Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby KeithE » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:50 am

William Thornton wrote:Let's see...Dave introduces a 40 year old argument which is received as cogent and insightful by my mod lib/Trumphating hair-on-fire friends. Jim and I harken back a mere 20 years to disdain and ridicule.

Guess I need to overnight an extra supply of adult coloring books (stress relievers, not psycho treatment). Maybe Medicare covers it. Get try a few myself.

Why don't you guys have your own ihatetrump forum? Make it private. Have fun. Make some new friends. Congratulate each other for your wisdom and insight.

History is fair game. It works as an argument when it is relevant.

Dave’s remembrance of FBC-Dallas past (40 years ago) is certainly on topic (about churches / pastors support to politicians).
William’s harkening back to Bill Clinton’s infidelities (20 years ago) as President is also on-subject of this topic.
Don’t see the tie-in in Jim’s mention of the the Iranian hostage situation.
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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby William Thornton » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:07 am

It's only relevant if it's relevant. Maybe Gerry was saying Jeffress is a racist like Criswell was half a century ago but I don't think so. Maybe he was saying that FBCD is a racist church but I didn't quite get that.
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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby Sandy » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:43 am

Jim wrote:
KeithE wrote: ...it is clear that Trump does not agree with the sentiment on the Statue of Liberty at a major entry point for immigrants:
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

This indicates the self-righteousness and superciliousness exhibited by people who either don't understand the difference in the U.S, between the 1830-1920 era and the current era or just don't care for anything but propagandizing like the empty suits at MSNBC's Morning Joe crowd. Maybe it gives a goose-bumpy warm-hugs feeling that lesser folks lack – that sensitivity thing. People of like circumstances, no matter their places of origin, came in the former era to be free and work. They were desperately needed to make the nation what it is, a place where their progeny flourishes. They learned the language, broke their backs and were given no handouts. On Sunday morning, Chris Wallace (Fox) asked the secretary of Homeland Security if the president would rather an emigre be a janitor from Norway or a doctor from Haiti. She was too kind to point out the sheer stupidity of the question as well as the obvious answer, namely, whether a need existed for either. NBC's Chuck Todd asked Andrew Young about the race-thing (Trump being the leverage) and Young, an educated black fired from his UN ambassadorship by Jimmy Carter, tried to explain just what I've noted...times have changed. The U.S was not the dumping-ground of the unneeded in the former era and certainly is not that now. Todd even asked Young if Trump is a Christian and Young was too kind to indicate Todd's jackass-mentality at the most profound level.


There are political philosophies which hold the perspective that a country's immigration policy should be driven by the country's need for the people who want to come. Historically, these philosophies have generally played themselves out when one country occupies another, and then goes through a selection process to separate the "needed" from the "useless." The basic philosophy belonged to Karl Marx. The more intense version had its origins in a philosophy developed by a Frenchman, Georges Sorel, and found its most intense expression in neighboring Italy, in the form of Mussolini's Fascist state. The other philosophy that depended on the view was developed by Karl Mark.
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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:54 am

Joseph Patrick wrote:Joseph Patrick...aka Gerry Milligan
I want to thank both William and Jim for reading and commenting on this thread, even though they insisted on talking about 20 and 40 year old events. Not sure how those attempts to get the focus off of a garbage mouthed, lying, adulterous and obfuscating commander in chief and his sycophant at FBC Dallas relate to this thread...but keep trying. Myself, I wonder what the good folks at FBC Dallas think.


Gerry - At which sin do we draw the line in saying that a Pastor needs to distance himself from such a President?

You give a heavy list and I am not saying he is innocent or guilty but how many sins do there need to be before Pastor needs to stay away?

I'm ok with coming up with a number of sins or kind of sins to make your point but then I have to ask... Who gets to draw the line, build the wall?
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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby Sandy » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:06 am

Jon Estes wrote:
Joseph Patrick wrote:Joseph Patrick...aka Gerry Milligan
I want to thank both William and Jim for reading and commenting on this thread, even though they insisted on talking about 20 and 40 year old events. Not sure how those attempts to get the focus off of a garbage mouthed, lying, adulterous and obfuscating commander in chief and his sycophant at FBC Dallas relate to this thread...but keep trying. Myself, I wonder what the good folks at FBC Dallas think.


Gerry - At which sin do we draw the line in saying that a Pastor needs to distance himself from such a President?

You give a heavy list and I am not saying he is innocent or guilty but how many sins do there need to be before Pastor needs to stay away?

I'm ok with coming up with a number of sins or kind of sins to make your point but then I have to ask... Who gets to draw the line, build the wall?


