Where is the outrage here...

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Where is the outrage here...

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:14 am

Wanting gun laws that stop the killings...

Where is the outrage here...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/07/illegal-immigrant-breaks-into-nj-home-rapes-6-year-old-girl-police-say.html

Are you willing to fight as hard and stand against such people who do this?

If this illegal would not have been in the country, this 6-year-old girl would still be an innocent 6-year-old girl. Now she is a violated

Think I'll watch the late night gun screamers and see if they care about this subject.

What laws are you willing to see put in place and followed through on?

It seems Trenton is a sanctuary city.

Wish the dad would have had a gun and could have ended the problem that night.
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby KeithE » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:02 am

Jon Estes wrote:Wanting gun laws that stop the killings...

Where is the outrage here...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/07/illegal-immigrant-breaks-into-nj-home-rapes-6-year-old-girl-police-say.html

Are you willing to fight as hard and stand against such people who do this?

If this illegal would not have been in the country, this 6-year-old girl would still be an innocent 6-year-old girl. Now she is a violated

Think I'll watch the late night gun screamers and see if they care about this subject.

What laws are you willing to see put in place and followed through on?

It seems Trenton is a sanctuary city.

Wish the dad would have had a gun and could have ended the problem that night.

I am outraged by any rape especially against a young girl.

But the truth is immigrants commit crimes less frequently than native born Americans do:

Contrary to Trump’s Claims, Immigrants Are Less Likely to Commit Crimes
The Sentencing Project
Fact check: Immigration doesn’t bring crime into U.S., data say

Immigrants commit much less violent crime including murders, sexual assaults than native born Americans:

immigrants commit far fewer crimes than native-born Americans
Image?

Maybe Fox News ought to call for deporting all native born Americans (TIC) ? Or call for removing from office those who brag about sexual assault because they are rich.

I stand by my much more prevalent concern that the US has the highest rate of death by guns among the high-income countries.

Image

That we need to do something about.
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:46 am

All your gibberish is foolish.

100% of illegal alien criminals are guilty of a crime.

Remove these illegal criminals and the crimes they commit in my country will not happen.

To compare the illegal to citizen crimes is blowing smoke and avoiding the issue.

You want to get rid of high powered guns and weapons which are like what the man in Vegas used. I mean your are adamant about the guns now the the shooter killed people but want to give comparisons to citizens when a six year old girl is raped. The only heart you show is your outraged then give multiple links for a some comparisons that do not count.

Let me make it easy. If we get rid of all illegal criminals and keep them out how many of them will be here to rape little girls or other crimes?
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Haruo » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:09 pm

Jon Estes wrote:All your gibberish is foolish.

100% of illegal alien criminals are guilty of a crime.

[...]

Let me make it easy. If we get rid of all illegal criminals and keep them out how many of them will be here to rape little girls or other crimes?

Define "illegal alien criminals". Is it equivalent to "undocumented aliens"?
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:41 pm

Haruo wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:All your gibberish is foolish.

100% of illegal alien criminals are guilty of a crime.

[...]

Let me make it easy. If we get rid of all illegal criminals and keep them out how many of them will be here to rape little girls or other crimes?

Define "illegal alien criminals". Is it equivalent to "undocumented aliens"?


1. Those we know have committed a crime
2. Those who are part of a gang
3. Those who show no concern for the laws of the USA and demonstrate it in their behaviour.

Any reason you had no comment on the tragedy of the six year old girl?
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Jim » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:58 pm

KeithE wrote:
That we need to do something about.

The number-crunchers always love to compare apples with oranges, like the U.S., 74% white but with other ethnic groups from every corner of the world, with Finland, 99% Finn/Swede, allowing for a homogeneity that almost seems impossible. Just the makeup of Chicago, Baltimore or San Francisco is enough to see how disingenuous this is, made up as they are by groups ranging from the gang-bangers to multiple-ethnics to perverts. The interesting thing, though, is the fact that suicide by firearm in the U.S. is nearly twice that of homicide by firearm. The total suicide rate is 12.4 per 100,000 but there's no panicky crowd looking for impossible-to-find motives, as in the Las Vegas matter. So...are gun laws needed to protect citizens from willfully shooting themselves?
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby KeithE » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:34 pm

Jim wrote:
KeithE wrote:
That we need to do something about.

