DACA

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Re: DACA

Postby Haruo » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:06 pm

KeithE wrote:
Haruo wrote:Following Jesus doesn't just require that we "share the gospel with them while they are being deported" but that we share their deportation. There's a suggestion. Pick up our cross and follow him.

I’m not going to do that. But AMEN.

I'm not either, but in some sense I see that as my failure as a Christian.
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Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:09 pm

Haruo wrote:Following Jesus doesn't just require that we "share the gospel with them while they are being deported" but that we share their deportation. There's a suggestion. Pick up our cross and follow him.
What do you mean by "share their deportation"? If it means to go back with them to where they are deported and preach the gospel, I can agree as a general principle. Specifically, a person may be called to do that, but I don't think all of us are.
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Re: DACA

Postby Haruo » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:17 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
Haruo wrote:Following Jesus doesn't just require that we "share the gospel with them while they are being deported" but that we share their deportation. There's a suggestion. Pick up our cross and follow him.


Anything to get out of sharing the gospel it seems. Share their deportation?????

Perhaps. This is what Reverend Andy did at the church Mrs. H. and I attend here in Seattle. When the United States government packed his entire congregation into boxcars and sent them off to a concentration camp pursuant to an Executive Order, he and his family relocated to the vicinity of the camp so he could continue to minister to them. He didn't as far as I know seek to be incarcerated with them, and they needed him to be free of that, but I have the sense he would have if called to. And he did indeed follow them into their exile if not their prison.

Robert, I was throwing out a concept for discussion, not asserting a definite gospel commandment. I just fear that if I were called to do that I might talk myself into believing it was a false call.

All of this (obeying the law, etc.) is complicated as it relates to Paul in particular (and to some extent Jesus) by the fact that we have at least in theory a government of, by, and for the people, in which each of us bears responsibility of some sort for the nature of the law that we are supposed to obey, and we are ourselves to a degree the authorities we must respect. I certainly don't have it all hashed out clearly in my head. But deportation (not just of DACAmented young folks) really rubs me the wrong way.
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Re: DACA

Postby KeithE » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:57 pm

First meet any immediate physical, social, and emotional need (which is a big part of the “gospel” that Jesus demonstrated) and then tell them about Jesus’s life and ask that they follow Him by loving all by meeting their physical, social, emotional needs. That will speak louder than any tract. I do not ever recall Jesus saying “sign this creed, especially x, y, z”. Just believe that Jesus is the person to be emulated and then follow Him - most often by meeting the needs of others.

All means more than just those we come into contact with, but all of humanity (and by extension the earth since that is the habitat of all humanity). That takes social action.

The Great Commission:
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”


Jon - you certainly have gone to a nation and I assume you have baptized some. I also hope you are also meeting people’s needs. Please do not denounced those of us that are about meeting people’s needs (like Jesus did). Preaching the “gospel” - that Good News very often comes in the form of meeting physical, social and emotional needs.

Jesus eschewed the LAW (e.g. Sabbath rules) when people’s needs were more important. To focus on present day law is surely quite mistaken when people are in a bad position.

People in threat of being deported have many physical, social, and emotional needs that require our attention.

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Re: DACA

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:48 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
Haruo wrote:Following Jesus doesn't just require that we "share the gospel with them while they are being deported" but that we share their deportation. There's a suggestion. Pick up our cross and follow him.


Anything to get out of sharing the gospel it seems. Share their deportation?????


Jon, I love how you destroy straw men that no one else would support. Getting a hearing is harder than just walking up and handing out a Spanish tract. Oh, wait, I was supposed to leave it on top of the urinal in a rest area.


I think I see the problem. You think the handing out of tracts is the same thing as sharing the gospel. No wonder so many churches are messed up if my thinking of what sharing the gospel means is something no one else would support.

Sharing the gospel must tell the other person...

1 - who Jesus is
2 - what Jesus did
3 - why Jesus did it
4 - for whom Jesus dit it
5 - an opportunity to respond
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Re: DACA

Postby JE Pettibone » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:45 pm

Ed: Jon, I believe you over simplify sharing the gospel. Nowhere do I see in yoru simple outline, any effort on your part to let the person you you are sharing with, question why they should accept your word or why they should believe that you care about them.

