Protesting that makes sense... if possible

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Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Jon Estes » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:27 am

The protest happening in the NFL has lost its way.

Injustice is wrong. Making your stand against injustice should happen but in a manner that draws attention to the injustice.

You don't mistreat the flag... anthem... or do your thing in a manner which minimizes your cause and stirs up a bigger one. This is what has happened in the kneeling fiasco. By choosing the anthem/flag means to have your protest, the ones who you want to hear your position have been angered and you have made it less likely, if at all, to be heard.

You don’t get to slap my dad to get my attention that someone down the street treated you unfairly. If that is your means to make your point, It will not work and you will probably get smacked back with vengeance.

Let your protest make sense.

Making no sense may be what they want...

Stirring up the crowd may be the plan...

We need a Martin not a Malcom.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby JE Pettibone » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:19 am

Jon Estes wrote:The protest happening in the NFL has lost its way.

Injustice is wrong. Making your stand against injustice should happen but in a manner that draws attention to the injustice.

You don't mistreat the flag... anthem... or do your thing in a manner which minimizes your cause and stirs up a bigger one. This is what has happened in the kneeling fiasco. By choosing the anthem/flag means to have your protest, the ones who you want to hear your position have been angered and you have made it less likely, if at all, to be heard.

You don’t get to slap my dad to get my attention that someone down the street treated you unfairly. If that is your means to make your point, It will not work and you will probably get smacked back with vengeance.

Let your protest make sense.

Making no sense may be what they want...


Stirring up the crowd may be the plan...

We need a Martin not a Malcom.


Ed: Jon, you did well until the last three lines.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Jon Estes » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:41 am

JE Pettibone wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:The protest happening in the NFL has lost its way.

Injustice is wrong. Making your stand against injustice should happen but in a manner that draws attention to the injustice.

You don't mistreat the flag... anthem... or do your thing in a manner which minimizes your cause and stirs up a bigger one. This is what has happened in the kneeling fiasco. By choosing the anthem/flag means to have your protest, the ones who you want to hear your position have been angered and you have made it less likely, if at all, to be heard.

You don’t get to slap my dad to get my attention that someone down the street treated you unfairly. If that is your means to make your point, It will not work and you will probably get smacked back with vengeance.

Let your protest make sense.

Making no sense may be what they want...


Stirring up the crowd may be the plan...

We need a Martin not a Malcom.


Ed: Jon, you did well until the last three lines.


Ed - I will agree with you but as I was typing the thoughts came to me and I pounded the words out on the keyboard to get a response. It was fun and good for a personal laugh.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby KeithE » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:23 am

Here’s some history of the whole Kaepernick “protest” affair.

http://www.snopes.com/veteran-kaepernick-take-a-knee-anthem/

He sat down when the anthem was played for his own private reason - he didn’t feel like celebrating a country that allowed undue police brutality of colored people (often to the point of death).

He did this private protest quietly until his third “sitting” when a reporter asked him about it. He was asked whether his “protest” was anti-military and here is his response:
Kaepernick: I have great respect for the men and women that have fought for this country. I have family, I have friends that have gone and fought for this country. And they fight for freedom, they fight for the people, they fight for liberty and justice, for everyone. That’s not happening. People are dying in vain because this country isn’t holding their end of the bargain up, as far as giving freedom and justice, liberty to everybody. That’s something that’s not happening. I’ve seen videos, I’ve seen circumstances where men and women that have been in the military have come back and been treated unjustly by the country they have fought for, and have been murdered by the country they fought for, on our land. That’s not right.


He was then asked if his sitting was a blanket condemnation of law enforcement? His answer

There is police brutality. People of color have been targeted by police. So that’s a large part of it and they’re government officials. They are put in place by the government. So that’s something that this country has to change. There’s things we can do to hold them more accountable. Make those standards higher. You have people that practice law and are lawyers and go to school for eight years, but you can become a cop in six months and don’t have to have the same amount of training as a cosmetologist. That’s insane. Someone that’s holding a curling iron has more education and more training than people that have a gun and are going out on the street to protect us.


I cannot argue with either of his statements - yet he has been blackballed out of NFL employment for taking this stance in a non-violent manner. There was no disrespect for the flag or the military or the principles of our country. In fact he was supporting the principle of our country of fair treatment to all.

