The Republican Jesus

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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:28 pm

KeithE wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:You do understand TIC... don't you?


Yes. But it would make me happy :) to see the cons on this board advocate for the poor instead of calling them lazy (as a default position).

Interesting. I am not sure those here on the left write anything for the purpose of making those on the right happy... and vice versa. Maybe you can demonstrate such to us. Let's say for the next 2 weeks you write only things that would make me happy. Keep up with the conversation. Reply to other posts but do it in a way to make me happy. You can do that since you advocate for such a thing.

It is disingenuous at best for you to say or think I believe all poor people are lazy. It is also incorrect to think all people are here to advocate for that which God has led you to advocate for. You know nothing about me and my work among those in poverty. You know nothing about my work with the orphans in Nigeria. You know nothing about my investment into the lives of families in the Eastern Ohio region who live without so much since the previous President shut down their mines. One can be involved in the above and still hate the reality that many are lazy.

Your holier than thou comments fall short because you speak against what you know nothing about. I don't need a chart to prove that.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby KeithE » Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:19 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:You do understand TIC... don't you?


Yes. But it would make me happy :) to see the cons on this board advocate for the poor instead of calling them lazy (as a default position).

Interesting. I am not sure those here on the left write anything for the purpose of making those on the right happy... and vice versa. Maybe you can demonstrate such to us. Let's say for the next 2 weeks you write only things that would make me happy. Keep up with the conversation. Reply to other posts but do it in a way to make me happy. You can do that since you advocate for such a thing.

It is disingenuous at best for you to say or think I believe all poor people are lazy. It is also incorrect to think all people are here to advocate for that which God has led you to advocate for. You know nothing about me and my work among those in poverty. You know nothing about my work with the orphans in Nigeria. You know nothing about my investment into the lives of families in the Eastern Ohio region who live without so much since the previous President shut down their mines. One can be involved in the above and still hate the reality that many are lazy.

Your holier than thou comments fall short because you speak against what you know nothing about. I don't need a chart to prove that.


Glad to see you have several charitable efforts. I won’t make light of them.

But don’t make light of government efforts to help the poor, the sick, the hungry, the displaced like you did wrt the Dave’s post. They have a far greater reach than you or I.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:27 pm

Daves post (poster) mocked the right, of which I am a part.

I guess it makes you happy to state things the way the poster stated them.

Because I support being in the country legally and think all illegals need to be here in a manner which is legal, doesn't make me an enemy... it does, I guess, make you unhappy. Oh well.

When a poor lost man is turned away from heaven because He is not saved, our heart ought to be broken over his lostness first, not his poverty. Helping correct one of these makes an eternal difference, the other doesn't.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Sandy » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:48 pm

Jon Estes wrote:Because I support being in the country legally and think all illegals need to be here in a manner which is legal, doesn't make me an enemy... it does, I guess, make you unhappy. Oh well.


Most of those who are here illegally come because it is the only way they have to provide for their family. Economic opportunity doesn't exist where they live, and it does exist here. They're coming here to work.

There's too much characterization and generalization of people who are in dire economic circumstances when it comes to the idea of "the lazy man." Sure, there are those who are looking for a handout, or who scam the system, but most people just want an opportunity to work. Most of them aren't educated and there is enough greed out there to take advantage of them on the job in wages, benefits and their desperation.

Most of the work I've done while serving as a vocational minister was in the inner city, initially St. Louis, and later on, Houston. I met a lot of people who were poor, living in housing projects and ghetto neighborhoods, and a whole lot of people in Texas who were here illegally. While there are always some who are lazy, that's not characteristic of them as a whole. Most of them are willing to work low paying jobs to support their families, some of them two jobs or more than that if they need to. I've met single moms who would work a 40 hour week at Taco Bell and then go to night class to try to get a diploma or degree to better themselves for their kids. It gave the churches I served a chance to take care of their kids and while doing that, to teach the Bible. I don't really think our responsibility is to judge their immigration status or where they live or how they earn their living. There they are, and it is an opportunity to minister to them. It's kind of hard to open your Bible and share the gospel when they haven't eaten all day, maybe because they decided to feed their kids, and not meet their need first.

Being an immigration hawk isn't going to solve the problem.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:30 am

Jon Estes wrote:Daves post (poster) mocked the right, of which I am a part.

