DACA

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Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:37 pm

I didn't try to list all kinds of witnesses there might be, but mainly Bee and Cee to try to illustrate what I meant -- and threw in Dee for good measure. They could have been tweaked better with more thought. I'd say Witness Aaa and Witness Bee could easily be the same person, unless Witness Aaa never intends to share the gospel with anyone, or Witness Bee only helps meet human needs when he accidentally happens upon it. The Witness Cee type could go either way. There can be a very fine line between “tactical” and “disingenuous” -- maybe at times only visible in the heart of the one being “tactical” or “disingenuous,” or maybe not even clearly known to that person. Even if Joe really needed the nourishment, but Witness Cee didn’t bring the nourishment for nourishment’s sake it would be disingenuous (and I would call it tactical, though you apparently would not). In my life I’ve seen lots of people who appeared to do good deeds, but in truth their good deeds were a tactic for the purpose of “reeling in people to a church.” Witness Dee is a whack job, but I’ve known a few people who I am at least able to imagine doing what I described.

While there can and should be a difference in approach based on our belief systems, all too often in real life terms both the conservatives and the liberals have already determined which cherries are good and do not intend to be convinced otherwise.
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Re: DACA

Postby KeithE » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:23 pm

Rvaughn wrote:I didn't try to list all kinds of witnesses there might be, but mainly Bee and Cee to try to illustrate what I meant -- and threw in Dee for good measure. They could have been tweaked better with more thought. I'd say Witness Aaa and Witness Bee could easily be the same person, unless Witness Aaa never intends to share the gospel with anyone, or Witness Bee only helps meet human needs when he accidentally happens upon it. The Witness Cee type could go either way. There can be a very fine line between “tactical” and “disingenuous” -- maybe at times only visible in the heart of the one being “tactical” or “disingenuous,” or maybe not even clearly known to that person. Even if Joe really needed the nourishment, but Witness Cee didn’t bring the nourishment for nourishment’s sake it would be disingenuous (and I would call it tactical, though you apparently would not). In my life I’ve seen lots of people who appeared to do good deeds, but in truth their good deeds were a tactic for the purpose of “reeling in people to a church.” Witness Dee is a whack job, but I’ve known a few people who I am at least able to imagine doing what I described.

While there can and should be a difference in approach based on our belief systems, all too often in real life terms both the conservatives and the liberals have already determined which cherries are good and do not intend to be convinced otherwise.


We are largely in agreement about our assessments about the Aaas through Dees.

The one thing I have never understood is how conservatives (who ostensively presume that the Bible is 100% correct in all it says) can ignore so many contradictions and absurdities and moral duplicity in the bible. There are many pits among the cherries. Liberals can and do select the cherries with no inconsistency to their presumptions. I do understand the desire for certitude but really - do they really read the bible with clear eyes. I have found the reliance on the Spirit as superior/more consistent than reliance on either the bible or church/pastoral norms. Don’t care to argue that out - just expressing an honest observation.
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Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:51 pm

In accord with your wishes, for my part I'll leave it be with this last comment. If liberals think they select the cherries with no inconsistency to their presumptions, they may be as poor judges of themselves as conservatives are. Further, I don't understand how they think they find as their criterion the one they know about through a book with "so many contradictions and absurdities and moral duplicity."
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Re: DACA

Postby KeithE » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:17 pm

Keith said:
The one thing I have never understood is how conservatives (who ostensively presume that the Bible is 100% correct in all it says) can ignore so many contradictions and absurdities and moral duplicity in the bible. There are many pits among the cherries. Liberals can and do select the cherries with no inconsistency to their presumptions (added for clarity -namely that the bible contains a mixture of truth and error). I do understand the desire for certitude but really - do they really read the bible with clear eyes. I have found the reliance on the Spirit as superior/more consistent than reliance on either the bible or church/pastoral norms. Don’t care to argue that out - just expressing an honest observation.


Rvaughn wrote:In accord with your wishes, for my part I'll leave it be with this last comment. If liberals think they select the cherries with no inconsistency to their presumptions, they may be as poor judges of themselves as conservatives are. Further, I don't understand how they think they find as their criterion the one they know about through a book with "so many contradictions and absurdities and moral duplicity."


The presumption I speak of is that believers in inerrancy cannot allow for any error. Liberals have no such presumption - they may have other presumptions (e.g. political, ethical) and read into the bible what they want to. But those who rely on the Spirit let that Spirit direct their political and ethical views. I try to and in the process if the bible tells I am to stone to death my rebellious son, I am free to ignore that.

