Protesting that makes sense... if possible

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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Sandy » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:54 pm

Rvaughn wrote:And another matter of perspective could be that if Donald Trump had supported the players kneeling, would some of the same people who are supporting the players now be against them instead?


No, because the issue is what it is, whether Trump supports the players or not. I think most people would be happy to see Trump actually acknowledging what is a real problem, and indicate that as President, he's interested in doing something about it. That would be leadership that I think most people would support. Unfortunately, Trump is too inept and incompetent to exercise any kind of leadership, and besides, that would be helping people of a different race.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby JE Pettibone » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:17 pm

Ed: Another interesting set of stats.

https://www.odmp.org/search/year
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Rvaughn » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:45 pm

Sandy wrote:No, because the issue is what it is, whether Trump supports the players or not. I think most people would be happy to see Trump actually acknowledging what is a real problem, and indicate that as President, he's interested in doing something about it. That would be leadership that I think most people would support. Unfortunately, Trump is too inept and incompetent to exercise any kind of leadership, and besides, that would be helping people of a different race.
The made-up issues can be whatever we make them up to be. It is a real issue that anti-Trump anger drives a lot of what is happening now.

[BTW, I didn't disagree that a different set of players and a different could change the whole complexion of the discussion. But I notice you can never agree with anything that doesn't fit your statements about Trump -- written by a man who did not vote for Trump, never could and never will.]
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby John Sneed » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:34 pm

This is just me and I seem to be on the tail end of everything, but when I see people disrespecting the National Anthem, I know it is not the Anthem but the country. I see guys sitting or kneeling, I see people saying "I hate the United States." That is me. That is what I see. My two cents, for what it is worth.

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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Sandy » Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:34 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
Sandy wrote:No, because the issue is what it is, whether Trump supports the players or not. I think most people would be happy to see Trump actually acknowledging what is a real problem, and indicate that as President, he's interested in doing something about it. That would be leadership that I think most people would support. Unfortunately, Trump is too inept and incompetent to exercise any kind of leadership, and besides, that would be helping people of a different race.
The made-up issues can be whatever we make them up to be. It is a real issue that anti-Trump anger drives a lot of what is happening now.

[BTW, I didn't disagree that a different set of players and a different could change the whole complexion of the discussion. But I notice you can never agree with anything that doesn't fit your statements about Trump -- written by a man who did not vote for Trump, never could and never will.]


Trump had absolutely nothing to do with either the protests or the issue until he interjected himself into it. His interjection makes no difference to me, since I was already in favor of protecting the player's right to freedom of conscience in choosing to protest as they did, and favorable toward the perspective that members of minority groups, particularly African Americans, are not treated equally when it comes to the way they are treated by police and the courts. My perspective of either of those issues was unaffected before Trump got involved, and his involvement or position would not change mine.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby KeithE » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:36 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
Sandy wrote:No, because the issue is what it is, whether Trump supports the players or not. I think most people would be happy to see Trump actually acknowledging what is a real problem, and indicate that as President, he's interested in doing something about it. That would be leadership that I think most people would support. Unfortunately, Trump is too inept and incompetent to exercise any kind of leadership, and besides, that would be helping people of a different race.
The made-up issues can be whatever we make them up to be. It is a real issue that anti-Trump anger drives a lot of what is happening now.


Kaepernickel’s issue (police brutality particularly against blacks) has been an issue for decades. Kaepernick did not just "make-it up". Read about the issue here and Ed’s counter points here.

207 blacks have been kill by police altercations so far in 2017 (69% of which were killings of non-violent/unarmed blacks), vs 98 police deaths in the line of duty so far in 2017 (40 deaths plausibly during an altercation {gunfire/stabbing/assaults/vehicle assaults} the others due to non-alteration causes {e.g. accidents, heart attacks} - read the “Line of Duty Deaths:98” causes near the top of Ed's link).

