Flynn’s Plea

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Flynn’s Plea

Postby KeithE » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:20 pm

Signed Plea

More to come. Give your impressions here as matters proceed.
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Re: Flynn’s Plea

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:11 am

KeithE wrote:Signed Plea

More to come. Give your impressions here as matters proceed.


Much ado about nothing. No collusion here.
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Re: Flynn’s Plea

Postby William Thornton » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:28 am

ABC suspends reporter over it. My impression is that that was good.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/us/b ... d-abc.html
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Re: Flynn’s Plea

Postby KeithE » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:37 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:Signed Plea

More to come. Give your impressions here as matters proceed.


Much ado about nothing. No collusion here.


Parroting that line (following your supportee Trump) does not make it true. And it also shows a large degree of defensiveness. There is much yet to be investigated, not only about collusion, but obstruction of justice, perjury, business illegalities, and cover-up.

Collusion can mean many things-
- (1) working together on a common single cause
- (2) prearranging to do something in return for something else (e.g. assisting in an election in change for easing sanctions)
- (3) slow walking into a mutually agreeable relationship to benefit of each other
(none of these things are illegal or unethical if the causes or means they are using support honorable goals and do not have nefarious/illegal effects that take advantage of other people or people groups)

There is much evidence of collusions in a prearranged sense -
(1) Many Trump campaign meetings with Russians close to Putin,
(2) Trump himself calling for Wikileaks to release Hillary’s reported 30,000 emails,
(3) Flynn admission's that he was comforting Russia by saying sanctions would be relaxed when Trump was empowered
(4) Trump’s refusal to apply additional sanctions on Russia by Oct 1 (which was a near unanimous Congressional law passed and the Trump signed) even to this day Dec 3.
(5) Intel chiefs all saying Russia worked to help the Trump campaign.

This list (and more) is all evidence (tired of those who say there is no evidence of collusion just because some say there is no proof of such). Many lawyers believe there is a prima facie case already. But as all the Intel agencies said (at least the 4 big overacting agencies) Putin/Russia preferred Trump to win (although they kept dirt on both Hillary and Trump). So the collusion could be of the slow walking variety and developed over 2016 campaign and not prearranged or a worthy common single cause (e.g. world peace, hunger elimination) motivated. Now Arctic oil joint endeavor could be that common single cause.

But when one party or the other are caught lying to hide the collusion, there is usually something wrong/illegal/unethical about the relationship.

What are the causes and means involved? Russia wants to continue taking over previous USSR states unhindered (hardly an ethical or legal goal) by sanctions. Means have included clandestine meetings (violating the Logan Act in spirit and in truth), using hacked emails, dreaming up far news, lying, covering up facts.

This stinks and if you don’t smell this, you are have olfactory issues.
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Re: Flynn’s Plea

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:53 pm

KeithE wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:Signed Plea

More to come. Give your impressions here as matters proceed.


Much ado about nothing. No collusion here.


Parroting that line (following your supportee Trump) does not make it true. And it also shows a large degree of defensiveness. There is much yet to be investigated, not only about collusion, but obstruction of justice, perjury, business illegalities, and cover-up.

Collusion can mean many things-
- (1) working together on a common single cause
- (2) prearranging to do something in return for something else (e.g. assisting in an election in change for easing sanctions)
- (3) slow walking into a mutually agreeable relationship to benefit of each other
(none of these things are illegal or unethical if the causes or means they are using support honorable goals and do not have nefarious/illegal effects that take advantage of other people or people groups)

There is much evidence of collusions in a prearranged sense -
(1) Many Trump campaign meetings with Russians close to Putin,
(2) Trump himself calling for Wikileaks to release Hillary’s reported 30,000 emails,
(3) Flynn admission's that he was comforting Russia by saying sanctions would be relaxed when Trump was empowered
(4) Trump’s refusal to apply additional sanctions on Russia by Oct 1 (which was a near unanimous Congressional law passed and the Trump signed) even to this day Dec 3.
(5) Intel chiefs all saying Russia worked to help the Trump campaign.

This list (and more) is all evidence (tired of those who say there is no evidence of collusion just because some say there is no proof of such). Many lawyers believe there is a prima facie case already. But as all the Intel agencies said (at least the 4 big overacting agencies) Putin/Russia preferred Trump to win (although they kept dirt on both Hillary and Trump). So the collusion could be of the slow walking variety and developed over 2016 campaign and not prearranged or a worthy common single cause (e.g. world peace, hunger elimination) motivated. Now Arctic oil joint endeavor could be that common single cause.

But when one party or the other are caught lying to hide the collusion, there is usually something wrong/illegal/unethical about the relationship.

