DACA

The place to discuss politics and policy issues that are not directly related to matters of faith.

Moderator: KeithE

Re: DACA

Postby Jon Estes » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:21 am

The first responsibility Christians have towards any and all who would be or are affected by DACA's policy removal is to share Jesus with them.

On another forum, this was brought up and I had to admit I got more into the political side of things (though a law still needs to be followed or changed) and didn't stop to consider the greatest compassion for these people is not where their home will be on this planet but where will their home be when the exit this planet. We can fulfill the GC no matter what happens legally or politically and isn't that the charge we have as a priority.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:14 am

Re: DACA

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:49 am

Jon Estes wrote:The first responsibility Christians have towards any and all who would be or are affected by DACA's policy removal is to share Jesus with them.

On another forum, this was brought up and I had to admit I got more into the political side of things (though a law still needs to be followed or changed) and didn't stop to consider the greatest compassion for these people is not where their home will be on this planet but where will their home be when the exit this planet. We can fulfill the GC no matter what happens legally or politically and isn't that the charge we have as a priority.


And, Jon, to earn the right to tell them about Jesus, don't we need to show them Jesus in our actions?
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6928
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: DACA

Postby Sandy » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:47 pm

Most of the New Testament accounts of Jesus preaching the gospel involved his either healing people or feeding them first, ministering to their immediate need before offering the gospel message. I'd say there's a good chance that many of those who qualify for DACA are already Christians.

I think what we have here is another case where right wing politics weights heavier than Christian principles and practices, especially among Evangelical supporters of Trump.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8130
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: DACA

Postby Haruo » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:56 pm

Jon Estes wrote:We can fulfill the GC no matter what happens legally or politically and isn't that the charge we have as a priority.

GC is an ambiguous term. Jesus used it twice. It's sort of analogous to "Why do we rest on the seventh day?"
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11624
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:42 pm

Jon Estes wrote:The first responsibility Christians have towards any and all who would be or are affected by DACA's policy removal is to share Jesus with them.

On another forum, this was brought up and I had to admit I got more into the political side of things (though a law still needs to be followed or changed) and didn't stop to consider the greatest compassion for these people is not where their home will be on this planet but where will their home be when the exit this planet. We can fulfill the GC no matter what happens legally or politically and isn't that the charge we have as a priority.
Jon, I read that as well. I thought it was the best comment in the entire thread over there -- so much so that I quoted it in the concluding paragraph of what I wrote about immigration yesterday.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 529
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: DACA

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:31 pm

My question is this, "Can we separate the Great Commission from the Great Commandments?" By Great Commandments--Love the Lord...., Love your neighbor."
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6928
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: DACA

Postby Haruo » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:46 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:My question is this, "Can we separate the Great Commission from the Great Commandments?" By Great Commandments--Love the Lord...., Love your neighbor."

And not just "love your neighbor", but "love your neighbor as you do yourself", in like manner and degree. As Sandy pointed out, Jesus started with meeting physical needs. Dare we do less? Replacing this with a mere need to preach in my view cheapens the duty we bear to be, as best we can, Christ to our neighbors. Citizens or not.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11624
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:34 pm

I don't think anyone (at least here) is advocating fulfilling the Great Commission sans the Great Commandments. The point of the comment that Jon referenced, at least as I see it, is fulfilling Christian and church responsibilities to people regardless of what choices our government make. I have written my three Congressmen asking them to support passage of a "DACA-like" law. Such a law may happen or it may not. We still have individual and church responsibilities regardless of what happens.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 529
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: DACA

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:29 am

Dave Roberts wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:The first responsibility Christians have towards any and all who would be or are affected by DACA's policy removal is to share Jesus with them.

On another forum, this was brought up and I had to admit I got more into the political side of things (though a law still needs to be followed or changed) and didn't stop to consider the greatest compassion for these people is not where their home will be on this planet but where will their home be when the exit this planet. We can fulfill the GC no matter what happens legally or politically and isn't that the charge we have as a priority.


And, Jon, to earn the right to tell them about Jesus, don't we need to show them Jesus in our actions?