The anti-Trump anger is growing and he has his own words and actions to blame for that. The underlined sentences in Sandy’s text above is the Presidential thing to do - not asking police to rough them up some more. Use of tasers/tear gas, police armor, and police training to shoot at their feet and negotiated resolution are responsible acts that ought to be initiated and/or strengthened.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Rvaughn » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:47 pm

Keith, the "made-up issues" have nothing to do with Kaepernick's issue -- or at least only in the broad sense of talking about it in the same thread. The "made-up issues" refer to when Sandy suggested the reaction could be different "if the players had been white" and when I also suggested that some people would have reacted differently if Trump had reacted differently (aka, some of the protesters are protesting against Trump, not police).
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Rvaughn » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:54 pm

An interesting occurrence related to the anthem protest:
Is DirecTV refunding offended customers of NFL protests?
My uneducated guess is that this is a sort of "PR" move on the part of DirecTV, and also that not that many people will cancel.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Jim » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:23 pm

The “K-affair” is finally working its way into the penultimate silliness mode. The Saints (at least some of them, black and white) took the knee in London yesterday, ostensibly to show their “loyalty-to-teammates” uber-righteousness. This is the same outfit that a few years ago was paying its players “bounty-bonuses” for actually injuring the opposition's players (get them out of the game), especially their quarterbacks. The coach was suspended for a year when he should have been suspended forever. The underlying theme for the blacks is their easily recognizable hatred of this country, sort of like biting the hand that feeds. Football is part of the entertainment industry, which just about says it all with regard to its supercilious sanctimonious loyalty to teammates and Clinton and Sanders (in 2016), never recognizing that a Private sleeping in a tent in Afghanistan means more to this country than all the NFL stuffed-shirt millionaires (both black and white) combined. The same can be said for the MSM, which keeps the pot boiling a la Sharpton/Jackson. In fact, it's a lead-pipe cinch that probably 90% or more of the players never wore the uniform and consider a GI about, as John Kerry put it back when he was considering another run, to wit, that guys who don't make it in high school wind up in the Middle East dodging bullets or losing their lives. Disrespect for the anthem and flag, never mind the reasons/causes given, is another way of expressing black racism toward whites, just as wrong as the reverse.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Haruo » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:50 pm

Jim wrote: The underlying theme for the blacks is their easily recognizable hatred of this country, sort of like biting the hand that feeds.

So, what is "the underlying theme" for the whites? You said some of both took the knee.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Jim » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:18 pm

Haruo wrote:
Jim wrote: The underlying theme for the blacks is their easily recognizable hatred of this country, sort of like biting the hand that feeds.

So, what is "the underlying theme" for the whites? You said some of both took the knee.

Seems they were showing solidarity with their knee-knocking black teammates, something more important than showing solidarity with at least most of the rest of the citizenry, which isn't black. The knee-knocking team-owners are the real hypocrites. This is even less than a tempest in a teapot, just a chance to gain a bit more attention, since twerking doesn't seem enough, according to the owners, to keep the faithful's attention to the latest concussions. If unfamiliar with twerking, look it up.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby KeithE » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:16 pm

Kaepernick keeps up on his promises. $900 K donated to many worthy charities so far this year. He has promised $1M.

Colin Kaepernick, recently spurned by Titans—wins coveted NFL honor

He is from a small town in the Central Valley of California- Turlock.

From Wiki:
Kaepernick was born in 1987 in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, to Heidi Russo, a 19-year-old who was single at the time.[4] His birth father, an African American man, left Russo before Colin was born.[5][6] Russo placed Colin for adoption with Rick and Teresa Kaepernick, a white couple who had two children—son Kyle and daughter Devon—and were looking for a boy after losing two other sons to heart defects.[5][7] Kaepernick became the youngest of their three children. He lived in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, until age four, and attended grade school in Turlock, California.[8][9]

When Kaepernick was eight years old, he began playing youth football as a defensive end and punter. He then became his youth team's starting quarterback at age nine, and he completed his first competitive pass for a long touchdown.[8] A 4.0 GPA student[10] at John H. Pitman High School in Turlock, California, Kaepernick played football, basketball and baseball and was nominated for All-State selection in all three sports his senior year. He was the Most Valuable Player (MVP) of the Central California Conference in football, leading his school to its first-ever playoff victory. In basketball, he was a first-team all CCC selection at forward and led his 16th-ranked team to a near upset of #1 ranked Oak Ridge High School in the opening round of playoffs. In that game, Kaepernick scored 34 points, but Ryan Anderson of Oak Ridge scored 50 to beat him.[11]

On December 4, 2010 (his senior year) against Louisiana Tech University, Kaepernick joined Florida's Tim Tebow as the second quarterback in FBS history to throw for 20 touchdowns and run for 20 in the same season. Later that same evening, Auburn's Cam Newton joined Tebow and Kaepernick as the third.