I guess it makes you happy to state things the way the poster stated them.

Because I support being in the country legally and think all illegals need to be here in a manner which is legal, doesn't make me an enemy... it does, I guess, make you unhappy. Oh well.

When a poor lost man is turned away from heaven because He is not saved, our heart ought to be broken over his lostness first, not his poverty. Helping correct one of these makes an eternal difference, the other doesn't.


Jon, I do not support our current mess in immigration I did support George W. Bush's effort at comprehensive immigration reform but watched it die in GOP hands in Congress. Much of our problem stems from quotas that are so low that the numbers do not provide needed labor for our country. Indeed, we are facing labor shortages in both highly technical fields and in the building trades. I know this is anecdotal, but I was talking two weeks ago with one of the finest brick masons I know, and he cannot hire skilled masons to lay brick among native Americans. He is hiring some Hispanics because they want to work in the trades, and some he has to look the other way when they submit their I-9's. That's probably irrelevant, but more and more IT techs are coming from India and Eastern Europe because American schools are not preparing students well enough in STEM subjects to be able to do the work.

By the way, I don't hear anyone here saying we don't need to reach out to seek to make disciples. I guess the one area of difference is you seem concerned to make converts. My concern is to make disciples. Part of our lack of outreach now in the Christian community is that we have too many who "wanted their ticket punched for heaven," not those who wanted to follow Jesus.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:39 am

Dave Roberts wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:Daves post (poster) mocked the right, of which I am a part.

I guess it makes you happy to state things the way the poster stated them.

Because I support being in the country legally and think all illegals need to be here in a manner which is legal, doesn't make me an enemy... it does, I guess, make you unhappy. Oh well.

When a poor lost man is turned away from heaven because He is not saved, our heart ought to be broken over his lostness first, not his poverty. Helping correct one of these makes an eternal difference, the other doesn't.


Jon, I do not support our current mess in immigration I did support George W. Bush's effort at comprehensive immigration reform but watched it die in GOP hands in Congress. Much of our problem stems from quotas that are so low that the numbers do not provide needed labor for our country. Indeed, we are facing labor shortages in both highly technical fields and in the building trades. I know this is anecdotal, but I was talking two weeks ago with one of the finest brick masons I know, and he cannot hire skilled masons to lay brick among native Americans. He is hiring some Hispanics because they want to work in the trades, and some he has to look the other way when they submit their I-9's. That's probably irrelevant, but more and more IT techs are coming from India and Eastern Europe because American schools are not preparing students well enough in STEM subjects to be able to do the work.

By the way, I don't hear anyone here saying we don't need to reach out to seek to make disciples. I guess the one area of difference is you seem concerned to make converts. My concern is to make disciples. Part of our lack of outreach now in the Christian community is that we have too many who "wanted their ticket punched for heaven," not those who wanted to follow Jesus.


For me, making disciples begins with seeing conversions. You cannot make a disciple out of someone who is not converted. If you think I am not interested in making disciples, you are wrong. Strictly by ignorance because you do not know me or my ministry. That's understandable.

I may speak of converts but I do not recall anyone speaking of making disciples so I'm not sure what point you really want to make at this point by your comment. I am glad though you do notice I speak of seeing the lost saved... that specific thing that Christ Himself said He came for.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:07 am

Jon, is it not possible to believe in both the Great Commission and the Great Commandments? If I love my neighbor as I love myself, I neither want him lost nor hungry, ill-clothed or homeless.

I do ask myself occasionally what it would have meant had Egypt had a border wall in 4 BC???
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby William Thornton » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:40 am

Dave Roberts wrote:Jon, is it not possible to believe in both the Great Commission and the Great Commandments? If I love my neighbor as I love myself, I neither want him lost nor hungry, ill-clothed or homeless.

I do ask myself occasionally what it would have meant had Egypt had a border wall in 4 BC???


:roll:
Oh, come on Dave. Does the Great Commandment demand that I put a gun to my neighbor's head and force him to give me his money so I can collectively carry out the GC?
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Sandy » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:50 am

Dave Roberts wrote:I do ask myself occasionally what it would have meant had Egypt had a border wall in 4 BC???


