Democratic senator Franken resigns

The place to discuss politics and policy issues that are not directly related to matters of faith.

Moderator: KeithE

Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby William Thornton » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:26 pm

Does anyone care?
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11806
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:41 pm

William Thornton wrote:Does anyone care?


Depending on what you mean by "care," yes I'm glad he resigned. I can't expect the GOP to work to keep Roy Moore out of congress if I'm not willing to believe that Democrats who harass women should get the same treatment.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5562
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby KeithE » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:56 pm

William Thornton wrote:Does anyone care?


Yes I wish he had stayed. I am more interested on the current character and positions on policy issues than one’s sexual past, 10-20-30-40-50 years ago.

I was against Moore well before any sexual allegations.

I hope Franken continues to be a voice for the progressives perhaps with a special focus on sexual harassment policies.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8403
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:01 pm

And to be clear, if we are going to put things on a scale, chasing after under-aged girls is even more despicable. But, if Franken forced himself on women of any age, he clearly has a problem. If we don't hold men accountable it just perpetuates the problem. Given that it wasn't just one woman a long time ago in some "misunderstanding" but multiple accusations, Franken's actions seem to show a pattern of misbehavior.

I always liked Franken and I'm sorry that he has wrecked not only his political career but his opportunity to stand up for the issues he has been an advocate for.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5562
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby Rvaughn » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:22 pm

William Thornton wrote:Does anyone care?
I care that women not be assaulted. As far as Al Franken I hardly know anything about, nor care anything about him one way or the other. He appears to be one of many sleazebags in our Congress. I don't think his departure changes much, unless, for example, a Republican was to win his seat. (And that would only be a political change and not necessarily a sleazebag change.)

I was told by someone in the know that there is a "creeps list" (of Congress folks and those who work with them) in Austin, Texas that is secretly shared with new folks who come to work at the Capital. I was recently told that such a list also exists in Washington. I don't know that for sure, but it is sad (that it is needed) and probably true.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 606
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby William Thornton » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:55 pm

KeithE wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Does anyone care?


Yes I wish he had stayed. I am more interested on the current character and positions on policy issues than one’s sexual past, 10-20-30-40-50 years ago.

I was against Moore well before any sexual allegations.

I hope Franken continues to be a voice for the progressives perhaps with a special focus on sexual harassment policies.


Never cared for the clown but don't think he should have resigned over this. He wouldn't have if the governor was a Republican.

Never liked Moore either and wouldn't have voted for him but if Franken's sexual past is not disqualifying to you, why is Moore's? I know of no current allegations against Moore.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11806
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby Sandy » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:57 pm

Yes I care. Regardless of his political position, and in spite of his career as an entertainer, neither of those things excuse his behavior. We hold leaders like him up as role models for our kids, and it has not been easy, trying to explain to intelligent, thoughtful, middle and high school students who hold their faith closely why character matters sometimes, but if the guy agrees with your political position, it is OK to ignore his character. What kids are learning from the evangelical support of Trump, and now of Moore, is Machiavellian, and diametrically antithetical to a Biblical, Christian worldview.

On a lighter note, you have those nasty, far left winger, godless, liberal Democrats pushing for the removal of a senator and a member of congress of their own party based on their moral behavior, regardless of the political cost, and you have the self-righteous, sneering, ultra right wing conservative Republicans supporting a president with 12 open and provable accusations of sexual assault, and a whole litany of self-described immorality, and pushing for the election of a child molester to the senate. If actions really do speak louder than words, then there's been a major paradigm shift in the political world regarding social issues and character requirements. This isn't getting lost on people, either.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8172
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:02 pm

I guess William the question for public service is do we put a statue of limitations on pedophiles? Maybe legally you have to. But I don't want an unrepentant pedophile in congress.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5562
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby William Thornton » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:25 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:I guess William the question for public service is do we put a statue of limitations on pedophiles? Maybe legally you have to. But I don't want an unrepentant pedophile in congress.


One of the accusers was under age. That make's the label stick for you?
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11806
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby William Thornton » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:37 pm

I'm way ahead of all of you on Moore...have been for years.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11806
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:43 pm

William Thornton wrote:
One of the accusers was under age. That make's the label stick for you?


If there stories about him trolling the mall are true it is likely more than one under age girl. But yes, if he molested one under age girl, he is a pedophile. One rape is a rapist. One murder is a murderer.

