blame.

Taking your cues from Fox News about the need to “clean up the FBI” also. Mueller is getting close; so Trump and FoxNews are now countering by going after the FBI. I guess it is wrong to work for the FBI and not be true to Trump. The FBI should be free from Presidential or News organizations influence (especially at this time).

But such are your views Jon.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:18 am

One thing is clear, to win battles like this, Democrats are going to have to "go for the jugular" as Republicans do. Sadly, that is what the body politic responds to most.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby Sandy » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:44 am

Jon Estes wrote:Well, the government is open. Looks like Schumer (referring to all Dems) had to take the blame (it was theirs to take).


Well, no it wasn't, and no he didn't and no they didn't. The poll that Keith posted shows 56% of Americans blamed the Republicans, and similar polls from network or independent sources put the numbers in about those same percentages. The Republicans have a majority in both houses, and the President is also Republican, which means that anything of this nature is their fault, 100%, hands down, slam dunk. The Democrats did nothing that the Republicans themselves haven't done when they were not in charge, and they offered the Republicans a reasonable means to prevent it, in the eyes of almost two thirds of the voters.

I see a lot of extremist right wing lip flapping and shrieking on social media about how Congress should not get paid when the government shuts down, but the military should. It was the Democrats who offered bills proposing both of those things, to not pay Congress, and to pay the military and essential services. Mitch McConnell shut both of those bills down.

If there was ever a shred of credibility in anything Trump or the Republicans have said about the FBI, it evaporated the moment the buffoon asked McCabe who he voted for, and brought up his wife's campaign contributors, and at the moment he fired Comey. That's just subterfuge in the face of the mountain of evidence and indictments that Mueller is piling up. They are grasping at straws that aren't even there.

DACA will be fine. There are too many Republican congressmen and senators in electoral trouble now to do anything but extend it and perhaps even expand it. As for the wall, perhaps that is something to dream about because it will never be a reality. These 55 to 60 percent favorability margins that the Democrats are piling up are probably a pretty good indication of how the November mid-terms will go, and that will be the end of the wall.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby KeithE » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:11 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:One thing is clear, to win battles like this, Democrats are going to have to "go for the jugular" as Republicans do. Sadly, that is what the body politic responds to most.

I hope you are wrong here Dave.

I have to believe that the priorities of Trump/Republicans (business and rich folk) and the priorities of Democrats/Most Independents (all people) will be seen for what they are and as MLK said “Let us realize the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.”

Hope there is no need for gerrymandering, calling in foreign help/bots, or demagogic ads (like the one we saw last weekend https://youtu.be/1xOH6cKdhmg).
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby William Thornton » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:54 pm

We might all agree that this shutdown business is pure, unadulterated politics. I was amused to see that Schumer got waxed on this one, fascinating and enjoyable to watch.

Who knows what the next one will look like, other than a circus without a tent.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby Sandy » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:00 pm

Schumer got waxed? Sure didn't seem that way. Given the mimicking of stuck pigs from Ryan and McConnell, I'd say they're the ones that got the waxing, and a shellacking on top of a whipping.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby William Thornton » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:15 pm

Sandy wrote:Schumer got waxed? Sure didn't seem that way. Given the mimicking of stuck pigs from Ryan and McConnell, I'd say they're the ones that got the waxing, and a shellacking on top of a whipping.


Even MSM is calling this one.
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Re: Ideas to Reopen Government

Postby KeithE » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:18 pm

Well according to the poll, I'd say no one "got waxed”, the blame is distributed 39% to Democrats, 56% to Republicans (38% to Trump, 18% to Congressional Reps) - no doubt along party lines. Note that 39% is close (within the ±3% margin-of-error) to Trump's approval lately - at 36% on 1/21 - down from 38% on 1/14. To me “waxed" means something akin to being discredited to the point of irrelevance.

The beat goes on.

William, who on MSM says Schumer got waxed? or similar words? Please provide a link.

I’ll strike this demand for a link. Not that I found any on MSM (NBC,ABC,CBS), but that it is too demanding (don’t want to demand that much from posters). I did find a Politco article that said Democrats get rolled in shutdown standoff and the RW Press (NY Post, Fox News, the Federalist) is all over this characterization.
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