The number-crunchers always love to compare apples with oranges, like the U.S., 74% white but with other ethnic groups from every corner of the world, with Finland, 99% Finn/Swede, allowing for a homogeneity that almost seems impossible. Just the makeup of Chicago, Baltimore or San Francisco is enough to see how disingenuous this is, made up as they are by groups ranging from the gang-bangers to multiple-ethnics to perverts. The interesting thing, though, is the fact that suicide by firearm in the U.S. is nearly twice that of homicide by firearm. The total suicide rate is 12.4 per 100,000 but there's no panicky crowd looking for impossible-to-find motives, as in the Las Vegas matter. So...are gun laws needed to protect citizens from willfully shooting themselves?


You are correct about the suicide by firearms is about twice that of homicide by firearms. Firearm control ought to help some there as well.

Mental health funding has been defunded under the proposed Trump budget.
http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2017/05/23/trump-budget-proposes-big-health-cuts/

Substance Abuse and Mental Health budgeted funding would be cut by almost $400 million.


The RW is ignoring both suicide curtailment as well as deaths by firearms (whether murder or suicide).
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Haruo » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:42 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
Haruo wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:All your gibberish is foolish.

100% of illegal alien criminals are guilty of a crime.

[...]

Let me make it easy. If we get rid of all illegal criminals and keep them out how many of them will be here to rape little girls or other crimes?

Define "illegal alien criminals". Is it equivalent to "undocumented aliens"?


1. Those we know have committed a crime
2. Those who are part of a gang
3. Those who show no concern for the laws of the USA and demonstrate it in their behaviour.

Any reason you had no comment on the tragedy of the six year old girl?

I think the tragedy is obvious. I am not sure what it has to do with the immigration status of her rapist. Both 1, and 3, in your definition are still unclear to me. I only have moments when I can post here today, and want to get the definition straight so next time I have time to write a cogent post I'll know what I'm posting in response to.
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Sandy » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:29 pm

Jon Estes wrote:To compare the illegal to citizen crimes is blowing smoke and avoiding the issue.


Any crime committed against a child is an outrage, especially something like this. Yeah, the guy is a sleeze, and he happens to be here illegally, though that's way down on the list of priorities when it comes to being outraged about this particular crime. A group of more than 20 young children and their teachers were gunned down in their classrooms in Sandy Hook by a guy who was born and raised here.

The man committed a crime, was arrested, will be arraigned, tried and sentenced. That's the way it works. His status as an illegal has no bearing on it one way or another. I don't have a problem with deportation being part of the sentence for someone here without documentation who commits a crime. There's already a process in place, BTW, to "weed out" those we know have committed a crime, and send them back where they came from. We've been doing that in this country for quite a while now.

The crime was a tragedy, and I pray for the little girl and her family. The fact that the guy who did it was here illegally is blowing smoke.
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:45 pm

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:The fact that the guy who did it was here illegally is blowing smoke.


If this man were not in this country illegally, we would still have a sweet little 6 year old girl not violated.

Outrage doesn't begin to explain how we should view this evil action for this father... grandfather.

If we discover this was not the first crime of this man are you willing to at least be outraged at the system that allows such a person to commit second and more crimes?
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Haruo » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:05 am

To compare the illegal to citizen crimes is blowing smoke and avoiding the issue.

That assertion quite literally makes no sense to me. If a citizen rapes a child that is (as I see it) exactly the same crime as if a person in the country without state sanction rapes a child. Same thing, too, if a legal immigrant, or a tourist on the appropriate visa, or a tourist who has overstayed his visa, commits the same crime. If the issue is the rape of a child, then focusing on the immigration status of the criminal is what I think of as blowing smoke.
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:13 am

Haruo wrote:
To compare the illegal to citizen crimes is blowing smoke and avoiding the issue.

That assertion quite literally makes no sense to me. If a citizen rapes a child that is (as I see it) exactly the same crime as if a person in the country without state sanction rapes a child. Same thing, too, if a legal immigrant, or a tourist on the appropriate visa, or a tourist who has overstayed his visa, commits the same crime. If the issue is the rape of a child, then focusing on the immigration status of the criminal is what I think of as blowing smoke.