Since then, he has answered questions and gave his views when asked - he is not a Martin (making speeches, organizing non-violate marches) or a Malcolm (writing and rallying people)

Through poignant letters and discussion (read the link above) with Nate Boyer (an ex-Army Special Forces now a Seattle Seahawk) they came to the understanding that “kneeling" would be a better symbol in that it was an army tradition to kneel in front of fallen soldiers. As Boyer said:
We sorta came to a middle ground where he would take a knee alongside his teammate. Soldiers take a knee in front of a fallen brother’s grave, you know, to show respect. When we’re on a patrol, you know, and we go into a security halt, we take a knee, and we pull security.


Thus kneeling was in respect for the military especially the fallen. It grew to maybe 5 players joining in as the hNFL season started.

But then Trump blew into my hometown:
President Donald Trump told supporters during a rally that owners should fire any player who engaged in the demonstration, saying, “Get that son of a bitch off the field right now, he’s fired. He’s fired.”

And that is what inflated the number of players/owners taking a knee, sitting, interlocking arms, and various other symbolic actions against the President. Now most of the “demonstrators” are protesting against Trump’s attitudes and attempts to tell owners what do.

Poll: 84% Support the NFL players

According to a survey conducted this week by the Seton Hall Sports Poll, 84% of Americans surveyed support NFL players’ right to protest—even if they vary on how they feel the protest should be carried out.

16% of respondents say that protesters should be dropped from their team.


Trump also at this rally mocked the protections of football players with advanced helmets in a time when the prevalence of CTE injuries among the players is becoming known.

To be fair to Jon, he is only saying the protest does not “make sense", not that the players/coaches/owners do not have the right to protest. But as it has turned out, it has heightened the police brutality issue to a degree. If Kaepernick had just talked to the press or facebooked his concerns of police brutality, it would not have gotten any attention.

It has also shown our President to be an ineffective “nationalistic” cheerleader and one who thinks he can control business owners. Remember also that Trump is one who has given permission to security guards and police to “rough them up”.


Let’s make some sense (and good) come from the whole affair by:
(1) Pointing out the inappropriate misdirection in a crude manner by the President disrespecting the American right to peaceful protest and deliberately fanning the flames of the culture war.
(2) Do not be taken in by nationalism - our allegiance belongs to God (I have recognized that for years by standing but not covering my heart when the anthem is played).
(3) Honor the price paid by fallen heroes- military, police, or protesters (particularly peaceful ones)
(4) Start prosecuting police brutality
(5) More police training for tense situations.
(6) Increase football player protection from concussions
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby William Thornton » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:55 am

This is a loser for the NFL and Kape. Good old fashioned capitalism will make the former run from it. Coddled, millionaire athletes and billionaire owners aren't the most sympathetic bunch. I can live without the NFL but I did take in a soccer game at Arthur Blank's (Atlanta Falcons owner) new $1.5+ billion stadium. It is magnificent...and to think, taxpayers paid for a good chunk of it. I bought a couple of $2 hot dogs IN the stadium, along with a souvenir cup drink (free refills), nachos and cheese and bottled water...13 bucks total. Chic-fil-A sandwich and a drink at the UGA game costs about that much.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby KeithE » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:19 am

William Thornton wrote:This is a loser for the NFL and Kape. Good old fashioned capitalism will make the former run from it.


Whatever you want to believe.

Poll: 84% Support the NFL players

According to a survey conducted this week by the Seton Hall Sports Poll, 84% of Americans surveyed support NFL players’ right to protest—even if they vary on how they feel the protest should be carried out.

16% of respondents say that protesters should be dropped from their team.


I believe it is a minor loser issue for Trump.

Poll: Majority disapproves of Trump response to NFL protests

A majority in a new poll disapprove of President Trump's response to NFL players kneeling in protest during the national anthem.

A HuffPost/YouGov poll finds 57 percent of respondents disapprove of the way Trump has responded to the protests. Forty-two percent strongly disapprove of Trump's response, according to the poll.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby William Thornton » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:26 am

If this continues follow the money. Polls are meaningless. Ask Hil.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Sandy » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:43 pm

Well, let's see. Jon provides nothing but his own speculation regarding the NFL protests. William diverts. Keith finds facts and citations to support a different perspective. Factually, it doesn't seem to be much of a "loser" for the NFL, but Trump's tweets have sure turned it into one for him. Flap your lips all you want to, there are the facts that Keith cited, with plenty of evidence in support, and none of it from "left biased MSM sources."