And Dave I have known people who had effective Tract Ministries and they neither just walked up and handed folk a tract nor did they just leave them on urinals. BTW I have know women who have tract ministries and I have been told their are no urinals in the ladies restrooms. (of course, that may change)

The absolutely most callous use of tracts I have personally observed: is leaving a tract with a headline "Here is a tip for you" for a waitress" with no cash included.
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Re: DACA

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:03 am

JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: Jon, I believe you over simplify sharing the gospel. Nowhere do I see in yoru simple outline, any effort on your part to let the person you you are sharing with, question why they should accept your word or why they should believe that you care about them.

And Dave I have known people who had effective Tract Ministries and they neither just walked up and handed folk a tract nor did they just leave them on urinals. BTW I have know women who have tract ministries and I have been told their are no urinals in the ladies restrooms. (of course, that may change)

The absolutely most callous use of tracts I have personally observed: is leaving a tract with a headline "Here is a tip for you" for a waitress" with no cash included.


Ed, My list is my end of the conversation. The response... questions... further explanation differs from person and should always be a part of any sharing opportunity.
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Re: DACA

Postby JE Pettibone » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:11 am

Jon Estes wrote:
JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: Jon, I believe you over simplify sharing the gospel. Nowhere do I see in yoru simple outline, any effort on your part to let the person you you are sharing with, question why they should accept your word or why they should believe that you care about them.

And Dave I have known people who had effective Tract Ministries and they neither just walked up and handed folk a tract nor did they just leave them on urinals. BTW I have know women who have tract ministries and I have been told their are no urinals in the ladies restrooms. (of course, that may change)

The absolutely most callous use of tracts I have personally observed: is leaving a tract with a headline "Here is a tip for you" for a waitress" with no cash included.


Jon: Ed, My list is my end of the conversation. The response... questions... further explanation differs from person and should always be a part of any sharing opportunity.


Ed: Therefore, as I said it was over simplified. I am glad you recognize that there must be more to the sharing experience for it to be effective.
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Re: DACA

Postby Sandy » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:28 am

Every New Testament example of "sharing the gospel" that I can find involves meeting the needs of the people who were about to receive the message first. I think what Dave means by "earning the right" to share the gospel is simply that people need to be able to receive it before they will hear it. Even something as simple as feeding people who hadn't eaten all day was important to Jesus. The verbal sharing followed the need being met. In some cases, meeting the need was essential to the message, as in the case of the lame beggar Peter and John healed at the Temple. I'm not sure how effective the gospel message would be when it's not accompanied by at least a little bit of empathy, and ministering to a hurting spirit.

"I want to share the gospel of Christ with you. My political perspective won't allow me to change my mind about the fact that you are here illegally, and I'm opposed to this executive action that helps you out because the law is the law. But here's Jesus and oh, by the way, I'll pray for you." I think faith in Christ demands that we do much more than that.
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Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:09 pm

Haruo wrote:Perhaps. This is what Reverend Andy did at the church Mrs. H. and I attend here in Seattle. When the United States government packed his entire congregation into boxcars and sent them off to a concentration camp pursuant to an Executive Order, he and his family relocated to the vicinity of the camp so he could continue to minister to them.
Certainly a commendable and possible response to make.

Haruo wrote:Robert, I was throwing out a concept for discussion, not asserting a definite gospel commandment. I just fear that if I were called to do that I might talk myself into believing it was a false call.
We can always fear or worry about what we might or might not do, but have no way of really knowing until called upon to do so. I have no experiences like the one you refer to above, but have had the experience of having to discern what course to take, whether the "call" I was extended was the call of God or not. My experience only includes churches which called me and I declined, and included the internal turmoil of what to do. Some I can definitely say I wasn't sure about even after I made the decision. I have made plenty of mistakes that I can recite, but after nearly 40 years looking back over the calls I accepted or declined, I feel pretty comfortable with them now, even if I didn't at the time. Only in God's eternity will I know absolutely. I know this isn't exactly what you are talking about, but I guess I'm sort of saying with the songwriter, "I don't worry o'er the future" of calls that haven't come yet.
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Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:10 pm

Sandy wrote:Every New Testament example of "sharing the gospel" that I can find involves meeting the needs of the people who were about to receive the message first
Sandy, would you define or explain what you mean by "meeting the needs of the people"?