If the illegal had not been in this country, there would be a 6 year old girl in NJ who would not have been raped.

It is not that difficult to understand.

I cannot have a citizen who commits such a crime removed, his wickedness is a USA citizen problem we will deal with. Yet, removing any and all who could and do not belong here and who might commit such a crime (or others) we can remove. Every criminal we get out of the country is a criminal who cannot commit a crime in this country.

Lots of passion on the forum on reducing guns but not much on reducing illegal criminals. Sad - very sad.

And all the hoopla whining over lack of compassion of those affected by the hurricanes. Very telling... yes, very telling.
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:32 am

If a person commits a crime, there should be appropriate punishment as well as opportunities for rehabilitation. Deportation as part of a sentence makes no sense. Those we deport simply come back, find a new location, and may well offend again. The document status of a person should not change the way they are punished for crimes for which they are convicted in a court of law.
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Jim » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:44 am

KeithE wrote:
Jim wrote:
KeithE wrote:
That we need to do something about.

The number-crunchers always love to compare apples with oranges, like the U.S., 74% white but with other ethnic groups from every corner of the world, with Finland, 99% Finn/Swede, allowing for a homogeneity that almost seems impossible. Just the makeup of Chicago, Baltimore or San Francisco is enough to see how disingenuous this is, made up as they are by groups ranging from the gang-bangers to multiple-ethnics to perverts. The interesting thing, though, is the fact that suicide by firearm in the U.S. is nearly twice that of homicide by firearm. The total suicide rate is 12.4 per 100,000 but there's no panicky crowd looking for impossible-to-find motives, as in the Las Vegas matter. So...are gun laws needed to protect citizens from willfully shooting themselves?


You are correct about the suicide by firearms is about twice that of homicide by firearms. Yep! Just looked at the chart and figured it out all by myself! Firearm control ought to help some there as well.



Are you saying that the government should have the right to try to neutralize God's awarding of free will to an individual who decides to shoot himself? In other words, should the government play God?
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:11 am

Jim wrote:Are you saying that the government should have the right to try to neutralize God's awarding of free will to an individual who decides to shoot himself? In other words, should the government play God?


I guess then that all medical care should be outlawed since most suicides are the result of illness (mental or psychological), then all medical interventions are playing God. Right?
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Sandy » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:46 am

Jon Estes wrote:Lots of passion on the forum on reducing guns but not much on reducing illegal criminals. Sad - very sad.


Probably because gun violence is a substantially greater, much more pressing and significant problem than crime committed by those here illegally. You're firing cannons at gnats. It's very sad that you're not more outraged about a greater problem that has affected the lives of hundreds of children who are victims of gun violence, most of whom could have been avoided by laws with responsible enforcement.
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Jim » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:16 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:
Jim wrote:Are you saying that the government should have the right to try to neutralize God's awarding of free will to an individual who decides to shoot himself? In other words, should the government play God?


I guess then that all medical care should be outlawed since most suicides are the result of illness (mental or psychological), then all medical interventions are playing God. Right?


I notice that you're always GUESSING when you post. Strange. I don't agree that most suicides accrue to mental or psychological illness. While Christ committed sacrifice, he also committed suicide since he had a choice. I don't think he was mentally ill. You may GUESS that all medical care should be outlawed because of mental illness but I obviously don't buy it. In fact, I have no idea what you're talking about with that or medical interventions outlawed because of playing God. Is an appendectomy, for instance, playing God? It's just a repair job like overhauling a transmission.
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:37 pm

Jim wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:
Jim wrote:Are you saying that the government should have the right to try to neutralize God's awarding of free will to an individual who decides to shoot himself? In other words, should the government play God?


I guess then that all medical care should be outlawed since most suicides are the result of illness (mental or psychological), then all medical interventions are playing God. Right?


I notice that you're always GUESSING when you post. Strange. I don't agree that most suicides accrue to mental or psychological illness. While Christ committed sacrifice, he also committed suicide since he had a choice. I don't think he was mentally ill. You may GUESS that all medical care should be outlawed because of mental illness but I obviously don't buy it. In fact, I have no idea what you're talking about with that or medical interventions outlawed because of playing God. Is an appendectomy, for instance, playing God? It's just a repair job like overhauling a transmission.