:lol: God might have had to part the Red Sea again, this time so that a few Jews could go back the other way.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Jim » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:36 am

Dave Roberts wrote:

I do ask myself occasionally what it would have meant had Egypt had a border wall in 4 BC???

Might one of your occasional answers have been that no bloody adherents of Mohammad could have crossed into Egypt or transitioned through Egypt on their way across North Africa to finally wind up in Spain a few hundred years later? Took Spain 700 years to throw them out at about the time Columbus (anathema to the Hillary/Bernie crowd) was degrading North America (known as the shortest way to India then). Without the Egyptian wall, Muslims have been killing Christians routinely since the murderers from Mecca have made Egypt their home-sweet-home in such institutions as the Muslim Brotherhood (aka Be-headers International until this good day).
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:01 pm

Jim wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:

I do ask myself occasionally what it would have meant had Egypt had a border wall in 4 BC???

Might one of your occasional answers have been that no bloody adherents of Mohammad could have crossed into Egypt or transitioned through Egypt on their way across North Africa to finally wind up in Spain a few hundred years later? Took Spain 700 years to throw them out at about the time Columbus (anathema to the Hillary/Bernie crowd) was degrading North America (known as the shortest way to India then). Without the Egyptian wall, Muslims have been killing Christians routinely since the murderers from Mecca have made Egypt their home-sweet-home in such institutions as the Muslim Brotherhood (aka Be-headers International until this good day).


Jim, I was thinking about the crossing of certain refugees from Bethlehem who certainly did not secure a passport from Herod or have a visa from the Roman prefect ruling in Egypt at the time. By today's terms, they would have been undocumented aliens.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Sandy » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:25 pm

Under any "immigration reform" plan, what gets reformed? We have a quota system in place, but it hasn't kept up with patterns of immigration. Quotas from some countries go unfilled, while others are jammed. They are always set with some "engineering" with regard to nationalities and race, and in more recent history, to allow for those with technical skills, and medical skills, to enter because we are getting short in those categories. We also have a long history and heritage as a country which provides a refuge from oppression, and as a country which provides a place for people to start over, and have opportunity they can't get elsewhere. All of those things need to be in balance.

There was a time in the modern history of the country that quotas and numbers were used to restrict Jewish refugees from entering, at the time they were being persecuted and murdered by the Nazis in Europe. All kinds of mazes and obstacle courses were put in place, with the reason for restricting them being that there might be spies or saboteurs among them. Most of them were trapped in Nazi occupied Europe, and couldn't get legal papers, but even among those who could, the United States set up roadblocks for allowing them to come here. Race or religion shouldn't make a difference in whether a person gets to come here, or whether we will allow them freedom from oppression here, that aspect of immigration should be color blind.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Haruo » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:04 pm

The Grange Hall we went to a singing at in Joseph, Oregon, earlier this year had a plaque on the wall commemorating the Grange's significant accomplishments. One of the items celebrated was the Chinese Exclusion Act.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Sandy » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:30 pm

Haruo wrote: One of the items celebrated was the Chinese Exclusion Act.


Signed by President Chester A. Arthur in 1882, it was the first time Congress ever passed a law banning the entry of a particular ethnic group. It had its opposition, especially from the railroad, and other business interests that exploited the cheap labor, such as mining. It was never actually ruled unconstitutional, though it was repealed but not until 1943. Most of the "immigration reform" that's come about historically in the United States has been a restriction aimed at either a non-white ethnic group, or a religion. We welcomed white, Protestant Western and Northern Europeans while restricting the Catholic Spaniards and Italians, and Orthodox Greek. There was no category for Jewish immigrants, because that was considered a religion, not a nationality so the few that got in had to apply and wait in long, long lines because of restrictive policies toward Eastern Europeans. African and Asian countries were always extremely limited.

The Hart-Celler Act of 1965 was a genuine "reform" of immigration in that it swept away pernicious and restrictive laws against racial, ethnic and religious minorities and moved US immigration policy toward something more consistent with its heritage. It had its own economic benefits in that it opened the door to immigration from countries like India, Pakistan, Japan and Korea that boosted the available numbers of people in high tech and medicine, and alleviated shortages of labor in those fields. There had been talk in Congress of doing something like that as far back as the Truman administration, especially after some of the embarrassing bungles of the state department during World War 2, but they didn't get an actual reform plan until the Kennedy-Johnson years.