Thanks.
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Re: DACA

Postby Sandy » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:26 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
Sandy wrote:Every New Testament example of "sharing the gospel" that I can find involves meeting the needs of the people who were about to receive the message first
Sandy, would you define or explain what you mean by "meeting the needs of the people"?

Thanks.


A couple of times, when preaching to large crowds, the immediate need was that they hadn't eaten all day. So he fed them. In most of the New Testament narrative, he healed people. In a couple of cases, he raised someone from the dead. That made such an impression on the early church that they pooled their personal resources to take care of people's needs while they went about their evangelism ministry. That's what I mean.
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Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:09 pm

Sandy wrote:A couple of times, when preaching to large crowds, the immediate need was that they hadn't eaten all day. So he fed them. In most of the New Testament narrative, he healed people. In a couple of cases, he raised someone from the dead. That made such an impression on the early church that they pooled their personal resources to take care of people's needs while they went about their evangelism ministry. That's what I mean.
Thanks for the clarification. In the context of your and Dave's comments on page 2 Leland had referenced that Jesus started with meeting physical needs. I assumed that was what you meant as well.

There is no question that Jesus met the physical needs of many people who came to hear him teach, and even before they came to hear. The news that spread throughout the country about his miracles was one of the reasons so many came to see, whether for healing, out of curiosity, to listen to his sayings, and so on. It is clear that Jesus's miracles were acts of compassion, and that they were abundant. Statements like the one he makes recorded in Luke 4:25-27 suggests there is something going on in addition to compassion, and Mark 2:3-12 points to a bigger picture of miracles demonstrating his Messiah-ship, his power, his ability to forgive sins.

Jesus and the New Testament exhorts us to compassion, caring, feeding, clothing (e.g. James 2:15-16), but his command, his example and the examples of the New Testament do not limit us to preaching the gospel only when and after we are able to meet someone's needs. Jesus did not meet any obvious physical need of the woman at the well, but he did ask something of her (John 4). He met not immediate physical need of Paul, but struck him down on the road to Damascus (Acts 9). A miracle of tongues brought folks together on Pentecost, but Peter preached the gospel and did nothing to meet their physical needs (Acts 2). When Paul went to Antioch in Pisidia it doesn't appear he met any physical needs but rather just went to the synagogue and started teaching (Acts 13), as might be said similarly about his preaching on Mars Hill (Acts 17). This is not to say we shouldn't care, have compassion, feed, cloth -- but that we should not build a theology that withholds the gospel based on waiting to fulfill a physical need. That is not a consistent approach used throughout the New Testament.

Peter told the lame man at the gate called Beautiful, "Silver and gold have I none..." He actually had something much better, but the statement itself makes me question whether "they pooled their personal resources to take care of people's needs while they went about their evangelism ministry."
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Re: DACA

Postby Sandy » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:07 pm

Rvaughn wrote: This is not to say we shouldn't care, have compassion, feed, cloth -- but that we should not build a theology that withholds the gospel based on waiting to fulfill a physical need.


I don't think that's been suggested. Each situation is unique, as most of those recorded in scripture. In this particular situation, involving those whose deportation status has been deferred by executive order, but are now threatened with the loss of most of what they've achieved, telling them that what they need to quell their anxiety and face the circumstances ahead is Jesus might not go over very well coming from someone who is taking the attitude that "the law is the law" and who isn't empathetic or helpful. There's an immediate need there, and if there are those in that group who need to know Jesus, they might be more responsive to the message coming from someone who is at least compassionate enough to alleviate some of their anxiety and suffering, at the very least.

I think the theology we need to build is one that disconnects the church and its ministry from secular, partisan politics. The sharp decline in evangelistic activity in the United States, the drop in church attendance and membership, in the number of baptisms and conversions, particularly among conservative denominations and groups has occurred as the "religious right," mostly involving conservative Evangelical Christians, has ramped up its partisanship and political activity. I think the correlation is obvious. People have a hard time seeing the gospel of Christ among the hatred and vitriol spewed at those who don't hold the same political perspective. As James said, fresh water and salt water can't come from the same spring.
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Re: DACA

Postby KeithE » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:22 pm

I’m in agreement with Sandy and Haruo on this one.