Dave the point is, we can let them know we love them no matter what choice the government will / or can / or must make, no one is stopping that. If we pull someone out of their physical despair but never give them Jesus, we have failed the GC (God's command).

Telling them about Jesus is not a right we must earn but a command we must follow. I wish all Believers understood this.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:14 am

Re: DACA

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:31 am

Haruo wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:We can fulfill the GC no matter what happens legally or politically and isn't that the charge we have as a priority.

GC is an ambiguous term. Jesus used it twice. It's sort of analogous to "Why do we rest on the seventh day?"


If Jesus only used it once - it is there... Nothing ambiguous about it. Saying it's analogous to resting on the seventh day is weird at best.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:14 am

Re: DACA

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:35 am

Rvaughn wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:The first responsibility Christians have towards any and all who would be or are affected by DACA's policy removal is to share Jesus with them.

On another forum, this was brought up and I had to admit I got more into the political side of things (though a law still needs to be followed or changed) and didn't stop to consider the greatest compassion for these people is not where their home will be on this planet but where will their home be when the exit this planet. We can fulfill the GC no matter what happens legally or politically and isn't that the charge we have as a priority.
Jon, I read that as well. I thought it was the best comment in the entire thread over there -- so much so that I quoted it in the concluding paragraph of what I wrote about immigration yesterday.


You are correct RV. I have done so many church mission trips where we put on roofs, painted and fixed homes, had a program but had to fight with my church members to stop and tell them directly, lovingly, graciously about the most important thing they need to know...Jesus. For the believer why is this even being debated? Excuses to remain quiet with the gospel is sin. Romans 1:16
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:14 am

Re: DACA

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:43 am

Dave Roberts wrote:My question is this, "Can we separate the Great Commission from the Great Commandments?" By Great Commandments--Love the Lord...., Love your neighbor."


No... but Christians are saying they are loving their neighbor when they give a helping hand but never give the gospel. SO the believer is lying to themselves if they think physical kindness is enough when the gospel is not presented. That bottle of water will only last a while but the saving grace of Jesus is forever. To not give the gospel no matter how good the culture says you are doing is not biblical compassion.

Great commission

Win them - Make Disciples
Wash them - Baptizing them
Woo them - Teaching them what He has commanded
WOW them - He will be with us always

For those of you who believe in our command the share the gospel can use this sermon outline I preached recently. If you do not think it is a direct commandment of God for His children to present the gospel clearly demonstrating our love of Jesus and our heart towards the lost - please use it anyway, maybe someone who hears it will get it and begin seeing the lost around them and start telling them.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:14 am

Re: DACA

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:44 am

Rvaughn wrote:I don't think anyone (at least here) is advocating fulfilling the Great Commission sans the Great Commandments. The point of the comment that Jon referenced, at least as I see it, is fulfilling Christian and church responsibilities to people regardless of what choices our government make. I have written my three Congressmen asking them to support passage of a "DACA-like" law. Such a law may happen or it may not. We still have individual and church responsibilities regardless of what happens.


Said well RV.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:14 am

Re: DACA

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:56 am

Obama - DACA is illegal. Teaching for ten years of constitutional law, he knows the President cannot do something such as DACA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw4BIWiWyQg

Obama - DACA is temporary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7HpUrT20m4
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:14 am

Re: DACA

Postby Dave Roberts » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:18 am

I was talking this week with a couple ministering among hispanic immigrants. They do a great job of evangelizing through social ministries that become the springboard for the good news of Jesus. The DACA issue (as well as the deportation force) have crimped their numbers. When black vans with darkened windows park outside ministry sites, then the government is using the efforts to share the gospel in its sweep for undocumented workers. By the way, Jon, I can document where and when the black van appeared with its camera lenses behind the windows.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6928
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: DACA

Postby Haruo » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:12 am

Dave Roberts wrote:I was talking this week with a couple ministering among hispanic immigrants. They do a great job of evangelizing through social ministries that become the springboard for the good news of Jesus. The DACA issue (as well as the deportation force) have crimped their numbers. When black vans with darkened windows park outside ministry sites, then the government is using the efforts to share the gospel in its sweep for undocumented workers. By the way, Jon, I can document where and when the black van appeared with its camera lenses behind the windows.