In one of my previous denominational connections a pastor lost his ministry over molesting one young girl. We didn't need a second molestation to decide he shouldn't be serving.

Even when I disagree with southern evangelicals, I at least thought they were champions of personal morality. If you'd told me during the era of the Moral Majority that some day evangelicals would vote in droves for politicians accused of multiple counts of sexual misconduct I'd have laughed at you.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5562
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby William Thornton » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:51 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
William Thornton wrote:
One of the accusers was under age. That make's the label stick for you?


If there stories about him trolling the mall are true it is likely more than one under age girl. But yes, if he molested one under age girl, he is a pedophile. One rape is a rapist. One murder is a murderer.

In one of my previous denominational connections a pastor lost his ministry over molesting one young girl. We didn't need a second molestation to decide he shouldn't be serving.

Even when I disagree with southern evangelicals, I at least thought they were champions of personal morality. If you'd told me during the era of the Moral Majority that some day evangelicals would vote in droves for politicians accused of multiple counts of sexual misconduct I'd have laughed at you.


That he liked HS girls is attested by many. I don't think its charitable to label him a pedophile absent more evidence.

I said elsewhere that Roy Moore exposed Alabama Baptists. Ten Commandments champion? Hah.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11806
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby Rvaughn » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:18 pm

Sandy wrote:...regardless of the political cost...
I'm cynical enough of politicians to believe that most of them do everything with an eye on the political cost. In Minnesota, a Democratic Governor will appoint someone to fill out Franken's term, and I expect that Conyers's seat is safe for the Democrats as well.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 606
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:52 pm

William Thornton wrote:That he liked HS girls is attested by many. I don't think its charitable to label him a pedophile absent more evidence.

I said elsewhere that Roy Moore exposed Alabama Baptists. Ten Commandments champion? Hah.


William, I could be wrong. But seldom do multiple accusations like this turn out to be all false. And given his tendency already to flout the law and even SCOTUS because he thinks he is right, above the law, and everyone else is wrong, doesn’t bode well for his attitude about accepted conventions of behavior in other areas of his life.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5562
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby Sandy » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:13 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
Sandy wrote:...regardless of the political cost...
I'm cynical enough of politicians to believe that most of them do everything with an eye on the political cost. In Minnesota, a Democratic Governor will appoint someone to fill out Franken's term, and I expect that Conyers's seat is safe for the Democrats as well.


That dog ain't a gonna hunt, as they'd say in Alabama, where the Republicans are going ahead and supporting a child molesting piece of trash running for the senate. By comparison, what they are doing is far worse, but it is even more deplorable that the sitting President, a member of their party, actually sexually assaulted women and bragged about doing it, but no Republicans are putting pressure on him to resign. Franken is resigning, and the Democrats are getting credit for taking the high ground here, because the Republicans still have Trump and Moore.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8172
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby KeithE » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:36 pm

William Thornton wrote:
KeithE wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Does anyone care?


Yes I wish he had stayed. I am more interested on the current character and positions on policy issues than one’s sexual past, 10-20-30-40-50 years ago.

I was against Moore well before any sexual allegations.

I hope Franken continues to be a voice for the progressives perhaps with a special focus on sexual harassment policies.


Never cared for the clown but don't think he should have resigned over this. He wouldn't have if the governor was a Republican.

Never liked Moore either and wouldn't have voted for him but if Franken's sexual past is not disqualifying to you, why is Moore's? I know of no current allegations against Moore.

{red mine}

Where have you been wrt allegations against Moore?? Did you mean new sexual allegations occurring since Moore was say 40? I agree if that is what you meant.

As I said here Moore’s past sexual actions would (even against several underaged girls) not be a disqualifier for me, if his current character was more repentive and less demogogic (?) and his political positions were much more progressive and not as xenophobic as they are.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8403
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby William Thornton » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:57 am

Most of my stuff goes on SBC Voices these days. Here's a selection of articles and comments:

A selection of quotes by and generated by Roy Moore, for whom every pundit, journalist, and political blogger is exceedingly thankful: “Not generally, no…If did, you know, I’m not going to dispute anything but I don’t remember anything like that.” referring to dating teens when he was in his 30s. If not “generally” then “occasionally”? Well, equivocation is the word for this. One Alabama Baptist pastor did not equivocate: He is a religious demagogue,” sayeth the brother who did not want to be named. “If he did it, we need to know that” one prominent Alabama Baptist boldly declares concerning the assertions of numerous women. Since a confession is not forthcoming, what exactly does the brother demand as proof? Video evidence? Not an abundance of profiles in courage here…but a few dozen Baptist pastors are against sex abuse in general. That’s good to know.