When a person is in physical need, or feeling some sort of emotional trauma/disturbance or feel that they are subject to some social ill-treatment, they usually need these sores improved before they will feel the love of God. It is not that it is impossible to accept Jesus without other needs being met, but it is not the normal course of events. Thus as a tactical matter, helping meet human needs is a better approach to evangelism that trying to convince someone of some point of professed belief.

And once they feel that love of God’s people helping them, then the genuinely affected will in turn meet the needs of others. God’s greatest desire for His Creation is that we work together.

Public professions of faith without the fruits are not genuine, imo. They are often just to get some degree of group membership (a feel good sense of acceptance from others that act the same / believe the same - iow, perfect Pharisees who most of all love themselves).

Maybe some of you that have more time than I currently have (and are slaved to biblical proofs), might read about Jesus’s Encounters with People in Luke and John (or the other Gospels)

Encounters of Jesus in Luke
Encounters of Jesus in John

I have not proven it, but suspect mental ascent to say "Jesus is God” is not what Jesus was usually after. It was more a “Will you Follow Me” question.
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Re: DACA

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:55 pm

Sometimes meeting the need of a person is to hear their pain and sense of need. Not every situation demands food, money, or anything tangible. By "earning the right to share the gospel," I have not intended to say that we do something to gain the power to share, but our best gift is often the gift of presence. On a mission trip I shared, there was a lady next door to where we were working had just been informed that her father had died. I left in construction clothes to go sit with a stranger. Later, I had the opportunity to share Christ because I had simply sat with her in that time. In her eyes, I had earned the right to tell my story because she knew that I cared.
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Re: DACA

Postby JE Pettibone » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:18 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:Sometimes meeting the need of a person is to hear their pain and sense of need. Not every situation demands food, money, or anything tangible. By "earning the right to share the gospel," I have not intended to say that we do something to gain the power to share, but our best gift is often the gift of presence. On a mission trip I shared, there was a lady next door to where we were working had just been informed that her father had died. I left in construction clothes to go sit with a stranger. Later, I had the opportunity to share Christ because I had simply sat with her in that time. In her eyes, I had earned the right to tell my story because she knew that I cared.


Ed: Thank you Dave!
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Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:17 pm

Sandy wrote:I don't think that's been suggested. Each situation is unique, as most of those recorded in scripture.
Thanks for further clarification; The chorus of responses against Jon's suggestion that the first responsibility Christians have is to share Jesus had led me to believe otherwise. I agree with you that each situation is unique.
Sandy wrote:I think the theology we need to build is one that disconnects the church and its ministry from secular, partisan politics.
And yet, curiously, I notice that most every one of us who have been posting in September have posted in "Politics and Public Policy Issues" -- in 13 separate threads so far -- while none of us have posted in the "Baptist Faith and Practice Forum" in the month of September?
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Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:38 pm

KeithE wrote:When a person is in physical need, or feeling some sort of emotional trauma/disturbance or feel that they are subject to some social ill-treatment, they usually need these sores improved before they will feel the love of God. It is not that it is impossible to accept Jesus without other needs being met, but it is not the normal course of events. Thus as a tactical matter, helping meet human needs is a better approach to evangelism that trying to convince someone of some point of professed belief.
Yes, but as Sandy mentions, each situation is unique. Some feel the love of God before their "sores improve." Doing good "as a tactical matter" rather than doing good as an end in itself is not a way I would choose to express it.

KeithE wrote:Public professions of faith without the fruits are not genuine, imo. They are often just to get some degree of group membership (a feel good sense of acceptance from others that act the same / believe the same - iow, perfect Pharisees who most of all love themselves).