Something considerably worse than being urged to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas".
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11624
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: DACA

Postby Haruo » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:14 am

Following Jesus doesn't just require that we "share the gospel with them while they are being deported" but that we share their deportation. There's a suggestion. Pick up our cross and follow him.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11624
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: DACA

Postby KeithE » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:19 pm

Haruo wrote:Following Jesus doesn't just require that we "share the gospel with them while they are being deported" but that we share their deportation. There's a suggestion. Pick up our cross and follow him.

I’m not going to do that. But AMEN.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8360
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: DACA

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:50 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:The first responsibility Christians have towards any and all who would be or are affected by DACA's policy removal is to share Jesus with them.

On another forum, this was brought up and I had to admit I got more into the political side of things (though a law still needs to be followed or changed) and didn't stop to consider the greatest compassion for these people is not where their home will be on this planet but where will their home be when the exit this planet. We can fulfill the GC no matter what happens legally or politically and isn't that the charge we have as a priority.


And, Jon, to earn the right to tell them about Jesus, don't we need to show them Jesus in our actions?


I am trying to find any passage of scripture that says we have to earn the right to witness. Can't find, even one.

Maybe you can show me Dave.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:14 am

Re: DACA

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:53 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:When black vans with darkened windows park outside ministry sites, then the government is using the efforts to share the gospel in its sweep for undocumented workers. By the way, Jon, I can document where and when the black van appeared with its camera lenses behind the windows.


This makes no sense. The government is in no way sharing the gospel. Why don't you knock on the window of that black van and tell those inside about Jesus. Give them a sandwich to to show love.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:14 am

Re: DACA

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:55 pm

Haruo wrote:Following Jesus doesn't just require that we "share the gospel with them while they are being deported" but that we share their deportation. There's a suggestion. Pick up our cross and follow him.


Anything to get out of sharing the gospel it seems. Share their deportation?????
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:14 am

Re: DACA

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:57 pm

I hope we all realize Hell is not only worse than wherever they came from and is also for eternity. No water being passed out down there either.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:14 am

Re: DACA

Postby Dave Roberts » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:54 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:When black vans with darkened windows park outside ministry sites, then the government is using the efforts to share the gospel in its sweep for undocumented workers. By the way, Jon, I can document where and when the black van appeared with its camera lenses behind the windows.


This makes no sense. The government is in no way sharing the gospel. Why don't you knock on the window of that black van and tell those inside about Jesus. Give them a sandwich to to show love.


No Hispanics returned to that Christian center to receive help and to hear the gospel in their own language. In fact, after ICE came, the center had to move inside a church where people could come and get out of their cars behind the church on private property. The government is not charged with sharing the gospel, but actions like that at a church-type mission certainly impede sharing the gospel.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6928
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: DACA

Postby Dave Roberts » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:01 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
Haruo wrote:Following Jesus doesn't just require that we "share the gospel with them while they are being deported" but that we share their deportation. There's a suggestion. Pick up our cross and follow him.


Anything to get out of sharing the gospel it seems. Share their deportation?????


Jon, I love how you destroy straw men that no one else would support. Getting a hearing is harder than just walking up and handing out a Spanish tract. Oh, wait, I was supposed to leave it on top of the urinal in a rest area.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6928
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:03 pm

Jon Estes wrote:I am trying to find any passage of scripture that says we have to earn the right to witness. Can't find, even one.
I thought about the same thing last night, but didn't get around to posting. I thought maybe it was this one in Mark 17: "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and earn the right to preach the gospel to every creature."

Obviously we ought to live right, do right, love our neighbors as ourselves, love the strangers, love our enemies, bless them that curse us, visit the widows and orphans in their affliction -- all because they are the right thing to do, because they are things Jesus commands us. And they are not just dry commands and dutiful obedience, but things that are good for both the giver and the receiver. These things may help open minds & hearts, but we don't do them to "earn the right" to preach the gospel. We do them because they are the right thing to do, and we have that "right" -- nay, duty -- to preach the gospel because Jesus gave it to us (e.g. Matt 28:18-20; Mark 16:15).
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 529
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: East Texas

PreviousNext

Return to Politics and Public Policy Issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron