The Texas Massacre

The place to discuss politics and policy issues that are not directly related to matters of faith.

Moderator: KeithE

The Texas Massacre

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:04 am

I sit grieving over people in Texas whom I had never met who joined in a small First Baptist Church in a town few had ever heard mentioned before but will now have etched alongside others we remember for all the wrong reasons. If mental health is the issue, as the President says, when are we going to declare a national emergency to treat those who may be prone to such violent outbursts. If sensible gun laws are the reason, when will we at least raise the questions about how many rounds a magazine should hold and whether a "bump stock" should be illegal. Of course, there are gun laws, but few of them ever get enforcement priority with our overstretched law enforcement. If the problem spills over from the political anger in our land, when will we repent of our despising of one another for beliefs with which we disagree? My heart bleeds for people today whose only crime was coming to church, for families who found their lives shattered, for wounded people who may never recover physically or emotionally, and for our country becoming numbed to the violence that is so prevalent in our society. Lord, have mercy!
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6965
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby KeithE » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:02 am

Dave Roberts wrote:I sit grieving over people in Texas whom I had never met who joined in a small First Baptist Church in a town few had ever heard mentioned before but will now have etched alongside others we remember for all the wrong reasons. If mental health is the issue, as the President says, when are we going to declare a national emergency to treat those who may be prone to such violent outbursts. If sensible gun laws are the reason, when will we at least raise the questions about how many rounds a magazine should hold and whether a "bump stock" should be illegal. Of course, there are gun laws, but few of them ever get enforcement priority with our overstretched law enforcement. If the problem spills over from the political anger in our land, when will we repent of our despising of one another for beliefs with which we disagree? My heart bleeds for people today whose only crime was coming to church, for families who found their lives shattered, for wounded people who may never recover physically or emotionally, and for our country becoming numbed to the violence that is so prevalent in our society. Lord, have mercy!


So Trump says it is a mental illness issue not a gun issue
Trump: Texas shooting is mental health, not gun problem
As vigils for the dead took place, US President Donald Trump, who is visiting Japan, offered condolences and told reporters on Monday: "We have a lot of mental health problems in our country, but this isn't a gun situation."

He described the Texas gunman as "deranged", saying the shooting represented a "mental health problem at the highest level".


Well then Why Did He Gut This Obama Gun-Check Rule?
Answer is of course Trump’s penchant for ending all Obama’s actions.
Gun control advocates slammed President Donald Trump on Monday as a hypocrite for having signed a bill earlier this year that rolled back a regulation making it harder for people with mental illnesses to buy firearms even as he blamed the mass shooting in Texas over the weekend on "a mental health problem."

"Trump is wrong — study after study show that stronger gun laws can save lives — and a hypocrite of the worst kind," Peter Ambler, the executive director of Giffords, the gun control group started by former Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, told NBC News. "One of his first actions as president trashed a new regulation that would have prevented potentially irresponsible and mentally incompetent people from being able to buy guns."

Ambler added, "Blaming mental health is a tactic straight out of the gun lobby's playbook that's meant to paralyze Congress. Donald Trump's goal is to make people think our leaders don't have the power to prevent gun violence."


OK people even Presidents can make mistakes. We will see if he re-instates Obama’s Gun-Check Rule. Is he man enough to do so?

As for me, it is not an either-or fix. Their needs to be more mental health funding (federal, state and local) and we need better gun controls (assault rifle/bump stocks/any multi-round gun/rifle and universal gun purchase checks (at gun shows, gun store, private transfers via rf tags on all guns/rifles).

I’d also add expanded efforts to have abusive family incidents be reported to police and nationally registered. This is already in-place now though imperfectly (e.g. USAF failed in this case).

We could even rf tag those abusive people and their guns. Someone roving around with an assault rifle would be intercepted. What is the RFID tag?
RFID tagging is an ID system that uses small radio frequency identification devices for identification and tracking purposes. An RFID tagging system includes the tag itself, a read/write device, and a host system application for data collection, processing, and transmission.


This may be further than many of you would go, but I’d prohibit violent gun-toting video games. I know my daughter does not allow that with her kids. Why not have more games that find poverty/hunger and the video game player find people and deliver food and aid to those people? (maybe there is some such game).

If you object to the “politicization” so soon after an incident, I ask 2 things:
1) When??
2) Trump politicizes any violence perpetrated by Muslims certainly by the next morning tweet storm. Trump rejects politicizing attacks -- unless it's Islamist terrorism.
When 58 people were killed last month by a white gunman in Las Vegas with no apparent ties to Islamist terrorism, the White House rejected a policy debate on gun control as inappropriate in the days following the tragedy.