I think the general charge that Moore liked teens when he was in his 30s is as well and proven as anything can be.


This is rather lame, Rick, and saying he will not be charged with a crime is a cheap dodge. I understand that we want to stand by our guy but you’ve got much other than the yearbook: multiple accusers, other contemporary witnesses to his behavior and predelictions. Most troubling is Moore himself who has not denied that he liked teens but equivocated.

This is the Ten Commandments guy, lying by not telling the truth. We all make our moral choices. Evidently, pragmatism – getting elected – rules here rather than truth.


Roy Moore exposes Alabama Baptists. Alabama senatorial candidate and former judge, Roy Moore, who made a living being the Ten Commandments judge, has multiple, credible reports of his involvement with teenagers while he was in his 30s. This has put a major constituency, conservative Southern Baptists in Alabama, in a bit of a bind. While details of some of the accusers may be debated and the accusations go decades in the past, the fact that there are so many accusers and witnesses makes it difficult to deny that his behavior was abhorrent. If the Ten Commandments guy doesn’t see his way to tell the truth about his past, that puts those who preach and teach “Thou shalt not bear false witness” in a tight spot. Whether he is elected or not, we will know next week. Either way, religious conservatives don’t look so good after this.


Moore was around here when my county had a Ten Commandments lawsuit which they eventually lost. Never cared for the guy for many reasons. Wouldn't vote for him. Religious demagogue. We can do better but Alabama Baptists might not.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11806
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:11 am

Sandy wrote:That dog ain't a gonna hunt, as they'd say in Alabama, where the Republicans are going ahead and supporting a child molesting piece of trash running for the senate. By comparison, what they are doing is far worse, but it is even more deplorable that the sitting President, a member of their party, actually sexually assaulted women and bragged about doing it, but no Republicans are putting pressure on him to resign. Franken is resigning, and the Democrats are getting credit for taking the high ground here, because the Republicans still have Trump and Moore.
Of course it will hunt. Already is. Who doesn't believe that some Democratic politicians aren't doing what they're doing just so they can get credit for taking the moral high ground? You, I suppose. Of course you give Paul Ryan no credit for asking Trent Franks of Arizona to step down, or perhaps helping hasten Republican Representative Tim Murphy move on down the road. Who knows why he hasn't asked (or pressured) Republican Texas Representative Blake Farenthold to resign (seems that would be a expectation of a Republican replacement).

I think you're trying to make too much sense out of it apart from politics. In a crowd that takes test votes so some of them can decide which way to vote when the real vote comes down, don't be too surprised that they do have an eye out for political cost and political benefit. (And yes that is both sides, even if you can't bring yourself to admit it.)
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 606
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:16 pm

I read and grieve the ways that powerful men have approached women as objects, not as persons. The objectifying of human beings is deplorable in any context. Franken needed to go as does the Arizona representative talking surrogacy with his staff assuming he was seeking conception from himself. Moore needs to be repudiated by the GOP. Trump needs to be treated for what he has confessed to being. Oh, yes, and we all need to take responsibility for our actions toward others. It is a sad state for the country to have allowed so much in Washington to become a festering sewer rather than the leading examples of decency. A king who once thought he was above the law had to humble himself before God praying, "Create in me a clean heart, o God, and renew a right spirit within me." I don't hear that prayer in our national discourse.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6958
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby Jim » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:22 pm

The interesting thing about this discussion is that all allegations against men brought by women are automatically believed, never mind no actual proof of wrongdoing (whatever wrongdoing is these days). The allegations are submitted to news organizations, not to the courts, suggesting that a political rather than a criminal/moral basis frames the issue. I believe neither Moore nor the women since neither presents any explanation other than “he said, she said.” With Franken and Conyers, concrete proof, besides admission in Franken's case, frames the issue, although in Moore's case no charge was ever made despite his numerous campaigns until now, making one wonder who prompted the women, after their waiting for up to 40 years, to suddenly go public, thus the justifiable smell-test. The Clarence Thomas case was/is instructive. Anita Hill was practically arm-twisted (or well-paid?) for weeks into obtaining her 15 minutes of fame. The notion that women are morally superior to men is and always has been false. Women (only as a “professional” matter) since the beginning have sold their bodies for whatever objective. Men have sold theirs for fighting wars, suggesting that men might be considered at least one percent as pure as women. Both share equally in terms of morality. Any man who has ever worked in proximity to women (teachers, ministers, military, etc.) knows that a woman bent on revenge for any reason such as being “dumped” or refused a passing grade can ruin a man's life by simply making a charge, no proof needed. The vice-versa is also true and only the most naïve believes that women have never “offered” themselves as remittance for a favor, promotion, etc. The Clintons are the perfect example of male-female equality when it comes to evil. Trump is no saint and Hillary gives women a bad rap, with plenty of proof, as does trump for men.
Jim
 