Maybe some of you that have more time than I currently have (and are slaved to biblical proofs), might read about Jesus’s Encounters with People in Luke and John (or the other Gospels)
I am quite ready to agree with you that there is a plenitude of public professions that are not genuine. On the other hand, I find it odd to denominate discussion of what Jesus and his disciples did as being "slaved to biblical proofs."
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Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:47 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:Sometimes meeting the need of a person is to hear their pain and sense of need. Not every situation demands food, money, or anything tangible. By "earning the right to share the gospel," I have not intended to say that we do something to gain the power to share, but our best gift is often the gift of presence. On a mission trip I shared, there was a lady next door to where we were working had just been informed that her father had died. I left in construction clothes to go sit with a stranger. Later, I had the opportunity to share Christ because I had simply sat with her in that time. In her eyes, I had earned the right to tell my story because she knew that I cared.
That helps, Dave. I'd refer to this more as God using circumstances to open a door of opportunity rather than "earning the right."

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Re: DACA

Postby KeithE » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:56 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
KeithE wrote:When a person is in physical need, or feeling some sort of emotional trauma/disturbance or feel that they are subject to some social ill-treatment, they usually need these sores improved before they will feel the love of God. It is not that it is impossible to accept Jesus without other needs being met, but it is not the normal course of events. Thus as a tactical matter, helping meet human needs is a better approach to evangelism that trying to convince someone of some point of professed belief.
Yes, but as Sandy mentions, each situation is unique. Some feel the love of God before their "sores improve." Doing good "as a tactical matter" rather than doing good as an end in itself is not a way I would choose to express it.

I find nothing wrong with expressly trying to be practical.

KeithE wrote:Public professions of faith without the fruits are not genuine, imo. They are often just to get some degree of group membership (a feel good sense of acceptance from others that act the same / believe the same - iow, perfect Pharisees who most of all love themselves).

Maybe some of you that have more time than I currently have (and are slaved to biblical proofs), might read about Jesus’s Encounters with People in Luke and John (or the other Gospels)
I am quite ready to agree with you that there is a plenitude of public professions that are not genuine. On the other hand, I find it odd to denominate discussion of what Jesus and his disciples did as being "slaved to biblical proofs.”

I understand where you are probably coming from - a higher view of the bible that I have. So I was saying that it is incumbent of those of you with that higher view who want to make a point about what evangelism is about (or any other religious subject) actually use the bible to make their points - I find it very often that conservatives are more married to a conventional set of doctrines and practices than what they can justify in a whole bible (or even a whole of Jesus’s teachings) review of the relevant texts.
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Re: DACA

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:37 am

KeithE wrote:
Rvaughn wrote:
KeithE wrote:When a person is in physical need, or feeling some sort of emotional trauma/disturbance or feel that they are subject to some social ill-treatment, they usually need these sores improved before they will feel the love of God. It is not that it is impossible to accept Jesus without other needs being met, but it is not the normal course of events. Thus as a tactical matter, helping meet human needs is a better approach to evangelism that trying to convince someone of some point of professed belief.
Yes, but as Sandy mentions, each situation is unique. Some feel the love of God before their "sores improve." Doing good "as a tactical matter" rather than doing good as an end in itself is not a way I would choose to express it.

I find nothing wrong with expressly trying to be practical.

KeithE wrote:Public professions of faith without the fruits are not genuine, imo. They are often just to get some degree of group membership (a feel good sense of acceptance from others that act the same / believe the same - iow, perfect Pharisees who most of all love themselves).

Maybe some of you that have more time than I currently have (and are slaved to biblical proofs), might read about Jesus’s Encounters with People in Luke and John (or the other Gospels)
I am quite ready to agree with you that there is a plenitude of public professions that are not genuine. On the other hand, I find it odd to denominate discussion of what Jesus and his disciples did as being "slaved to biblical proofs.”

I understand where you are probably coming from - a higher view of the bible that I have. So I was saying that it is incumbent of those of you with that higher view who want to make a point about what evangelism is about (or any other religious subject) actually use the bible to make their points - I find it very often that conservatives are more married to a conventional set of doctrines and practices than what they can justify in a whole bible (or even a whole of Jesus’s teachings) review of the relevant texts.