I just tried to carry your logic out to its conclusion. That is all.
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Haruo » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:44 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:
Jim wrote:Are you saying that the government should have the right to try to neutralize God's awarding of free will to an individual who decides to shoot himself? In other words, should the government play God?


I guess then that all medical care should be outlawed since most suicides are the result of illness (mental or psychological), then all medical interventions are playing God. Right?

Yes, and it's especially wicked to try to ameliorate labor pains and the pain of giving birth, because God decreed that pain to get Eve back for leading Adam astray.
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Any outrage over this?

Postby Sandy » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:29 pm

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... ce-officer

White kid, not an immigrant or here illegally. Native Texan. On a campus where students are allowed to conceal carry, ostensibly to "make the campus safer." Students his age are not allowed to carry, but he got hold of a weapon somehow, and managed to shoot the officer inside the campus police station.

So now a university police officer is dead. Preventable? I think so.
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Re: Any outrage over this?

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:17 pm

Sandy wrote:http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/10/556777734/texas-tech-student-held-in-shooting-death-of-campus-police-officer

White kid, not an immigrant or here illegally. Native Texan. On a campus where students are allowed to conceal carry, ostensibly to "make the campus safer." Students his age are not allowed to carry, but he got hold of a weapon somehow, and managed to shoot the officer inside the campus police station.

So now a university police officer is dead. Preventable? I think so.


Yes, to more gun laws to stop the killings.

No, to more laws to end the illegal alien problem.

And still, a 6 year old girl has been traumatised, violated, abused by someone who should not have been here and the topic of this thread is being ignored by most here.

I understand why.

I do wonder though, if it were your child or grandchild would you be so silent or is just saying it is a tragedy or outrage a few times so you can get back to your comfort topics.

I said sad earlier... now I say sick.
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Sandy » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:44 pm

The illegal immigrant in this case, Edgar Mendoza, is from Guatemala. And according to several of the news sources, other than Fox, he will be deported to Guatemala.

http://www.trentonian.com/article/TT/20 ... /170929981

It does not appear that a new law is needed. Someone here illegally is deported if they commit a crime.

As far as the problem of illegal immigration is concerned, most of the people who are here who are illegal entered during the eight years of the Bush administration when he cut the budget for the Border Patrol and border enforcement. Apparently, this guy was one of them. The number of illegal border crossings went way down during the Obama administration, deportations went up (you can easily check that out).

This particular illegal will be deported because he committed a crime, and drew attention to himself. The vast majority of them, far fewer than American citizens, do not commit crimes. Sanctuary cities aren't the problem. Enforcement is. Republicans won't come down on businesses and corporations that provide jobs for illegals which is why they come and why they stay. If you find an illegal working at a business in this country without a green card, thus, illegally, fine the business enough to make it hurt, and the problem will go away. If they get caught twice, close them down. Guaranteed to reduce the numbers of illegals in the country.
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:40 am

Sandy wrote:The illegal immigrant in this case, Edgar Mendoza, is from Guatemala. And according to several of the news sources, other than Fox, he will be deported to Guatemala.

http://www.trentonian.com/article/TT/20 ... /170929981

It does not appear that a new law is needed. Someone here illegally is deported if they commit a crime.

As far as the problem of illegal immigration is concerned, most of the people who are here who are illegal entered during the eight years of the Bush administration when he cut the budget for the Border Patrol and border enforcement. Apparently, this guy was one of them. The number of illegal border crossings went way down during the Obama administration, deportations went up (you can easily check that out).

This particular illegal will be deported because he committed a crime, and drew attention to himself. The vast majority of them, far fewer than American citizens, do not commit crimes. Sanctuary cities aren't the problem. Enforcement is. Republicans won't come down on businesses and corporations that provide jobs for illegals which is why they come and why they stay. If you find an illegal working at a business in this country without a green card, thus, illegally, fine the business enough to make it hurt, and the problem will go away. If they get caught twice, close them down. Guaranteed to reduce the numbers of illegals in the country.