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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Jim » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:12 pm

Regardless of how the NFL fiasco happened, it has been predictably co-opted as a race issue (especially by the MSM), as is almost everything in this nation that is afforded notoriety. K didn't protest anything in particular (no sign, etc.) until asked for a reason, which smacked of racism, white, of course. Any game in the pros or university system appears as a micro-NAACP convention. 74% of NBA players are black, as are 72% in the NFL. According to Forbes (15 December 2016), the average player-wages in the NBA and NFL are $6.2 million and $2.1 million, respectively. LeBron James makes $31 million per year, not counting the endorsements. Only 8% of Major League baseball players are black (avg. $4.4 million per year), with Latinos taking over that sport. Neither the flag nor the anthem has anything to do with the “knee-taking.” It's all about race and the evil white man who is the oppressor although probably 90% of all spectators are white while only 7% of the population is made up of black MEN, who play these sports. So, forget anything that has to do with patriotism regarding the “protests.” There is now the clamor for more dialogues, which, of course, only exacerbates the issue, never solves it...and never will.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Sandy » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:47 pm

Jim wrote:Regardless of how the NFL fiasco happened, it has been predictably co-opted as a race issue (especially by the MSM), as is almost everything in this nation that is afforded notoriety. K didn't protest anything in particular (no sign, etc.) until asked for a reason, which smacked of racism, white, of course. Any game in the pros or university system appears as a micro-NAACP convention. 74% of NBA players are black, as are 72% in the NFL. According to Forbes (15 December 2016), the average player-wages in the NBA and NFL are $6.2 million and $2.1 million, respectively. LeBron James makes $31 million per year, not counting the endorsements. Only 8% of Major League baseball players are black (avg. $4.4 million per year), with Latinos taking over that sport. Neither the flag nor the anthem has anything to do with the “knee-taking.” It's all about race and the evil white man who is the oppressor although probably 90% of all spectators are white while only 7% of the population is made up of black MEN, who play these sports. So, forget anything that has to do with patriotism regarding the “protests.” There is now the clamor for more dialogues, which, of course, only exacerbates the issue, never solves it...and never will.


It isn't about any of that. Nor is it about the salaries of the players who are protesting, and they've been very clear that it's not about themselves. You've got some real antagonism toward African Americans, and some real resentment of their success in professional sports. You sound like someone who thinks they just need to be put "in their place," which isn't in your world.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby William Thornton » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:49 pm

You knew this was coming: The Chicago Police Dept has replaced all sirens with the National Anthem, to force suspects to stop runnng when they hear sirens.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Jim » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:52 pm

Is the rumor true that the protesters at the next Patriots game will have signs in bold letters: Black Quarterbacks Matter? Maybe that's what K should have been doing when he sat that first time. If he didn't mention anything until the third game as a reason, that might indicate something but I don't know what. K only made $17 million or thereabouts last year so he may have needed to advertise. The whole thing is much ado about very little. How many people have ever heard of K, his fellow knee-knockers or anything else having to do with the NFL? Oh yes, I am, of course, a racist, so this means no one will have to bother with a post calling me such.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Sandy » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:43 pm

Jim wrote: Oh yes, I am, of course, a racist, so this means no one will have to bother with a post calling me such.


OK. Glad that's settled.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:09 pm

Jon Estes wrote:Injustice is wrong. Making your stand against injustice should happen but in a manner that draws attention to the injustice.
I agree. As this "protest" has gained steam, I think it is mainly drawing attention to the protesters and not injustices. I support free speech and the right to protest, but I think this specific protest is ill-chosen. No matter what one says about why he is protesting, many people (even some of those who support their right to protest) will see it as disrespectful of the country, of men & women in uniform, and especially of those who have paid the highest price to provide their right to protest.

I support free speech, but also understand it is not absolute. The football players protesting on the job with impunity underscores their celebrity status. Most of us lowly laborers know that we have to speak up on our own time and on our own dime.

Related: The PBS NewsHour/Marist poll on the topic
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby KeithE » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:50 am

Rvaughn wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:Injustice is wrong. Making your stand against injustice should happen but in a manner that draws attention to the injustice.
I agree. As this "protest" has gained steam, I think it is mainly drawing attention to the protesters and not injustices. I support free speech and the right to protest, but I think this specific protest is ill-chosen. No matter what one says about why he is protesting, many people (even some of those who support their right to protest) will see it as disrespectful of the country, of men & women in uniform, and especially of those who have paid the highest price to provide their right to protest.

