Progress

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Progress

Postby KeithE » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:55 pm

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Re: Progress

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:19 am

Progress in the wrong direction.

A step away from the way God formed a person in the womb...

A step towards man continuing to make themselves a god.

Progress for sure - but in the wrong direction.

Blow trumpet blow...
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Re: Progress

Postby William Thornton » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:40 am

Obama and Clinton nearly destroyed the Democratic party. It seems reasonable to predict a pendulum swing in state houses and congress. Maybe the GOP can get something done this year or next. After that, who knows.
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Re: Progress

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:16 am

Jon Estes wrote:Progress in the wrong direction.

A step away from the way God formed a person in the womb...

A step towards man continuing to make themselves a god.

Progress for sure - but in the wrong direction.

Blow trumpet blow...


Jon, I have to wonder what you are saying here. Are you favoring criminalizing abortion? That's how it sounds.

Second, the election of a doctor who has served in the military, as a pediatric neurologist, director of children's hospice program, and served 8 years in the military hardly sounds like a turn away from God to make ourselves gods. Why doesn't the GOP address Jesus' words, "The love of money is the root of all evil"?

Third, a turning away from idolizing rebellion and ideas of racial superiority represented by the "lost cause myth" of the South surely does not offend God. Running on preserving every Confederate statue of men defending slavery and racial superiority surely panders to hatred, not love.

Fourth, why do you want to rush the end when your goal is to evangelize? Does that mean you want to send some folks into Hell?
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Re: Progress

Postby Haruo » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:12 am

Dave Roberts wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:Progress in the wrong direction.

A step away from the way God formed a person in the womb...


Jon, I have to wonder what you are saying here. Are you favoring criminalizing abortion? That's how it sounds.

I certainly didn't see that as having to do with criminlizing abortion, which btw I would have assumed Jon was in favor of unless he said otherwise. But if it is about abortion, it would have to be "criminalizing abortion except in the case of transgender fetuses."
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Re: Progress

Postby Haruo » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:17 am

William Thornton wrote:Obama and Clinton nearly destroyed the Democratic party. It seems reasonable to predict a pendulum swing in state houses and congress. Maybe the GOP can get something done this year or next. After that, who knows.

I think it's likely that Republicans in districts/states where defeat by a Democratic challenger is even conceivable will be strongly motivated to distance themselves from "getting something done". I predict congressional gridlock until November next year, followed by enough of a Democratic sweep to make overriding vetoes from the left a realistic option.

What are Chris Christie's plans for the future?
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Re: Progress

Postby KeithE » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:54 am

William Thornton wrote:Obama and Clinton nearly destroyed the Democratic party. It seems reasonable to predict a pendulum swing in state houses and congress. Maybe the GOP can get something done this year or next. After that, who knows.


My sense is that Obama and Hillary have badly hurt the Democratic Party. Along with GWB they have turned the USA into a Wall Street/Corporate- controlled country as far as domestic policy goes and a needlessly interventionist foreign policy (maybe :wink: Afghanistan was warranted, but few if any of the other 177 countries we are in are justified, imo)

But we cannot pin that on Bill Clinton. Apparently sexual behavior does not mean much to the voters - think Danica Roem, Bill Clinton, Donald Trump.
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Re: Progress

Postby KeithE » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:28 pm

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Re: Progress

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:42 pm



Do you believe those who believe transgender lifestyle is a sin are homophobic?
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Re: Progress

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:45 pm

Haruo wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:Progress in the wrong direction.

A step away from the way God formed a person in the womb...


Jon, I have to wonder what you are saying here. Are you favoring criminalizing abortion? That's how it sounds.

I certainly didn't see that as having to do with criminlizing abortion, which btw I would have assumed Jon was in favor of unless he said otherwise. But if it is about abortion, it would have to be "criminalizing abortion except in the case of transgender fetuses."


I’m referring to Jeremiah 1:5.

God did not form His most precious creation to be transgender. It’s that simple.
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Re: Progress

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:01 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:Progress in the wrong direction.

A step away from the way God formed a person in the womb...

A step towards man continuing to make themselves a god.

Progress for sure - but in the wrong direction.

Blow trumpet blow...


Jon, I have to wonder what you are saying here. Are you favoring criminalizing abortion? That's how it sounds.

God did not create transgender people.

Second, the election of a doctor who has served in the military, as a pediatric neurologist, director of children's hospice program, and served 8 years in the military hardly sounds like a turn away from God to make ourselves gods. Why doesn't the GOP address Jesus' words, "The love of money is the root of all evil"?

Nice try... not really. Switch the subject from transgender to the love of money. Simply stupid move.

Third, a turning away from idolizing rebellion and ideas of racial superiority represented by the "lost cause myth" of the South surely does not offend God. Running on preserving every Confederate statue of men defending slavery and racial superiority surely panders to hatred, not love.

I think I know why you want to switch subjects. If you don’t like the subject of this thread, tell the initiator. I have no time to waste chasing your rabbits.

Fourth, why do you want to rush the end when your goal is to evangelize? Does that mean you want to send some folks into Hell?

You do know I don’t send anyone to hell, right?
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Re: Progress

Postby Haruo » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:24 pm

"God did not create transgender people."

Hmm. What other actor has the ability to create people? I mean, God didn't create Swedes, either, at least as far as I can tell from the Bible, but hey, they seem to exist. What gives?
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Re: Progress

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:16 pm

Haruo wrote:"God did not create transgender people."

Hmm. What other actor has the ability to create people? I mean, God didn't create Swedes, either, at least as far as I can tell from the Bible, but hey, they seem to exist. What gives?