It is much more than being married to a specific set of doctrines. It is adherence to a specific Divine Word, given to us in scripture. That our higher view of scripture allows us to use scripture to back up our position, we make no apologies. That others use scripture like picking cherries, is a sad thing. All or nothing... or chaos ensues. It is more likely the next generation will have to deal with the chaos too many lay a foundation for in this generation.
That mere men have the audacity to believe they have the right to trump what God has already said opens Pandoras Box to an ever changing Theology.
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Re: DACA

Postby KeithE » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:15 am

KeithE said:
I understand where you are probably coming from - a higher view of the bible that I have. So I was saying that it is incumbent of those of you with that higher view who want to make a point about what evangelism is about (or any other religious subject) actually use the bible to make their points - I find it very often that conservatives are more married to a conventional set of doctrines and practices than what they can justify in a whole bible (or even a whole of Jesus’s teachings) review of the relevant texts.


Jon said:
It is much more than being married to a specific set of doctrines. It is adherence to a specific Divine Word, given to us in scripture. That our higher view of scripture allows us to use scripture to back up our position, we make no apologies. That others use scripture like picking cherries, is a sad thing. All or nothing... or chaos ensues. It is more likely the next generation will have to deal with the chaos too many lay a foundation for in this generation.
That mere men have the audacity to believe they have the right to trump what God has already said opens Pandoras Box to an ever changing Theology.


Well, I challenge you then to take the whole counsel of scripture to as you say “back up ‘our’ position” with respect to what you call “illegal immigrants” and what the bible calls being hospitable to “foreigners”, “strangers”, or "visitors to your land”. You might start here. Sure I know you can ‘cherry pick’ Romans 13 and assume that “being subject to the authorities" means accepting every changeable law that regime is temporarily employing, hardly a non-chaotic “foundation”. Nor is the bible some source of some never changing theology, ethics if you are honest with the texts.

Even the bible says "The Letter the Law kills but the Spirit gives life". It is the Spirit that Jesus said “leads to all truth”, not the OT or any future canon. He’d also said the whole law is summed up as “loving God and loving your neighbor”. The fruit of the Spirit is “love, joy,....” and in my view deporting those who do not want to be is not “love”. These passages of the bible are among the high points of the bible that the Spirit leads me to fully believe, more so than others. Jesus lived by love in example and advice, and He said “you have heard it said of old, but I say to you”, which was at least a glancing blow to the old testament ethical commands. What Jesus warned against (in fact was quite angry about) is the religious-law obsessed Pharisees.

Neither religious laws or civil authority laws are the answer. Spirit-empowered love of all is.

As to how to do evangelism (bringing people to a Christ-like life, fulfilling the Creator’s desire for better world) it is best performed by meeting people’s needs more so than convincing a person to join a group of “believers" with some set of practices and doctrines (that may - or may not- have some set of proof biblical texts to cherry pick - ignoring other texts and more importantly the Spirit of God).

Sorry if this rubs you wrong. But give it some thought if you would; but if you feel comfortable where you stand, then stand there; but try not to criticize those of us that have moved on - you might say backslidden. I have lived under a more fundamentalist-consevative world view (such as you appear to be living in) and found good and bad in it (love and Spirit-led acts frequently shows up in such environments, but the uglier side frequently comes up as well - e.g. advocating deporting people, sour feelings towards LBGTs, islamophobia).
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Re: DACA

Postby Rvaughn » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:48 am

KeithE wrote:I find nothing wrong with expressly trying to be practical.
Nor would I, though I see different connotations with "practical" and "tactical". Might not fit your meanings, but here are illustrations that may indicate how I would distinguish between practical and tactical.

Witness Bee is going over to Joe's house to share the gospel. Joe doesn't need anything in particular but Bee thinks he needs to hear the gospel. When Bee gets there he finds Joe has fallen and is bleeding profusely. He calls 911 and does what he can to stop the bleeding. He will hope to have a later opportunity to share the gospel. That seems practical.

Witness Cee is going over to Joe's house to share the gospel. Joe doesn't need anything in particular but Cee knows he loves pecan pie so he brings one to try to butter him up. When Cee gets there he finds Joe has fallen and is bleeding profusely. He knows that if he calls 911 and does what he can to stop the bleeding, he will have an edge by earning the right to share the gospel with Joe. He is glad to have this edge when he will share the gospel. That seems tactical.