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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby Joseph Patrick » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:28 am

Jon Estes wrote:
Joseph Patrick wrote:Joseph Patrick...aka Gerry Milligan
I want to thank both William and Jim for reading and commenting on this thread, even though they insisted on talking about 20 and 40 year old events. Not sure how those attempts to get the focus off of a garbage mouthed, lying, adulterous and obfuscating commander in chief and his sycophant at FBC Dallas relate to this thread...but keep trying. Myself, I wonder what the good folks at FBC Dallas think.


Gerry - At which sin do we draw the line in saying that a Pastor needs to distance himself from such a President?

You give a heavy list and I am not saying he is innocent or guilty but how many sins do there need to be before Pastor needs to stay away?

I'm ok with coming up with a number of sins or kind of sins to make your point but then I have to ask... Who gets to draw the line, build the wall?


Jon, I see more than one area which would keep me from identifying with someone. Scriptural Prov.4:24 and Eph.4:29. A second area is cultural, i.e. is this behavior/speech accepted in normal society. A third is pastoral what would be your churches reaction if you used the words in a sermon?

This does not negate a witness toward the offender, but not supporting their behavior/speech.
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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby Jim » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:28 pm

Sandy wrote:
Jim wrote:
KeithE wrote: ...it is clear that Trump does not agree with the sentiment on the Statue of Liberty at a major entry point for immigrants:
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

This indicates the self-righteousness and superciliousness exhibited by people who either don't understand the difference in the U.S, between the 1830-1920 era and the current era or just don't care for anything but propagandizing like the empty suits at MSNBC's Morning Joe crowd. Maybe it gives a goose-bumpy warm-hugs feeling that lesser folks lack – that sensitivity thing. People of like circumstances, no matter their places of origin, came in the former era to be free and work. They were desperately needed to make the nation what it is, a place where their progeny flourishes. They learned the language, broke their backs and were given no handouts. On Sunday morning, Chris Wallace (Fox) asked the secretary of Homeland Security if the president would rather an emigre be a janitor from Norway or a doctor from Haiti. She was too kind to point out the sheer stupidity of the question as well as the obvious answer, namely, whether a need existed for either. NBC's Chuck Todd asked Andrew Young about the race-thing (Trump being the leverage) and Young, an educated black fired from his UN ambassadorship by Jimmy Carter, tried to explain just what I've noted...times have changed. The U.S was not the dumping-ground of the unneeded in the former era and certainly is not that now. Todd even asked Young if Trump is a Christian and Young was too kind to indicate Todd's jackass-mentality at the most profound level.


There are political philosophies which hold the perspective that a country's immigration policy should be driven by the country's need for the people who want to come. Historically, these philosophies have generally played themselves out when one country occupies another, and then goes through a selection process to separate the "needed" from the "useless." The basic philosophy belonged to Karl Marx. The more intense version had its origins in a philosophy developed by a Frenchman, Georges Sorel, and found its most intense expression in neighboring Italy, in the form of Mussolini's Fascist state. The other philosophy that depended on the view was developed by Karl Mark.
Perfect examples: Germany, France, England. The Caucasian population in decrease, thus lack of resource-persons to pay pensions, for schools, etc. VOILA!!! Invite Muslims, over a million in Germany alone in just the last year or so. As Muslims breed like rabbits and white folks less and less, the Muslims take over and weed-out the whites they don't butcher or make pay exorbitant taxes, according to the Koran, with Christians and Jews always looking to the rear. Have you had an attack of Truth or did you just sit and capture it? In 1940 or so, the French didn't exactly invite the Germans to take residence, along with taking the country, but the French also didn't try to discourage the Germans, so would Karl MarK have appreciated them? Lenin certainly would have and Hitler believed it so much that he did a “show-and-tell.”
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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:10 pm

Joseph Patrick wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
Joseph Patrick wrote:Joseph Patrick...aka Gerry Milligan
I want to thank both William and Jim for reading and commenting on this thread, even though they insisted on talking about 20 and 40 year old events. Not sure how those attempts to get the focus off of a garbage mouthed, lying, adulterous and obfuscating commander in chief and his sycophant at FBC Dallas relate to this thread...but keep trying. Myself, I wonder what the good folks at FBC Dallas think.


Gerry - At which sin do we draw the line in saying that a Pastor needs to distance himself from such a President?

You give a heavy list and I am not saying he is innocent or guilty but how many sins do there need to be before Pastor needs to stay away?

I'm ok with coming up with a number of sins or kind of sins to make your point but then I have to ask... Who gets to draw the line, build the wall?