My dad spent his last 10 years of life in Turlock at a “Covenant Home” with 4 previous Covenant Ministers of his, living at the same facility. While growing up in the SF Bay Area, I heard Turlock had the highest church participation in CA and the highest juvenile delinquency rate since if you were caught behind the barn smoking you went to Juvenile detection. I know of one large evangelical church there Turlock Covenant Church. It is a Covenant town referring to my home denomination the Evangelical Covenant Church. The Covenant is conservative (but tolerant) and emphasizes both personal piety and social justice.

Interesting article:Colin Kaepernick vs. Tim Tebow: A tale of two Christians on their knees

I applaud both QBs and the life they are leading now.

The whole article is worth reading but here are some quotes:
They’re both Christian football players, and they’re both known for kneeling on the field, although for very different reasons.

One grew up the son of Baptist missionaries to the Philippines. The other was baptized Methodist, confirmed Lutheran, and attended a Baptist church during college.

Both have made a public display of their faith. Both are prayerful and devout.

This is the tale of two Christian sports personalities, one of whom is the darling of the American church while the other is reviled. And their differences reveal much about the brand of Christianity preferred by many in the church today.


Tebow:
During his college football career, the Heisman Trophy winner frequently wore references to Bible verses on his eye black, including the ubiquitous John 3:16 during the 2009 BCS Championship Game.


Kaepernick:
His body is festooned with religious tattoos, including depictions of scrolls, a cross, praying hands, angels defeating demons, terms like “To God be the Glory,” “Heaven Sent,” “God will guide me,” Psalm 18:39 and Psalm 27:3
.

It seems to me that Tim Tebow and Colin Kaepernick represent the two very different forms that American Christianity has come to.

And not just in the United States. In many parts of the world it feels as though the church is separating into two versions, one that values personal piety, gentleness, respect for cultural mores, and an emphasis on moral issues like abortion and homosexuality, and another that values social justice, community development, racial reconciliation, and political activism.


I applaud both brands of Christianity as long as neither type derides/judges the other type. Imo, both should be practiced. I am more Kaeperian.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby William Thornton » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:27 pm

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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Sandy » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:02 pm

It will be a while before the long term effects of Kaepernick's protest will be felt. There's no question his, and other player's protests have advanced the awareness of the problems and issues they are protesting to a point well beyond where it was prior to doing it. It takes awareness for action to happen. In spite of optimism and change in recent years, racism is still entrenched, and finds outlets to keep the ideology moving and having an effect. It's easy to ignore a problem that doesn't have a direct impact on your own life or family.

Yeah, these guys have been provided an opportunity to get to a place where few people do in their career, especially in an entertainment business. But that's not the point, even though many of them have their own personal stories of having to struggle against pervasive injustice. They realize that they are in a unique position to use what they've been given to advocate for those who are not in a position of power to fight injustice themselves. They weighted the cost of their protest against the benefits, and guessed correctly. There's been some frumpted up complaining, a little bit of booing, and some social media nastiness. But the NFL is still the NFL. People still love their football, and their teams, and the games. The opposition to their chosen method of protesting is a minority, and it's been relatively neutralized by the shows of solidarity and sympathy with the protesting players. The games go on, for the most part completely unaffected. So I'd say they've made progress, and time will tell how much of an affect their protests had on bringing change.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby KeithE » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:28 pm



William, what is wrong about the Frost’s/Wash Post’s "two Christians” story? What heresy is being passed along in that article?

After reading the Mattiingly’s/getreligion article that William offered, the “heresy is that is being passed along" is what Billy Graham spoke about the he said:

Evangelicals and evangelism have always been bracketed. So much so that the adjectives ‘evangelical’ and ‘evangelistic’ have often been identified in the popular mind. It is not at all surprising, therefore, that whenever evangelicals have become concerned about social issues, some eyebrows have been raised, and questions have been asked whether the cause of the gospel is not about to be betrayed.


And Mattingly then says
So I am not arguing with Frost's conclusion.

He goes on to be moderately critical that Frost did not mention enough of Tebow’s social justice activities helping the poor. But he gave no examples. I’d argue that Tebow's anti-abortion stance is standing up for the very “least of these” which Frost did mention.