But when eight people were mowed down in a terrorist attack by a man shouting "Allahu akbar," President Donald Trump pounced almost immediately, seizing on the tragedy to push his proposals for tightening immigration controls.


If you doubt mass shootings are a serious USA national issue:
Mass shootings in America are a serious problem -- and these 9 charts show just why
and here is just one of those charts (to decorate this post), but look at them all.

Image
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8409
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby William Thornton » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:27 am

Part helpful. Part meaningless.

I'm not a purist on this but have honest questions about keeping guns away from those with mental issues. Who decides? What is the threshold? Does the gummit confiscate guns (and other weapons) already held or just kick back any new gun purchase? It's a tough issue.

Oh, was this on any mental illness list? Did the guy use a bump stock? How large were his magazines. News reports were that he fired 450 or so rounds.

We can all politicize this but my guess at this point is that the neighbor hero who shot the guy will win the day politically. What kind of gun did the plumber have?
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:12 am

William Thornton wrote:Part helpful. Part meaningless.

I'm not a purist on this but have honest questions about keeping guns away from those with mental issues. Who decides? What is the threshold? Does the gummit confiscate guns (and other weapons) already held or just kick back any new gun purchase? It's a tough issue.

In the realm of domestic abuse, most states prohibit the holding of firearms by those accused. In fact, in Virginia, those being arrested are instructed to turn in all firearms to be held by law enforcement until their court hearing. There is a major problem, however. No search warrants are issued and the response depends on the accused who often perjures himself/herself before the magistrate swearing they do not currently hold or control any firearms.

Oh, was this on any mental illness list? Did the guy use a bump stock? How large were his magazines. News reports were that he fired 450 or so rounds.

The issues of mental illness ring to me like a dodge because no official who says this is a mental illness issue offers to sponsor legislation to fund more treatment or even tracking of those who are "sick, sick individual(s)" to quote the POTUS.

We can all politicize this but my guess at this point is that the neighbor hero who shot the guy will win the day politically. What kind of gun did the plumber have?


It was either a shotgun or rifle, not an AR-15.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6965
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby KeithE » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:32 am

Dave Roberts wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Part helpful. Part meaningless.

I'm not a purist on this but have honest questions about keeping guns away from those with mental issues. Who decides? What is the threshold? Does the gummit confiscate guns (and other weapons) already held or just kick back any new gun purchase? It's a tough issue.

In the realm of domestic abuse, most states prohibit the holding of firearms by those accused. In fact, in Virginia, those being arrested are instructed to turn in all firearms to be held by law enforcement until their court hearing. There is a major problem, however. No search warrants are issued and the response depends on the accused who often perjures himself/herself before the magistrate swearing they do not currently hold or control any firearms.

Oh, was this on any mental illness list? Did the guy use a bump stock? How large were his magazines. News reports were that he fired 450 or so rounds.

The issues of mental illness ring to me like a dodge because no official who says this is a mental illness issue offers to sponsor legislation to fund more treatment or even tracking of those who are "sick, sick individual(s)" to quote the POTUS.

We can all politicize this but my guess at this point is that the neighbor hero who shot the guy will win the day politically. What kind of gun did the plumber have?


It was either a shotgun or rifle, not an AR-15.


Good points Dave in purple.

It is said that it was a Ruger AR-556 - AR-15 style gun - and he had multiple magazines and as William has said there were about 450 rounds fired. Shooter at Texas Church Used AR-15-style Rifle

No one should be able to own that many rounds or any multi-round firearm, imo. Yet Owned by 5 million Americans, AR-15 under renewed fire after Orlando massacre.

When will we ever learn? or Make excuses?
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8409
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby KeithE » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:41 am

William Thornton wrote:Part helpful. Part meaningless.

I'm not a purist on this but have honest questions about keeping guns away from those with mental issues. Who decides? What is the threshold? Does the gummit confiscate guns (and other weapons) already held or just kick back any new gun purchase? It's a tough issue.

Oh, was this on any mental illness list? Did the guy use a bump stock? How large were his magazines. News reports were that he fired 450 or so rounds.

We can all politicize this but my guess at this point is that the neighbor hero who shot the guy will win the day politically. What kind of gun did the plumber have?


As far as a “threshold” goes, decision theory regularly biases toward not making decision errors that have the most harmful consequences.
Consequence of being too permissive on guns - people die.
Consequence of limiting multi-round gun ownership - some gun owners have to live with simple single-round guns.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8409
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby William Thornton » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:18 pm

This is nice for some good, cheap virtue signaling but not worth much as a solution. No one is talking about gun confiscation or single round only guns or limits on stocks of ammo.

But let us know if you know of anything that might help that actually has a chance of political success.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

NPR and New Yorker

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:38 pm

Have advice and information for William if he really wants to know. And has William googled Selling the Politics of Fear, Osnos, New Yorker.

I will be blogging later today calling on historically Baptist universities and the Duke Baptist house of Studies, Baylor, Furman, Wake Forest, Samford, Carson Newman to focus on this NRA event at a Baptist church in Texas that could have easily been the Bethany Baptist Church in Gaffney SC where my father was pastor for 16 years.

I am convinced Dietrich Bonhoeffer were he with us today would name the Leadership of the NRA and their apologist Steve Bannon the Face of Evil in AMerica today. To that end I am hoping this winter Furman's Karen Guth who wrote Claims on Bonhoeffer for Christian Century; and Charles Marsh, the UVA proff, Baptist minister's son of Laurel Mississippi and Dothan Alabama, the definitive biographer of Bonhoeffer will hit three of these schools and speak truth to the leadership of the NRA and the politics of stupidity, Bonhoeffer's phrase, not mine, but as Katy Perry said: "I like it"!
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 9003
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby KeithE » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:06 pm

William Thornton wrote:This is nice for some good, cheap virtue signaling but not worth much as a solution. No one is talking about gun confiscation or single round only guns or limits on stocks of ammo.

But let us know if you know of anything that might help that actually has a chance of political success.


What would help with political success is less people like you with a defeatist attitude about making the USA a “more perfect union”. And a little imagination/possibility thinking in treating nation issues is not a bad thing.

“cheap virtue signaling” is your charge against me. At least I provide DATA not just easily given opinion. Look at all 9 charts given here.

I’ll add one here for for decoration. 307 mass shootings (defined as 4 or more people killed during incident) in America in 2017 so far. Worst states are Illinois, Louisiana and Mississippi.
Image
The two states with the laxest gun laws are Louisiana and Mississippi. scroll to bottom. Illinois has the ninth strictest gun laws. Illinois’s largest problems are in the westside and southside of Chicago.
Image
Source: 2017 Chicago Stats. A lot of related and unrelated DATA given in these stats!
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8409
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby John Sneed » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:19 pm

Point: Nobody from the NRA has shot anyone. Therefore, let's blame the NRA for a crazy person who shot up a church.

Point: Criminals don't care about laws. Neither do crazy people. Passing gun laws will have no effect on criminals or the use of firearms in crimes.

So, the liberal solution is ... let's do as much damage as humanly possible to law abiding gun owners. And we can all sleep better at night knowing that law abiding citizens will obey the law.

And, as a side benefit, we can put a smack down on the NRA, who has never shot anyone anyway.

John
John Sneed
 
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:25 am
Location: Springfield, Missouri

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby KeithE » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:38 pm

William Thornton wrote:We can all politicize this but my guess at this point is that the neighbor hero who shot the guy will win the day politically. What kind of gun did the plumber have?

The plumber did good and told the story that he was scared but nonetheless confronted and followed assailant. He is a hero with a gun.

But do you realize that more often an unarmed citizen safety and successfully restrains active shooters than an armed citizen.

Image
Source: 6th chart here.

Only 3.1% of armed citizens have exchanged gunfire with active shooters. Thus 96.9% of active shooter situations end without armed citizenry. So goes the argument that all we have to do is put guns in everyone's hands to keep America safe.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8409
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby KeithE » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:32 pm

Purple/reddish words are my responses to John’s black statements.

John Sneed wrote:Point: Nobody from the NRA has shot anyone. Therefore, let's blame the NRA for a crazy person who shot up a church.

No one here on BL has said anything about the NRA, yet.

Point: Criminals don't care about laws. Neither do crazy people. Passing gun laws will have no effect on criminals or the use of firearms in crimes.

But gun control by authorities can have an effect. It has worked in Australia and the UK.

And many/most “crazy people” do care about obeying the law.


So, the liberal solution is ... let's do as much damage as humanly possible to law abiding gun owners.

What a ridiculous statement, John.

Banning assault weapons and better registration are the additional gun control laws most often being suggested by us “liberals”. Keeping assault rifles away from “law abiding gun owners” is not “damaging” them (let alone damaging them "as (much as) humanly possible"); and neither is having all register all their firearms.

And I'll also note innocents being killed are more than being “damaged"; and accidental deaths (130,000/year) are also more than being “damaged”, let alone those who accidentally wound (“damage”) themselves.