So do abusers of children... does that mean we embrace them and their choices as acceptable?
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Re: Progress

Postby Haruo » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:00 am

Your comment reveals a fundamental misunderstanding concerning the nature of transgenderness. Child abuse is not acceptable, but child abusers are human, children of Adam. Transgender folks are not innately child abusers, and when they do abuse children it is just as wrong as when straight or gay folks do so.
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Re: Progress

Postby Haruo » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:02 am

When I post here from my new phone, it all gets double spaced for no apparent reason.
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Re: Progress

Postby Jon Estes » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:48 am

Haruo wrote:Your comment reveals a fundamental misunderstanding concerning the nature of transgenderness. Child abuse is not acceptable, but child abusers are human, children of Adam. Transgender folks are not innately child abusers, and when they do abuse children it is just as wrong as when straight or gay folks do so.


I am not comparing behavior to behavior but rather - sin is sin.

The place where the differences begin is in your statement... Child abuse is not acceptable. I agree and I believe everyone on this forum would also. Yet, this is where you stop.

The transgender choice is not acceptable. It may be legal in our world. It may be embraced by some/many in this world... That is not what determines if something is acceptable or not. If right and wrong are going to be determined by popular vote, then the coming generations will probably kick your line to where you get offended to the curb. The line keeps changing. I choose to let the one who never changes draw the line.
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Re: Progress

Postby KeithE » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:47 am

Just a question Jon - Where in the Bible is being transgendered declared wrong?
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Re: Progress

Postby KeithE » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:59 am

Jon Estes wrote:


Do you believe those who believe transgender lifestyle is a sin are homophobic?

Note that the 13 term loser proudly declared himself Va ‘s “chief homophobe”.

I don’t think you* are so much afraid of transgenders as you are culturally influenced to call them sinners unless you can find clear biblical basis for your claim (since the Bible is supposedly your guide to all truth).

* As a representative of conservative Christians "who believe transgender lifestyle is a sin”.
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Re: Progress

Postby Jon Estes » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:58 am

KeithE wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:


Do you believe those who believe transgender lifestyle is a sin are homophobic?

Note that the 13 term loser proudly declared himself Va ‘s “chief homophobe”.

The article says he proudly says such. The Washington Post reports it. I cannot find any first source of the comment. It is clear he is pro-traditional marriage and against transgender bathrooms but I honestly can't find the quote.

I don’t think you* are so much afraid of transgenders as you are culturally influenced to call them sinners unless you can find clear biblical basis for your claim (since the Bible is supposedly your guide to all truth).

* As a representative of conservative Christians "who believe transgender lifestyle is a sin”.


[color=#400080]Scripture is filled with who is creator and who is not. Scripture clearly teaches God created man and woman not sheman or hewoman.

That you cannot see this is telling.
[/color]
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Re: Progress

Postby Jon Estes » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:00 am

KeithE wrote:Just a question Jon - Where in the Bible is being transgendered declared wrong?


If you can show me where God created such a person (man who is supposed to be a woman / woman who is supposed to be a man), then we might be able to have a discussion that is of value.
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Re: Progress

Postby KeithE » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:58 am

Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:Just a question Jon - Where in the Bible is being transgendered declared wrong?


If you can show me where God created such a person (man who is supposed to be a woman / woman who is supposed to be a man), then we might be able to have a discussion that is of value.

Yeah I figured you couldn’t come up with any biblical condemnation of transgenders. Conservatives have long condemned Pharisees not for their judgmental ways as Jesus did, but that they added extra biblical sins. You have done so in this case based on a cultural norm.

I’ll stick with Jesus and stand up for the marginalized. Certainly not going to disqualify a candidate for sexual sin as long as she is not compromisable (iow, is upfront about her sexual preference).

Jon - How you you deal with Trump and the Hollywood Access tape?
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Re: Progress

Postby Haruo » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:30 am

Transgenderism is not a "lifestyle". It is a sense of one's true nature. It is not a "choice" in the facile sense in which those who consider it "sin" tend to employ the term. And discrimination against the transgendered has in my view more in common with child abuse than it has with Jesus.
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Re: Progress

Postby Jon Estes » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:34 am

Haruo wrote:Transgenderism is not a "lifestyle". It is a sense of one's true nature. It is not a "choice" in the facile sense in which those who consider it "sin" tend to employ the term. And discrimination against the transgendered has in my view more in common with child abuse than it has with Jesus.


I am supposed to just believe this because you are stating it?

It is a choice to stop being what God created you to be (within the role of gender) and long to be something else.

One's true nature is sinful. SO I would agree with you on that point.

Your view is noted and I disagree with it.
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Re: Progress

Postby Haruo » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:00 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
Haruo wrote:Transgenderism is not a "lifestyle". It is a sense of one's true nature. It is not a "choice" in the facile sense in which those who consider it "sin" tend to employ the term. And discrimination against the transgendered has in my view more in common with child abuse than it has with Jesus.


I am supposed to just believe this because you are stating it?

It is a choice to stop being what God created you to be (within the role of gender) and long to be something else.

One's true nature is sinful. SO I would agree with you on that point.

Your view is noted and I disagree with it.

How many transgender Christians have you ever discussed these things with? How many of them have you ever loved (in a meaningful way, not just because Jesus says we must)? My guess is not many if any, but that's just my guess because I can't see how you could take your position here if you had.
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Re: Progress

Postby Haruo » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:03 pm

Sin may be sin, driving 7 mph above the posted speed limit is not murder.

What was that post about maybe three posts up where you seemed to be arguing with yourself about the defining of sins not listed by name in the Bible?
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