I stand by both QBs doing their Christian duty in their own ways.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby KeithE » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:36 pm

Sandy wrote:It will be a while before the long term effects of Kaepernick's protest will be felt. There's no question his, and other player's protests have advanced the awareness of the problems and issues they are protesting to a point well beyond where it was prior to doing it. It takes awareness for action to happen. In spite of optimism and change in recent years, racism is still entrenched, and finds outlets to keep the ideology moving and having an effect. It's easy to ignore a problem that doesn't have a direct impact on your own life or family.

Yeah, these guys have been provided an opportunity to get to a place where few people do in their career, especially in an entertainment business. But that's not the point, even though many of them have their own personal stories of having to struggle against pervasive injustice. They realize that they are in a unique position to use what they've been given to advocate for those who are not in a position of power to fight injustice themselves. They weighted the cost of their protest against the benefits, and guessed correctly. There's been some frumpted up complaining, a little bit of booing, and some social media nastiness. But the NFL is still the NFL. People still love their football, and their teams, and the games. The opposition to their chosen method of protesting is a minority, and it's been relatively neutralized by the shows of solidarity and sympathy with the protesting players. The games go on, for the most part completely unaffected. So I'd say they've made progress, and time will tell how much of an affect their protests had on bringing change.

And by “these guys” you may (like me) be talking about both Tebow and Kaepernick. I would agree with what you say. Or, you could have meant Kaerpernick and other protesting NFLers. I would agree with that as well.

Now that third guy who ran and threw for 20 TDs in a year while in college, got into trouble this week:
Cam Newton Draws Rebuke for Mocking Female Reporter
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby William Thornton » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:50 am

The " two Christians" piece" is flawed, as Mattingly writes:

"Readers are told that Tebow is living out one version of the Christian faith, while Kaepernick is living out another.

The problem, of course, is that Tebow has – throughout his career – been relentless in his work with a wide array of charities, investing both his money, his skills as a fundraiser and his own time and talents. Much of this work has focused on the needs of children, especially orphans, in impoverished nations (the missionary kind side of Tebow's life) as well as special-needs children everywhere. That led to this fun Tonight Show moment a few months ago."

WP carried it because it fit the MSM narrative about American Christianity being neatly divided into the pious but mostly all talk, conservative evangelicals and the social justice, relentlessly working for the cause, religious libs.

Mattingly is not clear on what the "heresy" is for which he employs the term in his title.

Tebow isn't not the "darling" of all and is haughtily and lustily reviled by many, same as Kape.

It is a salient point for Mattingly to speculate what would happen if players protested abortion before games by kneeling. Owners would quickly squash that, I suppose, and sports media and MSM would take a different tack as well' I'd guess.

I commend Kaoe for good works and make no judgment about his faith. His protest is silly and confusing. But I'll let the NFL owners chew on how much money they are willing to indirectly invest in it.

At any rate, the piece by a religion prof in Australia has a big hole in it but why mess up a good title with balance and facts?
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Sandy » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:38 pm

KeithE wrote:And by “these guys” you may (like me) be talking about both Tebow and Kaepernick. I would agree with what you say. Or, you could have meant Kaerpernick and other protesting NFLers. I would agree with that as well.


Clearly, Tebow knew the value of the platform of his celebrity status, stemming mainly from his college career, and used it for the benefit of others. His was mainly a platform for evangelistic ministry, and for the encouragement of younger people when it came to Christian values. Digging into internet information to find out what business these privileged, rich NFL players have with a protest against injustice in their community uncovered a pretty significant level of community involvement, everything from millions of dollars invested in youth community programs, and in all kinds of social services. They're generous, and most of them don't wear it on their sleeve, they just do it because they know where they came from and they know what they do makes a difference.

I don't see the "two versions of the faith" comparison as wholly legitimate, either. Working in social justice, advocacy, social ministry and the "social gospel" is very clearly rooted in the spiritual and intellectual principles of scripture. It requires the "mind of Christ," as Paul says, in order to understand how to minister to people in a wholistic, spiritual way, You can't separate the two.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Rvaughn » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:12 pm

An article I read yesterday about Jerry Jones and the protests mentioned that the NFL’s Game Operations Manual addresses the National Anthem. I had never seen it referenced before. Assuming Time and Sports Illustrated got it right, here is what it says:

“The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem. During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.”

I thought that is interesting, and am surprised I had not seen it mentioned before. While it says the players “should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand and refrain from talking” it does not say they must. Interestingly, though, it does say “all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem” -- something some teams chose not to do to avoid the controversy. Of course, this was a team choice, not a player choice, so I am not suggesting any fines are forthcoming.
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