Jon, I see more than one area which would keep me from identifying with someone. Scriptural Prov.4:24 and Eph.4:29. A second area is cultural, i.e. is this behavior/speech accepted in normal society. A third is pastoral what would be your churches reaction if you used the words in a sermon?

This does not negate a witness toward the offender, but not supporting their behavior/speech.


My point is... Every President has sinful behaviors... gosh, even I do. How sinful does a President need to be to not be President? I have my parameters. I need to have them to be able to vote.

In trying to relate this to my language I would use in church makes no sense. EBCI was not calling or voting in a President.

To answer your original thread.

FBCD is a SBC church as long as they want to be. The Pastors support of and relationship with Trump has nothing to do with the churches relationship with the SBC at this point. It could be someone brings a motion to remove them at the June meeting though doubtful.

Why Jeffries connects himself as he does is odd to me. FBCD would do better with him focused on the church more... but that’s me. I no longer attend there.

On a side note... I did not vote for Trump. Never intended too. Neither did I or would I vote for HRC or Bernie. Their sin list and far left ideologies were too great for me.
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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby Sandy » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:28 pm

Jim wrote:Perfect examples: Germany, France, England. The Caucasian population in decrease, thus lack of resource-persons to pay pensions, for schools, etc. VOILA!!! Invite Muslims, over a million in Germany alone in just the last year or so. As Muslims breed like rabbits and white folks less and less, the Muslims take over and weed-out the whites they don't butcher or make pay exorbitant taxes, according to the Koran, with Christians and Jews always looking to the rear. Have you had an attack of Truth or did you just sit and capture it? In 1940 or so, the French didn't exactly invite the Germans to take residence, along with taking the country, but the French also didn't try to discourage the Germans, so would Karl MarK have appreciated them? Lenin certainly would have and Hitler believed it so much that he did a “show-and-tell.”


So, you are saying that Lenin and Hitler were justified in selecting, and exterminating the "useless" populations of the countries they occupied? So according to your view, if people aren't providing resources for pensions and schools, then rounding them up, putting them in concentration camps and exterminating them is the solution to the problem.

While I do see that there are Muslims who have become engaged in the culture of Germany, England and France, among other countries, I don't see anything like you describe developing anywhere. There's no "weeding out" of the whites. They participate in the economy, pay taxes, operate businesses and provide labor just like anyone else does. They serve in the military, in relatively high numbers in Britain and France, and have for quite some time through colonial service. Given the number of Muslims who have been butchered, on their own territory, by French, British and German soldiers through the past several centuries, there's not anything even close to that happening in Europe.

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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:54 pm

William Thornton wrote:I think Sandy's talking about Bill Clinton.


Bill had his moments. But its pretty hard to compare Bill to the President with multiple marriages, possible affairs with a porn star, wives who pose for Play Boy, companies he has cheated out of money, bills he has never paid, tax returns he has never released, Nazis he has given aid and comfort to, racist remarks he has made etc. etc. etc.

If we are going to start comparing Presidents while Clinton may have step into the crap on occasion, Donald Trump wallows in it while denying the whole time that he is covered in it. The very fact that any time someone points out Trumps gross indecencies some evangelical brings up Bill Clinton just proves Sandy's point. Evangelical ethics in the support of Trump is morally and spiritually bankrupt.

I will go so far as to say I've seen Christians lose faith in the Church as a whole over evangelical support of Trump. Evangelicals are doing damage to the Kingdom of God any time one of their leaders supports this sh*th*le President. (Or if you prefer sh*thouse.)
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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby William Thornton » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:02 pm

Actually, it's not difficult to compare Clinton and trump.
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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby Haruo » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:18 pm

Trump did not pay hush money to the porn starlet. His lawyer paid it to her lawyer. Big difference. And he didn't call Haiti and Africa #@&*%hole countries, either. He called them #@&*%house countries. [H]UGE difference. Not that these fine points have a bearing on the SBCness of FBCD. But seriously, none of the above is true of Hillary. Or even Bill.
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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby Sandy » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:28 pm

William Thornton wrote:Actually, it's not difficult to compare Clinton and trump.


You're right, it is not difficult to compare. Clinton looks like a Southern Baptist Sunday School teacher next to Trump. And that's a factual, valid, and reasonable comparison. Pretty easy, eh?

It also makes it relatively easy to see the hypocrisy of the religious right. The standards they use to evaluate Clinton have been abandoned and ignored when it comes to Trump. So continuing to reference Clinton is just a continuous reference to their hypocrisy. And it is a back-door acknowledgement of the fact that everything that's being said about Trump is true.