What are the causes and means involved? Russia wants to continue taking over previous USSR states unhindered (hardly an ethical or legal goal) by sanctions. Means have included clandestine meetings (violating the Logan Act in spirit and in truth), using hacked emails, dreaming up far news, lying, covering up facts.

This stinks and if you don’t smell this, you are have olfactory issues.


Your love for a conspiracy is showing.... lol... it always is.

No collusion.

No matter how much you say there is doesn’t make it true.
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Re: Flynn’s Plea

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:33 am

Best response all weekend was an editorial cartoon I saw of Ivanka leaning over 45's head whispering, "Daddy, will I have to go to jail too?"
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Re: Flynn’s Plea

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:46 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:Best response all weekend was an editorial cartoon I saw of Ivanka leaning over 45's head whispering, "Daddy, will I have to go to jail too?"


Ouch!
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Re: Flynn’s Plea

Postby Sandy » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:45 pm

If you're actually paying attention to any of the facts that are out there, you know that to say there was "no collusion" is ignoring facts that have already been proven, including some of the content of the information that was exchanged. It is established fact that the Russians were putting out feelers and making contacts with people who would make it possible for them to help Donald Trump. That's known, and proven. Even the evidence that the house and senate intel committees have publicly revealed prove that. The only mystery now is who, what, how much, and who knew. Flynn must have turned over a considerable amount of evidence, to elicit the kind of statements and tweets from the buffoon and his lawyers, and from the whole legal team, and to settle for the plea deal he got. Manifort must have quite a pile as well, considering that approach, and his legal team's response. If you can't see the collusion, and the trail of crumbs leading right up to Trump, then you're either blind or ignorant, or both. Or you're just ignoring the evidence and wrapped up in a bubble.
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Re: Flynn’s Plea

Postby Haruo » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:09 pm

Most of the evidence I've seen a is more about the Russians colluding with the Trump campaign, and it's not illegal, I imagine, for them to do so. The other way around would be criminal if not treasonous, but this way around the campaign's passive acceptance of the Russians' help is a great reason, as if you needed one, not to trust Trump or his associates, but probably not enough to make anything bigger than perjury stick to them provably.
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Re: Flynn’s Plea

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:28 pm

Haruo wrote:Most of the evidence I've seen a is more about the Russians colluding with the Trump campaign, and it's not illegal, I imagine, for them to do so. The other way around would be criminal if not treasonous, but this way around the campaign's passive acceptance of the Russians' help is a great reason, as if you needed one, not to trust Trump or his associates, but probably not enough to make anything bigger than perjury stick to them provably.


It is always the cover up that gets you.

It wasn’t Clinton’s affair that was illegal. It was the cover up of the affair that caused the biggest problem.

Trump’s firing of Comey and an obstruction of justice charge is what ultimately might be his downfall along with his constant denials followed by revelations like “I fired Flynn because he lied to the FBI.” Yet, he pushed Comey to go easy on him?

Even if Russian collusion can’t be proven by Trump the coverup and constant changing stories may catch up with him.
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Re: Flynn’s Plea

Postby KeithE » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:24 pm

Haruo wrote:Most of the evidence I've seen a is more about the Russians colluding with the Trump campaign, and it's not illegal, I imagine, for them to do so. The other way around would be criminal if not treasonous, but this way around the campaign's passive acceptance of the Russians' help is a great reason, as if you needed one, not to trust Trump or his associates, but probably not enough to make anything bigger than perjury stick to them provably.

I hear you Haruo, but:

(1) Trump (or his people) did change the GOP plank to be more favorable to the Russians/Putin wrt Ukraine. And I seriously doubt anyone else in the GOP/Trump sphere would have done that w/o the primary winners direction.

(2) Then Flynn admittedly tried to ensure Russian could expect relief for the sanctions Obama placed on them due to their meddling with our election when Trump was in power - read Paragraph 3 on page 2 and 3 in Flynn Plea Agreement in first post of this thread.

(3) Then in response to a Congressional Bill Trump was supposed to place additional sanctions on Russia by Oct 1, 2017 and he has not done so yet (even after he himself signed the Bill); won’t be the first time Trump’s signature does not mean a thing. Read Hundreds allege Donald Trump doesn’t pay his bills.

So there has been plenty give and take in both directions (probably a lot more that is not clear at this point). That means Trump / Putin exchanges have been, as your say, "criminal if not treasonous” on the part of Trump but not necessarily criminal or treasonous on the part of Putin.
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Re: Flynn’s Plea

Postby KeithE » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:37 pm

Haruo wrote:Most of the evidence I've seen a is more about the Russians colluding with the Trump campaign, and it's not illegal, I imagine, for them to do so. The other way around would be criminal if not treasonous, but this way around the campaign's passive acceptance of the Russians' help is a great reason, as if you needed one, not to trust Trump or his associates, but probably not enough to make anything bigger than perjury stick to them provably.