Witness Dee is going over to Joe's house to share the gospel. Joe doesn't need anything in particular but Dee thinks he needs to hear the gospel. When Dee gets there he finds Joe has fallen and is bleeding profusely. He sees a wonderful opportunity to lead Joe to accept Christ. He tells him he may be dying and is going to hell, leads him through the Roman Road and has him repeat the sinner's prayer. If Joe hasn't bled to death by the time this is over, Dee will call 911 and try to do what he can to stop the bleeding -- because he needs to get him baptized and counted on the church roll. That seems crazy.

(Obviously exaggerated a bit to make a point.)

KeithE wrote:I understand where you are probably coming from - a higher view of the bible that I have. So I was saying that it is incumbent of those of you with that higher view who want to make a point about what evangelism is about (or any other religious subject) actually use the bible to make their points - I find it very often that conservatives are more married to a conventional set of doctrines and practices than what they can justify in a whole bible (or even a whole of Jesus’s teachings) review of the relevant texts.
Neither conservatives nor liberals are exempt from cherry picking the Bible to make their points. Apparently the conservatives didn't get to the patent office in time to secure the patent! :wink:
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Re: DACA

Postby KeithE » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:09 pm

KeithE wrote:I find nothing wrong with expressly trying to be practical.

Rvaughn wrote:Nor would I, though I see different connotations with "practical" and "tactical". Might not fit your meanings, but here are illustrations that may indicate how I would distinguish between practical and tactical.

Witness Bee is going over to Joe's house to share the gospel. Joe doesn't need anything in particular but Bee thinks he needs to hear the gospel. When Bee gets there he finds Joe has fallen and is bleeding profusely. He calls 911 and does what he can to stop the bleeding. He will hope to have a later opportunity to share the gospel. That seems practical.

Witness Cee is going over to Joe's house to share the gospel. Joe doesn't need anything in particular but Cee knows he loves pecan pie so he brings one to try to butter him up. When Cee gets there he finds Joe has fallen and is bleeding profusely. He knows that if he calls 911 and does what he can to stop the bleeding, he will have an edge by earning the right to share the gospel with Joe. He is glad to have this edge when he will share the gospel. That seems tactical.

Witness Dee is going over to Joe's house to share the gospel. Joe doesn't need anything in particular but Dee thinks he needs to hear the gospel. When Dee gets there he finds Joe has fallen and is bleeding profusely. He sees a wonderful opportunity to lead Joe to accept Christ. He tells him he may be dying and is going to hell, leads him through the Roman Road and has him repeat the sinner's prayer. If Joe hasn't bled to death by the time this is over, Dee will call 911 and try to do what he can to stop the bleeding -- because he needs to get him baptized and counted on the church roll. That seems crazy.

(Obviously exaggerated a bit to make a point.)


I will define a Witness Aaa who is looking to meet human need to even those he is not planning to "share the gospel” with. I approve of that wholeheartedly and God smiles.

I'm also wholeheartedly with Witness Bee (although the content of the “gospel” may be quite different from conservative evangelists have in mind).

The kind of superficial buttering up as Witness Cee employs with pecan pie is not what I mean being “tactical”, unless that pecan pie is really needed nourishment. I’d call that “disingenuous" but can be effective in reeling in people to a church (mega churches often employ this). And some of those reeled in just may end up in genuine relationships with God.

Witness Dee is really involved in "churchology” not “Christianity”.

KeithE wrote:I understand where you are probably coming from - a higher view of the bible that I have. So I was saying that it is incumbent of those of you with that higher view who want to make a point about what evangelism is about (or any other religious subject) actually use the bible to make their points - I find it very often that conservatives are more married to a conventional set of doctrines and practices than what they can justify in a whole bible (or even a whole of Jesus’s teachings) review of the relevant texts.


Rvaughn wrote:Neither conservatives nor liberals are exempt from cherry picking the Bible to make their points. Apparently the conservatives didn't get to the patent office in time to secure the patent! :wink:


The difference is that conservatives have the burden of claiming all cherries are good (some who claim plenary inspiration even claim they are equally good). Liberals (in terms of beliefs about the nature of the bible) have the liberty to say some cherries are good and some are sour - and can with the Spirit’s and Reason’s aid, distinguish between the two (with degrees of applicability in various situations - yes I mean situational ethics and situational theologies). We all do that naturally and no one is exempt as you point out.
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