But the original protester (Colin Kaepernick) was protesting against police brutality that has often led to people paying the “highest price”. In case you missed it, read my earlier post here. Particularly the history of the protest.

Keapernick’s “sitting" for three games (Aug 14, 21, 26, 2016) was about police killings of black people. The national anthem lauds our country not just the military.

Kaepernick's “kneeling" (on Sept 2, 2016 with teammate Eric Reid) was in fact inspired by the Army tradition of kneeling for fallen heroes, after discussions with Nate Boyer (ex-Green Beret and currently a Seattle Seahawk) - please read the history of the protest in the link above.

The large number of NFL kneelers/arm interlockers (witnessed last Sunday, Sept 24, 2017) are not so much siding with Kaepernick as they are against Trump’s foul-mouthed/high handedness/disrespect for protesting expressed in his rally in Huntsville on Friday Sept 22, 2017. Each kneeler/interlocker no doubt has his own reason in his own mind, but I’m practically sure none are against “men & women in {military} uniform, and especially of those who have paid the highest price to provide their right to protest”. The likes of FoxNews and the RW pundits are spinning it that way. But most are just anti-Trump’s foul-mouthed (SoB)/high handedness (telling owners to “fire” them)/disrespect for protesting (an American right and tradition). Now there are probably some (at long last agreeing with Kaepernick) that were protesting men and women in police uniform being brutal particularly against blacks. Maybe several are protesting several things.

Rvaughn wrote:I support free speech, but also understand it is not absolute. The football players protesting on the job with impunity underscores their celebrity status. Most of us lowly laborers know that we have to speak up on our own time and on our own dime.

Sure protest should not be consider an absolute right if it materially harms those not protesting - this has not crossed the threshold in any way.

The actual protest did not waste any time or use any money at all. The anthem was played as usual and there are no more bills to be paid by the taxpayers. News media has paid a lot more but that is their choice. It has sparked national discussion and that is good.

Now Trump has spent an inordinate amount of his time tweeting about this when he should be more involved in North Korea, hurricane relief, controlling his own cabinet, and his version of MAGA (which apparently leaves Puerto Rico / US Virgin Islands as not part of "America First").

Rvaughn wrote:Related: The PBS NewsHour/Marist poll on the topic

Thanks for that poll - it is not inconsistent with the Seton Hall poll I raised:
Poll: 84% Support the NFL players
which asked a question about the “right” of the NFLers to protest
According to a survey conducted this week by the Seton Hall Sports Poll, 84% of Americans surveyed support NFL players’ right to protest—even if they vary on how they feel the protest should be carried out


While your PBS/Marist poll asked a different question - are the protests respectful?
Nearly half — 48 percent — of U.S. adults said these demonstrations were a respectful way to draw attention to their concerns, while another 46 percent said the protests are disrespectful. The remaining 6 percent of Americans said they were unsure.


If I understand you right, Rvaughn, you would have answered the question to the Seton Hall poll I raised with a YES (the players have a right to protest) but answered NO to the PBS/Marist poll you raised (were the protests were respectful). Now I hope that the protest history I provided might change your opinion on the PBS/Marist poll.

The PBS/Marist poll also had another question that highlights the great divide in this country between the parties.

Image


And getting back to Kaepernick’s original protestation, read the FACTS about the police killings of blacks here. It is worthy of protestation as it is just staying about the same year and year with no meaningful improvement. Someone should raise the issue until something is done about it.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Jon Estes » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:00 am

KeithE wrote:
Rvaughn wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:Injustice is wrong. Making your stand against injustice should happen but in a manner that draws attention to the injustice.
I agree. As this "protest" has gained steam, I think it is mainly drawing attention to the protesters and not injustices. I support free speech and the right to protest, but I think this specific protest is ill-chosen. No matter what one says about why he is protesting, many people (even some of those who support their right to protest) will see it as disrespectful of the country, of men & women in uniform, and especially of those who have paid the highest price to provide their right to protest.

But the original protester (Colin Kaepernick) was protesting against police brutality that has often led to people paying the “highest price”. In case you missed it, read my earlier post here. Particularly the history of the protest.

Keapernick’s “sitting" for three games (Aug 14, 21, 26, 2016) was about police killings of black people. The national anthem lauds our country not just the military.