Deut 21:18-21:
If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Couple that with Matt 5:18-19
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

and you have an ethical conundrum. Personally I treat vs 18-19 as additions that Judaizers made. The rest the SotM makes sense if you do so. I let the Spirit direct me as to what to trust explicitly in the OT law and what to ignore or treat as temporary. When Leviticus 19:34 says:
The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

the Spirit leads me to agree. When Deut 21:18-21 tells me to some my rebellious son, I fortunately have ignored it - he is coming over for dinner quite soon and his seldom rebellious son (11 yrs) spent the day over here playing games with my wife and to a lesser extent me (they had school needlessly off today for fear of Irma).

------ as for your last sentence beginning with “Further.....”

The portrait we have of Jesus even without perfectly exact history (note diversity of narrative accounts in the Gospels) and His "ipso verbatim" (since those words are differently given in the Gospels for the same pericope) is adequate and robust (not subject to being broken if difference in his words and actions are found).
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Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:27 pm

Regarding the original topic of DACA, I was pleased that someone from my representatives office called regarding the letter that I sent to him. He left a message and asked me to call him. Then I was disappointed when he was unavailable when I called back. I don't recall having ever been called in response to correspondence I've made to my elected officials.
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Re: DACA

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:54 am

KeithE wrote:KeithE said:
I understand where you are probably coming from - a higher view of the bible that I have. So I was saying that it is incumbent of those of you with that higher view who want to make a point about what evangelism is about (or any other religious subject) actually use the bible to make their points - I find it very often that conservatives are more married to a conventional set of doctrines and practices than what they can justify in a whole bible (or even a whole of Jesus’s teachings) review of the relevant texts.


Jon said:
It is much more than being married to a specific set of doctrines. It is adherence to a specific Divine Word, given to us in scripture. That our higher view of scripture allows us to use scripture to back up our position, we make no apologies. That others use scripture like picking cherries, is a sad thing. All or nothing... or chaos ensues. It is more likely the next generation will have to deal with the chaos too many lay a foundation for in this generation.
That mere men have the audacity to believe they have the right to trump what God has already said opens Pandoras Box to an ever changing Theology.


Well, I challenge you then to take the whole counsel of scripture to as you say “back up ‘our’ position” with respect to what you call “illegal immigrants” and what the bible calls being hospitable to “foreigners”, “strangers”, or "visitors to your land”. You might start here. Sure I know you can ‘cherry pick’ Romans 13 and assume that “being subject to the authorities" means accepting every changeable law that regime is temporarily employing, hardly a non-chaotic “foundation”. Nor is the bible some source of some never changing theology, ethics if you are honest with the texts.

Even the bible says "The Letter the Law kills but the Spirit gives life". It is the Spirit that Jesus said “leads to all truth”, not the OT or any future canon. He’d also said the whole law is summed up as “loving God and loving your neighbor”. The fruit of the Spirit is “love, joy,....” and in my view deporting those who do not want to be is not “love”. These passages of the bible are among the high points of the bible that the Spirit leads me to fully believe, more so than others. Jesus lived by love in example and advice, and He said “you have heard it said of old, but I say to you”, which was at least a glancing blow to the old testament ethical commands. What Jesus warned against (in fact was quite angry about) is the religious-law obsessed Pharisees.

Neither religious laws or civil authority laws are the answer. Spirit-empowered love of all is.

As to how to do evangelism (bringing people to a Christ-like life, fulfilling the Creator’s desire for better world) it is best performed by meeting people’s needs more so than convincing a person to join a group of “believers" with some set of practices and doctrines (that may - or may not- have some set of proof biblical texts to cherry pick - ignoring other texts and more importantly the Spirit of God).

Sorry if this rubs you wrong. But give it some thought if you would; but if you feel comfortable where you stand, then stand there; but try not to criticize those of us that have moved on - you might say backslidden. I have lived under a more fundamentalist-consevative world view (such as you appear to be living in) and found good and bad in it (love and Spirit-led acts frequently shows up in such environments, but the uglier side frequently comes up as well - e.g. advocating deporting people, sour feelings towards LBGTs, islamophobia).

I believe the USA has been very hospitable. I also believe that, as I think we all would in our homes, tell the visitor it is time for them to go home. Now, if you would let a visitor come in without an invite and then stay without any notice of leaving and you would welcome them heartily - good for you. I am not sure most would.

Interesting that you are willing to throw out scripture, I'm not.

The major difference here is two fold... 1) I don't think compassion/hospitality is something that has no end. God ends His compassion when those who are wanting to enter heaven though not a citizen with... I know you not - depart. 2) I believe the whole book (Bible) - you do not (or so it seems) and because of that, this discussion/debate is useless unless you come to the point where you will accept all that God has given us in scripture as truth and build everything off of it, not just parts of it.