And we can all sleep better at night knowing that law abiding citizens will obey the law.

I’ll sleep better w/o as many guns in this country period. All law offenders were at one time “law abiding citizens".

And, as a side benefit, we can put a smack down on the NRA,

Amen brother!. Now I have said something about the NRA .

who has never shot anyone anyway.

Of course the NRA organization has not shot anyone (that I know of). But I’ll betcha NRA members have.
I’ve looked but have not found if NRA members are more or less likely to commit murders or assault people with a deadly weapon.


John
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8409
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Enlisting Baylor and Wake Forest

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:29 pm

I just posted this in a message to Wake Forest President Nathan Hatch and have made similar comments at Baylor and Furman. Read my blog posted about two hours ago


Nathan Hatch successor at Notre Dame wrote America's God that celebrated Abraham Lincoln. My fellow Furman grad Vernon Burton said in his acceptance speech for the SC Humanities Award October 19, not only was Abe Lincoln the greatest President, he was the greatest American Theologian of the 19th Century. Nathan's Dad was the spiritual mentor of the wife of Nixon's Southern Strategist, Harry Dent. The Baptist world became even more intriguing and ground zero for yet another American political drama Sunday the political power of the NRA. I mentioned Wake Forest Div School and other historically Baptist centers in my blog of a few minutes ago on Bonhoeffer and the NRA. I hope Wake Forest institutionally takes up the Fight to shed light to the darkness of Steve Bannon, Wayne LaPierre, NRA leadership and NC pols struck mute by their bullying power while Baptist preacher's daughters are mowed down. www.foxofbama.blogspot.com.


Mark Noll the Notre Dame fellow in question
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 9003
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

The Point that matters for John Sneed

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:53 pm

Obviously he is willfully ignorant of the New Yorker Osnos piece, all the reports on NPR and what Bonhoeffer would do claiming the politics of stupidity for people like Sneed who...... Hey John, go to religiondispatches.org and elevate your mind for the Kingdom's sake.

I'm with Bonhoeffer on this one. Ride Wayne Lapierre to heaven if that's your choice and your so called "2nd amendment" rights as they have redefined them since the mid 90s and see how past St Peter you get before he hands down the indictment of your miserable spiritual discernment!!!!!
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 9003
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Read my blog, Invoking Bonhoeffer in call to arms

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:57 pm

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ns/545111/

Read the above piece on Congress fear of NRA

Read Religion dispatches and the woman who will take her "**** chances"
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 9003
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby William Thornton » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:44 pm

I'd suggest, stephen, that when you arrive at the pearly gates, you skip the roll call of name drops. No one will be impressed. Go straight to Jesus.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Read my blog, Invoking Bonhoeffer in call to arms

Postby KeithE » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:47 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/why-congress-has-done-nothing-on-guns/545111/

Read the above piece on Congress fear of NRA.

Read Religion dispatches and the woman who will take her "**** chances"

Good insight in the Atlantic article above.

Key truths in the article:
Polls have consistently shown broad public backing for additional regulations on guns, including more than 90 percent support for universal background checks.

Ultimately, that dynamic—the disparity between the number of Americans who support more regulations and the number who lobby Congress and base their votes on limiting regulations—is what advocates of gun control are trying to flip. “We know that we have the vast majority of Americans on our side on this issue,” Brown said. “What has to happen, though, is they need to become as vocal about this issue and as active on this issue as the small minority is on the other side.”

NRA funding of candidates and the passion of the NRA-ites is winning vs 90% of America that want additional gun controls. IOW, campaign money speaks louder than the will of the people.


But, Stephan, what is the Religion Dispatches article?

And what does the **** mean (if you can say it online). :wink:
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8409
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Read my blog, Invoking Bonhoeffer in call to arms

Postby Rvaughn » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:44 pm

KeithE wrote:NRA funding of candidates and the passion of the NRA-ites is winning vs 90% of America that want additional gun controls. IOW, campaign money speaks louder than the will of the people.
In an op-ed piece, Jonah Goldberg argues that it is more about votes than money, "Oh, it’s certainly the case that the NRA and related groups have given a good amount of money to Republican politicians (and quite a few Democrats) over the years. But in the grubby bazaar of politician-buying, the NRA is a bit player...In terms of lobbying and political contributions, the NRA and the gun industry generally spend next to nothing compared with the big players. According to OpenSecrets, the NRA spent $1.1 million on contributions in 2016 and $3 million on lobbying. The food and beverage industry has spent $14 million on lobbying in 2017 alone. Alphabet, Google’s parent company, spent $9 million on contributions in 2016."
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/452390/nra-guns-support-among-voters-high-its-not-about-money
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 623
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby Rvaughn » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:49 pm

KeithE wrote:But do you realize that more often an unarmed citizen safety and successfully restrains active shooters than an armed citizen.