Kaepernick's “kneeling" (on Sept 2, 2016 with teammate Eric Reid) was in fact inspired by the Army tradition of kneeling for fallen heroes, after discussions with Nate Boyer (ex-Green Beret and currently a Seattle Seahawk) - please read the history of the protest in the link above.

The large number of NFL kneelers/arm interlockers (witnessed last Sunday, Sept 24, 2017) are not so much siding with Kaepernick as they are against Trump’s foul-mouthed/high handedness/disrespect for protesting expressed in his rally in Huntsville on Friday Sept 22, 2017. Each kneeler/interlocker no doubt has his own reason in his own mind, but I’m practically sure none are against “men & women in {military} uniform, and especially of those who have paid the highest price to provide their right to protest”. The likes of FoxNews and the RW pundits are spinning it that way. But most are just anti-Trump’s foul-mouthed (SoB)/high handedness (telling owners to “fire” them)/disrespect for protesting (an American right and tradition). Now there are probably some (at long last agreeing with Kaepernick) that were protesting men and women in police uniform being brutal particularly against blacks. Maybe several are protesting several things.

Rvaughn wrote:I support free speech, but also understand it is not absolute. The football players protesting on the job with impunity underscores their celebrity status. Most of us lowly laborers know that we have to speak up on our own time and on our own dime.

Sure protest should not be consider an absolute right if it materially harms those not protesting - this has not crossed the threshold in any way.

The actual protest did not waste any time or use any money at all. The anthem was played as usual and there are no more bills to be paid by the taxpayers. News media has paid a lot more but that is their choice. It has sparked national discussion and that is good.

Now Trump has spent an inordinate amount of his time tweeting about this when he should be more involved in North Korea, hurricane relief, controlling his own cabinet, and his version of MAGA (which apparently leaves Puerto Rico / US Virgin Islands as not part of "America First").

Rvaughn wrote:Related: The PBS NewsHour/Marist poll on the topic

Thanks for that poll - it is not inconsistent with the Seton Hall poll I raised:
Poll: 84% Support the NFL players
which asked a question about the “right” of the NFLers to protest
According to a survey conducted this week by the Seton Hall Sports Poll, 84% of Americans surveyed support NFL players’ right to protest—even if they vary on how they feel the protest should be carried out


While your PBS/Marist poll asked a different question - are the protests respectful?
Nearly half — 48 percent — of U.S. adults said these demonstrations were a respectful way to draw attention to their concerns, while another 46 percent said the protests are disrespectful. The remaining 6 percent of Americans said they were unsure.


If I understand you right, Rvaughn, you would have answered the question to the Seton Hall poll I raised with a YES (the players have a right to protest) but answered NO to the PBS/Marist poll you raised (were the protests were respectful). Now I hope that the protest history I provided might change your opinion on the PBS/Marist poll.

The PBS/Marist poll also had another question that highlights the great divide in this country between the parties.

Image


And getting back to Kaepernick’s original protestation, read the FACTS about the police killings of blacks here. It is worthy of protestation as it is just staying about the same year and year with no meaningful improvement. Someone should raise the issue until something is done about it.

The reason for the protest was lost to many patriotic Americans when they used the anthem and flag as their sounding board.

I support the NFLs right to protest but I do not support they way they did it as it allowed their method to overshadow their cause.

Trump seemed to say what many Americans are thinking.

Sorry, but you don't get to disrespect the anthem and flag which is precious to so many just because you have an argument against being mistreated by the cops and others and then have a fit because there is an uproar.

They do though have to live with the response they receive from the choice they make.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Rvaughn » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:36 am

KeithE wrote:But the original protester (Colin Kaepernick) was protesting against police brutality...And getting back to Kaepernick’s original protestation...
I remember Kaepernick's original protest -- which occurred without fanfare a couple of times before the media caught on, apparently. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the current protesters couldn't tell you what Kaepernick's protest was rooted in.


KeithE wrote:Sure protest should not be consider an absolute right if it materially harms those not protesting - this has not crossed the threshold in any way.