If your definition "Spirit powered love" does not include the gospel, then it is not a true Spirit powered love. If they get a meal or a house or a check but still go to hell then what good is the meal or house or check? If you do not believe in a real hell people go to, then maybe I need to bring you a pie.
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Re: DACA

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:00 am

Jon, you make an assumption that doesn't wash. Many of those refugees whom I have met are Christians from traditions far older than our Baptist tradition (unless you subscribe to the spurious "trail of blood" theory). I have met Egyptian Copts, Syrian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, and various stripes of Catholics including those in the Middle East who have married priests. Just because they did not come from America does not mean that are not my brothers and sisters in Christ. I welcome hearing their testimonies to faith in different communions of the faith.
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Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:08 am

Dave, I'm not following why you believe Jon thinks refugees are not Christians. To what are you referring?

Thanks.
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Re: DACA

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:55 am

Rvaughn wrote:Dave, I'm not following why you believe Jon thinks refugees are not Christians. To what are you referring?

Thanks.


He has continued to stress our need to witness to those in our country without documentation as being crucial. I assume that witnessing means we assume they are lost. It may be a false assumption, but that is the way I read it.
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Re: DACA

Postby KeithE » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:18 am

Jon Estes wrote:I believe the USA has been very hospitable. I also believe that, as I think we all would in our homes, tell the visitor it is time for them to go home. Now, if you would let a visitor come in without an invite and then stay without any notice of leaving and you would welcome them heartily - good for you. I am not sure most would.

Interesting that you are willing to throw out scripture, I'm not.

The major difference here is two fold... 1) I don't think compassion/hospitality is something that has no end. God ends His compassion when those who are wanting to enter heaven though not a citizen with... I know you not - depart. 2) I believe the whole book (Bible) - you do not (or so it seems) and because of that, this discussion/debate is useless unless you come to the point where you will accept all that God has given us in scripture as truth and build everything off of it, not just parts of it.

If your definition "Spirit powered love" does not include the gospel, then it is not a true Spirit powered love. If they get a meal or a house or a check but still go to hell then what good is the meal or house or check? If you do not believe in a real hell people go to, then maybe I need to bring you a pie.



As far as the US being hospitable - I agree we have been fairly hospitable over our history (to our benefit); but that may be changing in a negative fashion, imo.

Consider-
(1) As I previously posted, immigrants have been good for our economy: Peruse articles given here.
This report http://www.aijustice.org/the_truth_on_immigration has a good summary.

(2) the DACAmented in particular have a better criminal record than Americans in general:
As for Trump’s succesful demagoguery that immigrants (legal and illegal) are likely to be rapists and generally despicable people causing economic harm in the form of jobs losses, he is dead wrong. Even the very conservative CATO Institute has studies that conclude:
In his first week in office, President Donald Trump issued an executive order directing the Department of Homeland Security to deport most illegal immigrants who come in contact with law enforcement.1His order is based on the widespread perception that illegal immigrants are a significant source of crime in the United States.2 This brief uses American Community Survey data to analyze incarcerated immigrants according to their citizenship and legal status. All immigrants are less likely to be incarcerated than natives relative to their shares of the population. Even illegal immigrants are less likely to be incarcerated than native-born Americans.


Question - Did you read any of this?

Immigrants including the DACAmented are not to be thought of as unwanted guests that overstay their welcome (that is a poor analogy). Deporting the DACAmented would hurt. Read this and reconsider your stance.
-----------

As far as my throwing out scripture and our two differences:

I do throw out some of the bible - you are right. But that is consistent with my belief that the bible was inspired by God and is profitable for many things (as 2 Tim 3:15-17 says) but written by fallible people who sometimes got it imperfectly (as Jesus implies when He says - you have heard it said x, but I say y to you). In addition, it can be difficult to translate the original words into our language and to apply the intended message to our time and life situations. My claim is that the Spirit leads me in the parsing/translating/interpreting/applying process. Remember Paul says “The letter kills but the Spirit gives life”.

What I find odd is that inerrantists effectively throw out many scriptures as well, as you have apparently done in assessing your position of foreigners in this country.

Question - Did you consider Leviticus 19:34 says:
The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
(pretty clear).

or any of these OT and NT passages previously posted and repeated here.

Seems to me you are effectively throwing out a bunch as well (and that is against your assumption of an inerrant bible). Maybe you can explain (e.g. dispensations) and/or find me some “scripture” that urges us to deport foreigners.

-------------

As far as your statement: "If your definition "Spirit powered (sic) love" does not include the gospel, then it is not a true Spirit powered love.”

I would say that indeed we probably do not have identical gospels. The gospel to me is the "good news" that God forgives sin and if we turn to follow Jesus we can live a better life (more pleasing to God) and have a unimaginably great afterlife. It includes God’s offer of forgiveness (I think 7 x 70 really means unlimited). God is love after all. We should always "love God and all our neighbors" as a fundamental requirement of our behavior as well; and that means we should always please God and be looking to help others and “do under undo as we would want done to us”.