I'm not in favor of the kind of "reform" that is coming from the right, in that it seems to be returning to the days of restricting people based on their race. I think we can have a policy that is balanced, fair, admits people who will benefit from being here and contribute, and doesn't discriminate racially or religiously. Of course, it needs to be enforced and in order to do that, you can't cut the taxes of the wealthy and have the money do to it, as was proven between 2000 and 2008. Refugees need to be an exception, separate from policy, considered by case and circumstance. And of course if part of enforcing the law is going after business that exploits illegals because of the cheap labor, you won't need to build a border wall. If they can't work here, they won't come.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:20 am

Dave Roberts wrote:Jon, is it not possible to believe in both the Great Commission and the Great Commandments? If I love my neighbor as I love myself, I neither want him lost nor hungry, ill-clothed or homeless.

I do ask myself occasionally what it would have meant had Egypt had a border wall in 4 BC???


Dave,

Are you saying I don't believe in both?

I think it is fair to say that little promotion or push for sharing the gospel is found in these discussions. A few comments against those who do put reaching the lost first are in the form of criticism.

If the Lord returns while you are handing out clothes and building shelters, those without Christ get left behind.

If anyone here doesn't believe in the imminent return of Christ for His bride, save your keystrokes. Nothing but disagreement will occur and I will probably not waste my time explaining what you already reject.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:23 am

Dave Roberts wrote:
Jim wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:

I do ask myself occasionally what it would have meant had Egypt had a border wall in 4 BC???

Might one of your occasional answers have been that no bloody adherents of Mohammad could have crossed into Egypt or transitioned through Egypt on their way across North Africa to finally wind up in Spain a few hundred years later? Took Spain 700 years to throw them out at about the time Columbus (anathema to the Hillary/Bernie crowd) was degrading North America (known as the shortest way to India then). Without the Egyptian wall, Muslims have been killing Christians routinely since the murderers from Mecca have made Egypt their home-sweet-home in such institutions as the Muslim Brotherhood (aka Be-headers International until this good day).


Jim, I was thinking about the crossing of certain refugees from Bethlehem who certainly did not secure a passport from Herod or have a visa from the Roman prefect ruling in Egypt at the time. By today's terms, they would have been undocumented aliens.


It's not in today's terms. God led them to the banks of the sea. Show me where the Jews leaving Egypt compare to those sneaking into the USA. Show us where it is God leading them. Who is their Moses? Jerry Brown? Schemer?...
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:30 am

Jon Estes wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:
I do ask myself occasionally what it would have meant had Egypt had a border wall in 4 BC???

Might one of your occasional answers have been that no bloody adherents of Mohammad could have crossed into Egypt or transitioned through Egypt on their way across North Africa to finally wind up in Spain a few hundred years later? Took Spain 700 years to throw them out at about the time Columbus (anathema to the Hillary/Bernie crowd) was degrading North America (known as the shortest way to India then). Without the Egyptian wall, Muslims have been killing Christians routinely since the murderers from Mecca have made Egypt their home-sweet-home in such institutions as the Muslim Brotherhood (aka Be-headers International until this good day).



It's not in today's terms. God led them to the banks of the sea. Show me where the Jews leaving Egypt compare to those sneaking into the USA. Show us where it is God leading them. Who is their Moses? Jerry Brown? Schemer?...[/quote]

What I am asking is if Joseph, Mary, and Jesus had papers when the fled to Egypt. If Egypt had used a border wall, then what????
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Sandy » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:34 am

Jon Estes wrote:If the Lord returns while you are handing out clothes and building shelters, those without Christ get left behind.


From personal experience, observation, and from what the scriptures say, it's not one or the other, its both. Handing out clothes and building shelters, combined with preaching and teaching, is far more effective in reaching people for Christ than any single one of those things standing alone.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Jim » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:59 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:
Jim wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:

I do ask myself occasionally what it would have meant had Egypt had a border wall in 4 BC???

Might one of your occasional answers have been that no bloody adherents of Mohammad could have crossed into Egypt or transitioned through Egypt on their way across North Africa to finally wind up in Spain a few hundred years later? Took Spain 700 years to throw them out at about the time Columbus (anathema to the Hillary/Bernie crowd) was degrading North America (known as the shortest way to India then). Without the Egyptian wall, Muslims have been killing Christians routinely since the murderers from Mecca have made Egypt their home-sweet-home in such institutions as the Muslim Brotherhood (aka Be-headers International until this good day).