The actual protest did not waste any time or use any money at all. The anthem was played as usual and there are no more bills to be paid by the taxpayers. News media has paid a lot more but that is their choice. It has sparked national discussion and that is good.
I think my point got lost in there somewhere. I didn't say anything about anybody being harmed or it wasting time or costing money, especially the taxpayers. My point is that being able to have the luxury of such a protest is because they are high-paid celebrity prima donnas who can get by with it "on the job" -- yes, they are on their job, even if it is a game. I am a pastor, but a bi-vocational one. I spend 40 hours a week as someone's employee. Most folks like us aren't celebrities and have to confine our protests to our own time. I think that is another thing that gets under many folks skin. Ultimately, if their employers allow them to protest on the job, that is between them and the employer. Of course, those who "pay" the employers also have their right to protest. Cleveland Businessman Allan Jones Pulls NFL Ads After National Anthem Snub

KeithE wrote:If I understand you right, Rvaughn, you would have answered the question to the Seton Hall poll I raised with a YES (the players have a right to protest) but answered NO to the PBS/Marist poll you raised (were the protests were respectful). Now I hope that the protest history I provided might change your opinion on the PBS/Marist poll.
That is basically correct. I believe they have right to protest, but that right extends on their job only to the extent that their employers (team owners and NFL rules) allow it -- which they are doing. Others don't have to respect their protest, only their right to do so, and can protest their protest if they wish. On the second, I think the protest is ill-advised -- disrespectful if you want to call it that -- and continuance of the protest has become more about partisan politics than any injustices.

To swat briefly at the other side, I find it ironic that a lot of guys (and maybe some gals) are sitting on the divan watching TV while the national anthem is played and sung, and complaining about a football player sitting while the anthem is being played and sung. Why doesn't he stand up?

There's nothing inherently patriotic about a football game, so perhaps we should just move on, remove the anthem from being used at all. The players could find some other arena from which to protest.
Last edited by Rvaughn on Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:45 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Sandy » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:39 am

Jon Estes wrote:Trump seemed to say what many Americans are thinking.


An ambiguous 'many". An overwhelming majority thinks otherwise.

Jon Estes wrote:Sorry, but you don't get to disrespect the anthem and flag which is precious to so many just because you have an argument against being mistreated by the cops and others and then have a fit because there is an uproar.

They do though have to live with the response they receive from the choice they make.


Saying that the protest is "disrespecting the anthem and the flag" is putting your own constriction on what they're doing. It's just your opinion, but it isn't theirs, or that of a clear majority of Americans, and it doesn't define "disrespect". Those who have chosen to protest have made it clear that they are not disrespecting either the flag or the anthem, and since they are the ones doing the protesting, they are the ones who get to define their actions, and the constitution protects their decision of conscience.

So what kind of response will they have to "live with"? A little bit of social media venting. The likelihood that little change will actually result from their protest. A few people burning their team gear (on which the team and players have already collected their royalties), and a few disgruntled fans trying to turn in their tickets. There's been a real effort on the part of team owners and players who haven't participated in the protests to respect those who have, and to come up with ways to be respectful of their rights and feelings while building team unity. The attempt by Trump to turn it into a political issue backfired big time, and bit him in the rear.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Rvaughn » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:52 am

Sandy wrote:Saying that the protest is "disrespecting the anthem and the flag" is putting your own constriction on what they're doing. It's just your opinion, but it isn't theirs, or that of a clear majority of Americans, and it doesn't define "disrespect". Those who have chosen to protest have made it clear that they are not disrespecting either the flag or the anthem, and since they are the ones doing the protesting, they are the ones who get to define their actions, and the constitution protects their decision of conscience.
You are correct that the protesters (not only in this case) get to define what they are protesting and why. Nevertheless, wise protesters should also consider whether their chosen protest is getting their message across. The results of the PBS/Marist poll (48 %-46%) should at least call in question the effectiveness of the protest. And when the poll breaks it down along party lines, that surely looks to me like no one's mind is being changed!
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Sandy » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:32 am

Rvaughn wrote:
Sandy wrote:Saying that the protest is "disrespecting the anthem and the flag" is putting your own constriction on what they're doing. It's just your opinion, but it isn't theirs, or that of a clear majority of Americans, and it doesn't define "disrespect". Those who have chosen to protest have made it clear that they are not disrespecting either the flag or the anthem, and since they are the ones doing the protesting, they are the ones who get to define their actions, and the constitution protects their decision of conscience.
You are correct that the protesters (not only in this case) get to define what they are protesting and why. Nevertheless, wise protesters should also consider whether their chosen protest is getting their message across. The results of the PBS/Marist poll (48 %-46%) should at least call in question the effectiveness of the protest. And when the poll breaks it down along party lines, that surely looks to me like no one's mind is being changed!