Sorry - deportation on this one is not the answer. Would deportation be enough for you if this 6 year old girl was in your family? I hope not. This guy should never return to Guatemala but spend the rest of his life behind bars at the minimum.

Missed your broken heart comments about the 6 year old girl. Just get back to business on slamming the Republicans.

Please do not ever speak to me on compassion towards anything. If you can't have it towards this 6 year old girl, any other time is a show.

Almost sounds like someone saying - The criminal has been caught... he will be deported... what difference does it make now.

:blech: :blech: :blech:
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Sandy » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:57 am

Jon Estes wrote:
Sandy wrote:The illegal immigrant in this case, Edgar Mendoza, is from Guatemala. And according to several of the news sources, other than Fox, he will be deported to Guatemala.

http://www.trentonian.com/article/TT/20 ... /170929981

It does not appear that a new law is needed. Someone here illegally is deported if they commit a crime.

As far as the problem of illegal immigration is concerned, most of the people who are here who are illegal entered during the eight years of the Bush administration when he cut the budget for the Border Patrol and border enforcement. Apparently, this guy was one of them. The number of illegal border crossings went way down during the Obama administration, deportations went up (you can easily check that out).

This particular illegal will be deported because he committed a crime, and drew attention to himself. The vast majority of them, far fewer than American citizens, do not commit crimes. Sanctuary cities aren't the problem. Enforcement is. Republicans won't come down on businesses and corporations that provide jobs for illegals which is why they come and why they stay. If you find an illegal working at a business in this country without a green card, thus, illegally, fine the business enough to make it hurt, and the problem will go away. If they get caught twice, close them down. Guaranteed to reduce the numbers of illegals in the country.


Sorry - deportation on this one is not the answer. Would deportation be enough for you if this 6 year old girl was in your family? I hope not. This guy should never return to Guatemala but spend the rest of his life behind bars at the minimum.

Missed your broken heart comments about the 6 year old girl. Just get back to business on slamming the Republicans.

Please do not ever speak to me on compassion towards anything. If you can't have it towards this 6 year old girl, any other time is a show.

Almost sounds like someone saying - The criminal has been caught... he will be deported... what difference does it make now.

:blech: :blech: :blech:


Yes you did miss them. It's in my very first post in this thread. I take it that attentiveness to others in a conversation is not one of your strong suits.
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Re: Where is the outrage here...

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:35 am

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
Sandy wrote:The illegal immigrant in this case, Edgar Mendoza, is from Guatemala. And according to several of the news sources, other than Fox, he will be deported to Guatemala.

http://www.trentonian.com/article/TT/20 ... /170929981

It does not appear that a new law is needed. Someone here illegally is deported if they commit a crime.

As far as the problem of illegal immigration is concerned, most of the people who are here who are illegal entered during the eight years of the Bush administration when he cut the budget for the Border Patrol and border enforcement. Apparently, this guy was one of them. The number of illegal border crossings went way down during the Obama administration, deportations went up (you can easily check that out).

This particular illegal will be deported because he committed a crime, and drew attention to himself. The vast majority of them, far fewer than American citizens, do not commit crimes. Sanctuary cities aren't the problem. Enforcement is. Republicans won't come down on businesses and corporations that provide jobs for illegals which is why they come and why they stay. If you find an illegal working at a business in this country without a green card, thus, illegally, fine the business enough to make it hurt, and the problem will go away. If they get caught twice, close them down. Guaranteed to reduce the numbers of illegals in the country.


Sorry - deportation on this one is not the answer. Would deportation be enough for you if this 6 year old girl was in your family? I hope not. This guy should never return to Guatemala but spend the rest of his life behind bars at the minimum.

Missed your broken heart comments about the 6 year old girl. Just get back to business on slamming the Republicans.

Please do not ever speak to me on compassion towards anything. If you can't have it towards this 6 year old girl, any other time is a show.

Almost sounds like someone saying - The criminal has been caught... he will be deported... what difference does it make now.

:blech: :blech: :blech:


Yes you did miss them. It's in my very first post in this thread. I take it that attentiveness to others in a conversation is not one of your strong suits.


Speaking of your reply I was replying too. You mention the criminal by name - act as if deportation is fair punishment - knock Rep's - ...

Not one word of heart towards the child. No worries... I understand why.
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