Jim, I was thinking about the crossing of certain refugees from Bethlehem who certainly did not secure a passport from Herod or have a visa from the Roman prefect ruling in Egypt at the time. By today's terms, they would have been undocumented aliens.

Wrong. They were very well-documented since their documentation was the sole purpose of their being in Bethlehem in the first place. Any Roman prefect, if needed, could have ascertained who they were as well as learning that they had no criminal records and had not been killing non-Jews or anyone else all over the world, unlike the Muslims of today and as far back as the 7th century. As for visas and passports, I doubt you have any idea as to whether either even existed at the time, not that it would have mattered since most questions in that day were settled by the sword, with or without trials. The Romans had been in power for a handful of years then and would not have been interested in the fact that Jews had brought about the great disaster of about 1500 years before, when Jewish ancestors had been delivered from Egypt by God, who—I presume you would agree—could have had the trio flown over the non-wall on the back of a huge Roman eagle whether the Egyptians/Romans liked it or not. Of course, I would never have guessed whom you meant by that date.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:34 am

Dave Roberts wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:
I do ask myself occasionally what it would have meant had Egypt had a border wall in 4 BC???

Might one of your occasional answers have been that no bloody adherents of Mohammad could have crossed into Egypt or transitioned through Egypt on their way across North Africa to finally wind up in Spain a few hundred years later? Took Spain 700 years to throw them out at about the time Columbus (anathema to the Hillary/Bernie crowd) was degrading North America (known as the shortest way to India then). Without the Egyptian wall, Muslims have been killing Christians routinely since the murderers from Mecca have made Egypt their home-sweet-home in such institutions as the Muslim Brotherhood (aka Be-headers International until this good day).



It's not in today's terms. God led them to the banks of the sea. Show me where the Jews leaving Egypt compare to those sneaking into the USA. Show us where it is God leading them. Who is their Moses? Jerry Brown? Schemer?...


What I am asking is if Joseph, Mary, and Jesus had papers when the fled to Egypt. If Egypt had used a border wall, then what????[/quote]

We cannot determine what God is doing or what we should do by asking "what if" questions.

The Israelites came upon a wall-like border (Red Sea). One He put in the place it flowed. One that belonged to Him. It was humanly impossible to cross without the proper items - but God is not bound by such things. He caused the water to divide and the Israelites to walk across on dry land.

If God does that to any existing or wall to be built, I will look at the "what if" differently because it will be a "look at" moment, not a "what if" hypothetical.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:40 am

Jim - It seems too many people try to make God fit the current culture and they work real hard to adjust God to see it happen instead of working hard to get the culture to adjust to fit God and His standard.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Sandy » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:21 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:What I am asking is if Joseph, Mary, and Jesus had papers when the fled to Egypt. If Egypt had used a border wall, then what????


That's a pretty good illustration, actually. Of course, no doubt God would have overcome the obstacle of a border wall to accomplish his will in using Egypt as a refuge of protection for Jesus, or he could have accomplished that without having Joseph and Mary flee, but that's only a speculative answer to a hypothetical situation. Dave's statement simply addresses the issue of defining a Christian response or reaction to the issue of illegal immigration, border security and immigration reform. What is "God's standard"? Would following it result in taking a political position that favors putting up a wall to keep people out? Or would it involve turning desperate refugees away based on their religious affiliation?

Since Republicans lay claim to the moral high ground, and co-opt Christian principles for political purposes, pointing out the hypocrisy in their plans for policy when there is an obvious conflict between their values and Christian values is reasonable and legitimate.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby William Thornton » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:46 pm

Let's put an end to this. If Egypt had a border wall then obviously God would have been stymied.
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:15 pm

William Thornton wrote:Let's put an end to this. If Egypt had a border wall then obviously God would have been stymied.


Thanks for completely missing the point. :wink:
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Re: The Republican Jesus

Postby Sandy » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:04 pm

I think we can get creative, and have a little fun with this. I mean, once Joseph, Mary and Jesus made it to Egypt, they were poor Palestinian refugees. Not much of a chance getting into the US with that kind of status with Republicans in charge of immigration.
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