If you put the polls together, it's pretty much 50-50 on whether players should or should not protest in the way they've chosen. Is that surprising? Probably not, but getting half of the people to realize there's a problem is a win for the players who are protesting, and particularly for Kaepernick. But when you start talking about whether or not some authority should intervene to prevent this kind of protest, the numbers against doing that go way up. And the polls which ask the question, "Have the protests been effective?" show that between 60 and 70% believe they have been. Trump's attempt to turn this into a political advantage for him to cash in has resulted in similar numbers, 60 to 70%, against him.

I don't think any NFL owner will touch this with any kind of rule. They may sit down, talk with players, and try to buffer this, but they're not going to risk the law suits and the blowback that will result from any kind of punitive action, or some kind of rule restricting free speech. The problem they have is that they need the players and their talent more than the players need them. We'll see some kind of attempt, at least by some owners, to make private efforts to initiate conversations that address the issue of racial profiling and police injustice. The same polls also show there is increased awareness of, and sympathy for, the issue that the players are protesting. That's probably as good an outcome as they could get.

I'd be in that percentage of Americans who wouldn't personally use the anthem as a means to protest anything. I'd find another way to protest. But, as I've said before, I've never been racially profiled, pulled over by police because of my race, created suspicion and attention of security because I was walking through a residential area inhabited by people of a different race, watched like a hawk when I walked into a convenience store, pushed down and suffocated for standing on the sidewalk, and I've never lived with the fear caused by having my church burned, or the risk of being attacked simply because of my race. The majority of NFL players are African American, and many of them have experienced the same kind of treatment that they are prostesting. They worked their way to where they are, and football was their escape, and now they are using their platform to speak out. Collectively, they spend multiple millions of dollars to reach back into the communities they came from and help, and their deep feelings have prompted these protests. This is America. It's their choice, and their right.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby KeithE » Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:03 pm

Rvaughn wrote:. On the second, I think the protest is ill-advised -- disrespectful if you want to call it that -- and continuance of the protest has become more about partisan politics than any injustices.

It is not I who has called the “ill-advised” Kaepernick/NFL protest disrespectful; I did call the RW counter protest as disrespectful of the American principle (d spellchecker) of peaceful protest.

But I agree with you here about the protests becoming partisan. More precisely, it is now more about Trumpian polemics than just party loyalty.

And I agree that for the most part, the injustice (police brutally issue) is lost. But note that is not because of anything Kaepernick did or said, but due to Trump’s misdirecting the discussion.

So let’s get back there. https://mappingpoliceviolence.org
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Rvaughn » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:17 pm

A lot of the discussion in the media has been framed as if this is a case of First Amendment rights of free speech. But the first amendment is a restriction on the government, not private employers. There are other issues of labor laws, contracts and such like that may come into play, but the football players have no "first amendment right" of free speech to protest while on the job. But Sandy is right, the players are higher paid, higher profile and more important than the coaches or owners, so the owners will handle it with kid gloves. They know where their bread is buttered. If the fans protest were to become so strong they come not ignore, then they would do something. But folks are going to buy tickets, pay for parking, buy concessions, buy jerseys and other memorabilia, and as long as they do the owners aren't worried. Its the economic reality that drives the situation, not philosophical views on either side of the protests.

Where I work, folks who are under contract basically can't be fired unless they violate the contract. But if they anger the wrong people they can certainly be reassigned, even to a closet (at the same pay, of course). That's just not going to happen to a really good player in the NFL, at least rarely happen.

Keith, you are right that a lot of this has been redirected toward Trump and maybe a lot of people will forget what was all about in the first place. But we can't blame all that on Trump. Those who responded to Trump instead of the original focus are also guilty of having a part in the misdirection. If you strike me on the cheek, I can choose to strike back or I can choose to turn the other cheek. When I strike back that is my decision, even if you hit me first.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:38 pm

Frankly, the issue seemed dead until the Tweeter in Chief reactivated it. The NFL season started with little note of this issue and a few kneeling players. When Trump needed to divert attention from the failing Trumpcare plan and from his HHS Secretary's private jet trips, he stirred this. It has gotten more headlines than even the PR devastation. It's sad how we Americans fall for this trickery.
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Sandy » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:27 pm

Put a little different perspective on it. Had the players been white, and had the injustice involved gun rights, would the same people be whining about disrespecting the flag or the anthem?
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Re: Protesting that makes sense... if possible

Postby Rvaughn » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:24 pm

And another matter of perspective could be that if Donald Trump had supported the players kneeling, would some of the same people who are supporting the players now be against them instead?
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