I hear you Haruo, but Trump has giving to Russia:

(1) Trump (or his people) did change the GOP plank to be more favorable to the Russians/Putin wrt Ukraine. And I seriously doubt anyone else in the GOP/Trump sphere would have done that w/o the GOP primary winner's direction.

(2) Then Flynn admittedly tried to ensure Russian could expect relief for the sanctions Obama placed on them due to their meddling with our election when Trump was in power - read Paragraph 3 on page 2 and 3 in Flynn Plea Agreement in first post of this thread.

(3) Then in response to a Congressional Bill Trump was supposed to place additional sanctions on Russia by Oct 1, 2017 and he has not done so yet (even after he himself signed the Bill); won’t be the first time Trump’s signature does not mean a thing. Read Hundreds allege Donald Trump doesn’t pay his bills.

(4) Putin has received noting but praise from Trump - what does Putin have on Trump?

So there has been plenty give and take in both directions (probably a lot more that is not clear at this point). That means Trump / Putin exchanges have been, as your say, "criminal if not treasonous” on the part of Trump but not necessarily criminal or treasonous on the part of Putin, unless there is some international law against tampering with other country’s elections.

BTW, Obstruction of Justice is provable right now, imo, if you look at the timeline.

Feb. 14, 2017: According to Comey’s Senate testimony: Comey and other IC leaders deliver a counterterrorism briefing at the Oval Office. Trump signals the end of the briefing by thanking everyone and saying he wanted to meet with Comey privately (Trump later denies this). Trump tells Comey, “I want to talk about Mike Flynn,” adding that Flynn had not done anything wrong but had to resign because he misled Pence. Trump then tells Comey, “I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go. He is a good guy. I hope you can let this go.” (Trump later denies this.)

According to Comey’s Senate testimony: Comey and other IC leaders deliver a counterterrorism briefing at the Oval Office. Trump signals the end of the briefing by thanking everyone and saying he wanted to meet with Comey privately (Trump later denies this). Trump tells Comey, “I want to talk about Mike Flynn,” adding that Flynn had not done anything wrong but had to resign because he misled Pence. Trump then tells Comey, “I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go. He is a good guy. I hope you can let this go.” (Trump later denies this.)


March 22, 2017: The Washington Post reports Director of National Intelligence Daniel Coats and other senior officials participate in an Oval Office briefing, after which Trump asks Coats and CIA Director Mike Pompeo to stay for a private meeting. Trump complains to them about Comey’s handling of the Russia investigation and asks them to intervene with Comey to get the FBI to stop investigating Flynn. During later Senate testimony, Coates and Pompeo refuse to answer questions about this meeting without offering an explanation of any legal basis for doing so.

Within a day or two of this meeting, Trump reportedly makes separate telephone calls to both Coats and NSA Director Adm. Michael Rogers, and requests that they issue public statements denying the existence of any evidence of collusion between Trump officials and the Russian government


March 30, 2017: According to Comey’s Senate testimony, Trump calls Comey at his office and tells Comey that the Russia investigation is a “cloud” inhibiting his ability to act as president. Trump assures Comey that he has had nothing to do with Russia and asks Comey what he can do to “lift the cloud.” Comey responds that the FBI is investigating the matter as quickly as it can, and that a full investigation is in Trump’s best interests.


May 9, 2017: Trump fires Comey from his post as FBI director.


May 11, 2017: In an interview with NBC News’s Lester Holt, Trump admits that even before he consulted Rosenstein, “I was going to fire Comey. There’s no good time to do it, by the way.” Holt mentions that in Trump’s letter outlining the reasons for Comey’s firing, he cited Rosenstein’s letter, and Trump responds, “Oh, I was going to fire regardless of recommendation.”


Dec 2, 2017 tweet by Trump (or was it his lawyer John Down :lol: : ) I had to fire General Flynn because he lied to the Vice President and the FBI. He has pled guilty to those lies. It is a shame because his actions during the transition were lawful. There was nothing to hide!


Apparently knowing the strong case that he has obstructed justice, the latest tactic is to say the President is above the law and ”Presidents cannot obstruct justice" - what about Nixon?
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Re: Flynn’s Plea

Postby Sandy » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:25 pm

The bottom line looks like it will be obstruction of justice, though there also seems to be some criminal activity involved in the collusion itself, along with violations of federal law. I think the only real mystery now is who else from his campaign was involved. The implications could be far reaching for those involved.
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