It's interesting that you don't see extremist right wing religious conservatives drawing a comparison between Trump and Obama. After eight years of obstructionism and simmering racist hatred, the last thing they want to do is make Barack Obama look that good.
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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby William Thornton » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:08 pm

Fire extinguisher needed?
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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:09 pm

William Thornton wrote:Fire extinguisher needed?


Do you need to be extinguished? Might refer to you in the future as "that extinguished gentleman." :D
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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby Jim » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:28 pm

Sandy wrote:
Jim wrote:Perfect examples: Germany, France, England. The Caucasian population in decrease, thus lack of resource-persons to pay pensions, for schools, etc. VOILA!!! Invite Muslims, over a million in Germany alone in just the last year or so. As Muslims breed like rabbits and white folks less and less, the Muslims take over and weed-out the whites they don't butcher or make pay exorbitant taxes, according to the Koran, with Christians and Jews always looking to the rear. Have you had an attack of Truth or did you just sit and capture it? In 1940 or so, the French didn't exactly invite the Germans to take residence, along with taking the country, but the French also didn't try to discourage the Germans, so would Karl MarK have appreciated them? Lenin certainly would have and Hitler believed it so much that he did a “show-and-tell.”


So, you are saying that Lenin and Hitler were justified in selecting, and exterminating the "useless" populations of the countries they occupied?

Of course! Wouldn't you? The Italian soldiers when they quit the war in 1943, instead of turning on the Germans, laid down their arms and were trucked off to concentration camps and German munitions factories, thereby leaving their families to Hitler's goons. Doesn't that seem perfectly reasonable to you?

So according to your view, if people aren't providing resources for pensions and schools, then rounding them up, putting them in concentration camps and exterminating them is the solution to the problem.
Actually, I think it would be better to just tax them heavily and put them on 75-hour work-weeks. Exterminating them would destroy the labor windfall, but to each his own. Maybe you have a better idea.

While I do see that there are Muslims who have become engaged in the culture of Germany, England and France, among other countries, I don't see anything like you describe developing anywhere. There's no "weeding out" of the whites.
Oh come now! They do shoot up theaters and arenas occasionally, which seems perfectly reasonable and also helps out in the weeding process. Just blowing up subways and buses makes a magnificent statement about a superior culture -- Sharia Law.

They participate in the economy, pay taxes, operate businesses and provide labor just like anyone else does. They serve in the military, in relatively high numbers in Britain and France, and have for quite some time through colonial service. Given the number of Muslims who have been butchered, on their own territory, by French, British and German soldiers through the past several centuries, there's not anything even close to that happening in Europe.
Ah...but they don't do enough. If infidels aren't made to scream at least twice a day, some Muslim is not doing his duty. And, more to the point, Muslims kill millions more MUSLIMS then mere infidels, so give them some credit for taking care of their own. French, British, and German soldiers will just have to work harder. They simply have lain down on the job and have through the past several centuries. Wouldn't you agree?

People are people, and race doesn't matter.


I didn't know people are people. Thanks. That's sort of like Bubba defining IS, isn't it? Cool! Have you thought of a career in philosophy?
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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:02 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:Do you need to be extinguished? Might refer to you in the future as "that extinguished gentleman."
"My, doesn't William look so extinguished!" :)
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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby William Thornton » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:13 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Fire extinguisher needed?


Do you need to be extinguished? Might refer to you in the future as "that extinguished gentleman." :D


One of my favorite word plays... :D
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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby Sandy » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:40 pm

Jim wrote:I didn't know people are people.


Obviously. And you also don't know that race doesn't matter.
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Re: Is FBC Dallas really a SBC church?

Postby Jim » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:45 am

Sandy wrote:
Jim wrote:I didn't know people are people.


Obviously. And you also don't know that race doesn't matter.

Do you mean it does? Have I missed something here? Do you mean that an employer should hire only the ethnics he desires because race doesn't matter and he can just ignore it, hire only blacks or whites as he sees fit? The government made quotas into law in the 1960s because it thought race matters. Of course, that system got out of hand, except for Justice Sotomayor, who as a district solon had her ruling about the Connecticut firemen overturned as she was being confirmed, and the courts had to finally rule here and there that race mattered too much since whites were becoming the new victims. As victim-hood gains popularity, as evidenced in the Me-Too movement (sorta like Black Lives Matter), except (unlike the black population) that women are not in the minority, but who cares. Like I'm sure you agree and Obama made it the keystone of every consideration/decision, race is ALL that matters.
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