Posts: 3603
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:44 pm
Location: Lexington, Ky.

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby Haruo » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:41 pm

I still want to know about the retired cop's statement.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11682
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby Sandy » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:45 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
Sandy wrote:That dog ain't a gonna hunt, as they'd say in Alabama, where the Republicans are going ahead and supporting a child molesting piece of trash running for the senate. By comparison, what they are doing is far worse, but it is even more deplorable that the sitting President, a member of their party, actually sexually assaulted women and bragged about doing it, but no Republicans are putting pressure on him to resign. Franken is resigning, and the Democrats are getting credit for taking the high ground here, because the Republicans still have Trump and Moore.
Of course it will hunt. Already is. Who doesn't believe that some Democratic politicians aren't doing what they're doing just so they can get credit for taking the moral high ground? You, I suppose. Of course you give Paul Ryan no credit for asking Trent Franks of Arizona to step down, or perhaps helping hasten Republican Representative Tim Murphy move on down the road. Who knows why he hasn't asked (or pressured) Republican Texas Representative Blake Farenthold to resign (seems that would be a expectation of a Republican replacement).

I think you're trying to make too much sense out of it apart from politics. In a crowd that takes test votes so some of them can decide which way to vote when the real vote comes down, don't be too surprised that they do have an eye out for political cost and political benefit. (And yes that is both sides, even if you can't bring yourself to admit it.)


Franks stepped down on his own, as did Murphy, whom I have met. The problems Republicans have is Moore and Trump. The Democrats will have the moral high ground as long as the blatant and incredible hypocrisy regarding those two keeps going. Franks, Murphy, Joe Barton, those are all congressmen who stepped down on their own rather than face their consistuency. They are not equal to Moore orTrump, where the Republican hypocrisy is blatant and glaring. Sorry, not buying it.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8172
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby Rvaughn » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:02 am

William Thornton wrote:Democratic senator Franken resigns
Some are trying to make a mountain out of what might be a molehill, but apparently Franken did not "resign" but announced he "will be resigning." I went back and listened to him and he did say it this way, "I am announcing that in the coming weeks, I will be resigning as a member of the United States Senate." The latest spin is that he has delayed it long enough to see whether Moore gets elected and might renege on his resignation.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 606
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby Rvaughn » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:06 am

Sandy wrote:Franks stepped down on his own, as did Murphy, whom I have met. The problems Republicans have is Moore and Trump. The Democrats will have the moral high ground as long as the blatant and incredible hypocrisy regarding those two keeps going. Franks, Murphy, Joe Barton, those are all congressmen who stepped down on their own rather than face their consistuency. They are not equal to Moore or Trump, where the Republican hypocrisy is blatant and glaring. Sorry, not buying it.
Republican hypocrisy notwithstanding in the cases of Trump and Moore, you have intriguingly pointed to three Republican congressmen stepping down on their own (as you say), in contrast to Conyers and Franken having to be forced out by their party. Yet you are unable to see that neither side has any "high ground" on this.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 606
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Democratic senator Franken resigns

Postby Haruo » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:12 am

Rvaughn wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Democratic senator Franken resigns
Some are trying to make a mountain out of what might be a molehill, but apparently Franken did not "resign" but announced he "will be resigning." I went back and listened to him and he did say it this way, "I am announcing that in the coming weeks, I will be resigning as a member of the United States Senate." The latest spin is that he has delayed it long enough to see whether Moore gets elected and might renege on his resignation.

I think the governor of Minnesota is a Democrat, which negates the importance of countering Moore with Franken.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11682
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Next

Return to Politics and Public Policy Issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Jon Estes and 2 guests