Question - Do you want to be deported from the UAE?

Note that I do think there is a "bad news" as well, that says if you do not follow Jesus's example in helping others (and not living by his anti-examples- the scribes and the Pharisees who were religious-law obsessed), you are not living an abundant life and may be subject to hell (I do harbor hope that all will be saved or given continued opportunity to accept God or merely cease to exist - and that is an important difference in our theologies). So I’m about evangelism as well, by encouraging all to follow Jesus and make professions of faiths. I do note that professions of faith are more easily made than helping meet human need (that is the bigger hurdle). There are and have always been millions that need help.

Apple pie is preferred, delivered by one of those Emirates Airlines stewardess. :wink:
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Re: DACA

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:55 am

Rvaughn wrote:Dave, I'm not following why you believe Jon thinks refugees are not Christians. To what are you referring?

Thanks.


That was my question too.
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Re: DACA

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:00 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:
Rvaughn wrote:Dave, I'm not following why you believe Jon thinks refugees are not Christians. To what are you referring?

Thanks.


He has continued to stress our need to witness to those in our country without documentation as being crucial. I assume that witnessing means we assume they are lost. It may be a false assumption, but that is the way I read it.


I assume all who I do not are saved... are lost. It causes me to seek to discover if they know the Jesus I know. If they do, great. If they don't, then I look for opportunity to witness.

Maybe that is unacceptable to you. I'm glad many years ago someone intentionally went out of their way to make sure I knew the Jesus they knew.

I'm not sure what drives you to witness but the reality of hell and people I cross paths with will end up there without Jesus. So I seek intentional opportunities to witness.
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Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:21 pm

KeithE wrote:...DACAmented...
Keith, what is DACAmented?

Thanks.
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Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:32 pm

Rvaughn wrote:Regarding the original topic of DACA, I was pleased that someone from my representative's office called regarding the letter that I sent to him.
Talked to this person today. I think it was mainly a courtesy call, but he remarked that mine was a different point of view that he thought the representative needed to hear. So I guess I'm cautiously optimistic.

BTW, my e-mail was directed specifically at DACA -- that we need something like it and it is the Congress's responsibility to do something about it (make it a law) rather than the President (executive action).
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Re: DACA

Postby KeithE » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:32 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
KeithE wrote:...DACAmented...
Keith, what is DACAmented?

Thanks.

DACAmented was a clever way some of the press was using to mean those ~800,000 people who went through the process to be declared an official DACA recipient.
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Re: DACA

Postby KeithE » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:34 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
Rvaughn wrote:Regarding the original topic of DACA, I was pleased that someone from my representative's office called regarding the letter that I sent to him.
Talked to this person today. I think it was mainly a courtesy call, but he remarked that mine was a different point of view that he thought the representative needed to hear. So I guess I'm cautiously optimistic.

BTW, my e-mail was directed specifically at DACA -- that we need something like it and it is the Congress's responsibility to do something about it (make it a law) rather than the President (executive action).


Thanks for doing that! That would be cleaner if it were a law. But until then I favor not scaring the DACAmented. Doing-unto-others (aka love) and economics beat rigid law and xenophobia any day.
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Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:16 pm

KeithE wrote:Thanks for doing that! That would be cleaner if it were a law. But until then I favor not scaring the DACAmented. Doing-unto-others (aka love) and economics beat rigid law and xenophobia any day.
Keith, I'm not following you. I think the "DACAmented"* are already scared, so I don't think a private e-mail to a congressman that mentions that such Presidential action as DACA is unconstitutional and needs to be made legal is likely to scare them more. Baptist News has a featured article that "Young immigrants nervous about Trump’s DACA decision." It is my contention that until this becomes a law there is too much potential for a roller coaster ride as it can be voked, revoked, unrevoked, rerevoked and so on at the whims of Presidents. That in itself is one argument why Congress must take this up!

[*Thanks for the definition. Not sure I like the word.]
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Re: DACA

Postby Haruo » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:03 am

KeithE wrote:
Rvaughn wrote:
KeithE wrote:...DACAmented...
Keith, what is DACAmented?

Thanks.

DACAmented was a clever way some of the press was using to mean those ~800,000 people who went through the process to be declared an official DACA recipient.

Yeah, it's a pun playing off"(un)documented. Ellin Jimmerson uses it all the time.
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Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:51 pm

I received an e-mail reply from one of my Senator's yesterday. Some parts of it sounded like a generic response that they include in responses about immigration, yet it seemed to hold out hope, saying, "We now have an opportunity to resolve this issue in a way that is constitutional. These children, who were brought to the United States illegally through no fault of their own, continue to make positive contributions to Texas and the nation. We should find a way to allow them to continue to contribute to American society."
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