Image
Source: 6th chart here.

Only 3.1% of armed citizens have exchanged gunfire with active shooters. Thus 96.9% of active shooter situations end without armed citizenry. So goes the argument that all we have to do is put guns in everyone's hands to keep America safe.
But isn't it likely that these numbers are skewed by the facts that much more of the citizenry is unarmed than armed (therefore being the only way they can restrain active shooters), and that shooters tend to prefer venues where they are less likely to encounter armed citizens?

I'm not a gun person, but if I were to try to "restrain" an active shooter, I would prefer to do so armed rather than unarmed. (But I don't carry a gun, my so-called preference is immaterial.)
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 623
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby KeithE » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:13 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
KeithE wrote:But do you realize that more often an unarmed citizen safety and successfully restrains active shooters than an armed citizen.

Image
Source: 6th chart here.

Only 3.1% of armed citizens have exchanged gunfire with active shooters. Thus 96.9% of active shooter situations end without armed citizenry. So goes the argument that all we have to do is put guns in everyone's hands to keep America safe.
But isn't it likely that these numbers are skewed by the facts that much more of the citizenry is unarmed than armed (therefore being the only way they can restrain active shooters), and that shooters tend to prefer venues where they are less likely to encounter armed citizens?

I'm not a gun person, but if I were to try to "restrain" an active shooter, I would prefer to do so armed rather than unarmed. (But I don't carry a gun, my so-called preference is immaterial.)

Well 40% of households have guns. So the difference should not be that much.

Thinking about it some more, I’d say the the reason so many active shooting incidents are not ended by armed citizen gunfire is that most of time the shooter commits suicide probably when cornered by law enforcement or by law enforcement ending the incident in a non-lethal way.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8409
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby Sandy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:25 pm

So here we are, another church shooting, 26 dead, most of them children, virtually half the congregation. It comes on the heels of another mass shooting not much more than a month ago, and yet another, in a church in Tennessee, just a little while before that. Many people in our country are still OK with doing nothing, and coming up with lame excuses to explain why we can't, even though none of what they say has anything to do with the constitutional right to bear arms. That's because there's no real belief in the sanctity of human life on their part, it wasn't their church, it wasn't their country music concert, it wasn't their city...

Maybe some people are starting to get the message. The NRA-funded gubernatorial candidate in the Virginia governor's race lost, by almost 10% of the vote. Was that a reaction to the shooting, coming so close to election day? Churches have already tightened up their ideology and theology to turn people away, now maybe people will be uneasy enough to simply avoid sitting in a pew or a chair in a church on Sunday because of what might happen to them. Or maybe they will be intimidated by the amateur gun toters out in the parking lot.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby Rvaughn » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:37 pm

KeithE wrote:Well 40% of households have guns. So the difference should not be that much.
One question for that percentage, in regards to the point, would be how many of the 40% take their guns with them when they leave the house?
KeithE wrote:Thinking about it some more, I’d say the the reason so many active shooting incidents are not ended by armed citizen gunfire is that most of time the shooter commits suicide probably when cornered by law enforcement or by law enforcement ending the incident in a non-lethal way.
I don't know the percentages of that, but I know that I have heard many times of the shooter committing suicide.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 623
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby Rvaughn » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:46 pm

Interesting piece at CNN.com
The truth about church shootings
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 623
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby KeithE » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:48 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
KeithE wrote:Well 40% of households have guns. So the difference should not be that much.
One question for that percentage, in regards to the point, would be how many of the 40% take their guns with them when they leave the house?
KeithE wrote:Thinking about it some more, I’d say the the reason so many active shooting incidents are not ended by armed citizen gunfire is that most of time the shooter commits suicide probably when cornered by law enforcement or by law enforcement ending the incident in a non-lethal way.
I don't know the percentages of that, but I know that I have heard many times of the shooter committing suicide.


Well according to the FBI study above, it is 40% (sample size is only 160, America’s population is 324 million, so the margin of error is 7.75%).
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8409
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: The Texas Massacre

Postby KeithE » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:50 pm

Rvaughn wrote:Interesting piece at CNN.com
The truth about church shootings


That is very interesting - lotsa of stats; but I’m going to bed.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8409
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Next

Return to Politics and Public Policy Issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron