Antifa

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Re: Antifa

Postby Jim » Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:33 pm

KeithE wrote:
Haruo wrote:Well put, Jim. I don't agree with all of it, but there is something to some of it, and you didn't engage in as much offensive wit as usual, so for me at least it's pretty easy to read. Not a nationalist, so I don't join you on America First; not a fan of borders; but there's still stuff I can at least halfway agree with in there.

Agree, it was an improvement for Jim. And like you, Haruo, I’m not a America First person. "Red and yellow, black and white they are equal in His sight."

Well, gee, such a relief! If you're not careful, you might even think I know the way to the bathroom, and that takes REAL brain-power. I said nothing about ethnic groups, just that I put this nation's existence above that of all others, and I suspect the governments of most nations (maybe not China and Russia) feel the same way about the U.S. (the great protector) for obvious reasons.

In this regard, I doubt Trump's new (if it is new at all) Afghanistan strategy will work any better than what has been tried in the past. I would favor a humanitarian approach (give that money we would spend on armed deployment to deploying humanitarian aid and encourage others {e.g Europe} to give aid as well). Then hope that antipathy against the world which fuels the urge to terrorize will subside. IOW try the Jesus way (turn the other cheek, offer your cloak) and the Paul way (feed them, offer drink).

Matt 5:39-40
But I tell you not to resist an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also; if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well;


Oh, spare me. Remember Jesus fashioning a whip and then lashing the thieving thugs out of the temple, even though they had slapped Jesus (God) on his spiritual cheek. Or, why did Jesus tell the disciples to sell their TUNICS or their CLOAKS in order to buy swords? Probably not to slice the cheese. And then there were Ananias and Sapphira--just for lying...cold-blooded, would you say? Okay, no blood but the effect (GASP) like Jezebel and the dogs! Do you suppose Jesus might have changed his mind about some things in the NT era just as God did in the OT era? Naw, mod-lib thinking has Christ as a gentle warm-fuzzy, hugs-all-around nice guy, who wouldn't hurt a flea...but tell that to the money-grubbers thrown out on the street with their birds and sheep and whatever cash they grasped, not to mention John the Revelator, who described gory bloodlettings yet to come. Mod-libs would have Jesus as the penultimate wimp. Disgusting!

Romans 12:20
On the contrary, “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink. For in so doing, you will heap burning coals on his head.”


Did you catch the motivation and the intended result? I didn't think so.
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Re: Antifa

Postby William Thornton » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:20 am

Here's your antifa/brownshirts:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... 795ddd4569

Their faces hidden behind black bandannas and hoodies, about a 100 anarchists and antifa — “anti-fascist” — barreled into a protest Sunday afternoon in Berkeley’s Martin Luther King Jr. Civic Center Park.

Jumping over plastic and concrete barriers, the group melted into a larger crowd of around 2,000 that had marched peacefully throughout the sunny afternoon for a “Rally Against Hate” gathering.

Shortly after, violence began to flare. A pepper-spray wielding Trump supporter was smacked to the ground with homemade shields. Another was attacked by five black-clad antifas, each windmilling kicks and punches into a man desperately trying to protect himself. A conservative group leader retreated for safety behind a line of riot police as marchers chucked water bottles, shot off pepper spray and screamed “fascist go home!”
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Re: Antifa

Postby Sandy » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:05 am

William Thornton wrote:Here's your antifa/brownshirts:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... 795ddd4569

Their faces hidden behind black bandannas and hoodies, about a 100 anarchists and antifa — “anti-fascist” — barreled into a protest Sunday afternoon in Berkeley’s Martin Luther King Jr. Civic Center Park.

Jumping over plastic and concrete barriers, the group melted into a larger crowd of around 2,000 that had marched peacefully throughout the sunny afternoon for a “Rally Against Hate” gathering.

Shortly after, violence began to flare. A pepper-spray wielding Trump supporter was smacked to the ground with homemade shields. Another was attacked by five black-clad antifas, each windmilling kicks and punches into a man desperately trying to protect himself. A conservative group leader retreated for safety behind a line of riot police as marchers chucked water bottles, shot off pepper spray and screamed “fascist go home!”


No connection to any organized group, as reported. Conservatives are constantly whining that their organizations and movements, and the extremist right wing media, can't be blamed for provoking violent groups that they claim aren't part of their organization, and don't represent them. Brownshirts were an organized group of political disruptors under the control of a specific assigned leader of the Nazi movement. These guys were not affiliated or connected to anyone. And as the factual references posted here note (most notably excluding everything Jim posts) this is antifa, small a, group, one of many. It's a reactionary response to the rise of white supremacist, white nationalist influence that is currently present in the swamp that Trump brought into Washington with him. It'll go away when the inciteful rhetoric and vilolence of the extremist right stops.

If their approach is violence, it won't have much success. Here are some hard facts. This is not a "white" Caucasian nation descended from common ancestors that shares a common cultural background. There may have been some tendency to create an American nation that was simply white Europe on fresh soil within those who founded the country, but that never really developed. The colonial background was too diverse, and the futuristic idealism that was written into the foundational declarations as the country was born and as it developed were too idealistic to ever be limited to any sort of idea of "white Christian America." There are some people, maybe a few here in this little group, who are just going to have to come to the realization that all of the ethnic, racial, religious and cultural groups who have made America home, largely because they were welcome no where else, are part of the fabric of who we are, and are entitled to equal participation in the government, economy and society. They are also entitled to do so without having to "assimilate" as far as that term meaning they must become like good white people. The alt-right, white supremacist, extremist political conservative push to "Make America Great Again," or "take our country back" operates on the false premises that it went somewhere it didn't go. The election of an African American President is just the beginning. Going back is not making progress, and it is certainly not consistent with a genuinely "Biblical worldview," in which there is an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God who created the diverse humanity that exists in this country and in the world, and loves all of them equally.
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Re: Antifa

Postby William Thornton » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:54 pm

I take it that you somewhere, somehow condemn the antifa violence even though it is directed at Trump supporters? I may have missed that.
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Re: Antifa

Postby Sandy » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:32 pm

William Thornton wrote:I take it that you somewhere, somehow condemn the antifa violence even though it is directed at Trump supporters? I may have missed that.

I condemn any violence. It serves no purpose, and from a personal perspective, goes against any principle of Christian faith. It doesn't matter who it is directed against. It would be especially ineffective against Trump supporters, since many of them openly advocate for violence as a means of getting their way.

I haven't seen any condemnation or criticism from you of the alt-right, white supremacy, neo-nazis, and the violence which is their preferred way of making their point. You've defended them by hiding them behind an accusation against a small, isolated antifascist group.
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Re: Antifa

Postby William Thornton » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:59 pm

Sandy wrote:
William Thornton wrote:I take it that you somewhere, somehow condemn the antifa violence even though it is directed at Trump supporters? I may have missed that.

I condemn any violence. It serves no purpose, and from a personal perspective, goes against any principle of Christian faith. It doesn't matter who it is directed against. It would be especially ineffective against Trump supporters, since many of them openly advocate for violence as a means of getting their way.

I haven't seen any condemnation or criticism from you of the alt-right, white supremacy, neo-nazis, and the violence which is their preferred way of making their point. You've defended them by hiding them behind an accusation against a small, isolated antifascist group.


No. Dave started this topic. Your comment is nonsense.
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Re: Antifa

Postby Sandy » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:40 pm

So, William, you're not going to condemn white supremacy or the violence it breeds because Dave started this topic?

Rhetorical question. I think you already answered it.
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Re: Antifa

Postby William Thornton » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:31 am

Sandy wrote:So, William, you're not going to condemn white supremacy or the violence it breeds because Dave started this topic?

Rhetorical question. I think you already answered it.


The problem is your unfair and unkind presumption about my view of a matter I did not introduce. I'm disappointed in you. I get that we don't share the same politics and that you dislike Trump, whom I did not vote for and which colors all of these discussions but I hate to see you go down this road.

The antifa business actually gives cover for the white supremacist miscreants by creating what may be seen as an equivalence. Better if the left took the route of MLK, Jr.
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Re: Antifa

Postby Haruo » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:48 am

Until proven otherwise, I assume that some people on all sides of every issue advocate violence as a means of getting their way. And I assume that most people on all sides of every issue do not advocate violence as a means of getting their way. So until proven otherwise, I will assume that the statement that "many" antifascists or "many" Trump supporters advocate it is an exaggeration. I'm talking about serious advocacy and support, not spontaneous off-the-cuff outbursts like half of the President's better-publicized tweets or that Professor Shortey in Florida or whatever. On the other hand, there are situations where I think otherwise has been proven, as for example in wartime, when a very large percentage of the population is prone to advocate violence against "the enemy" (and to ignore the probability that a large number of people who are not "the enemy" will be killed in the process).
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Re: Antifa

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:37 pm

William Thornton wrote:Here's your antifa/brownshirts:


I'm not here to defend antifa, by why "brownshirts?" Isn't that Nazi terminology? Doesn't that just mix up the two groups? or is that your intention??
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Re: Antifa

Postby William Thornton » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:25 pm

I purposefully and deliberately used the Nazi SA, Brownshirts, relative to the antifa because there are striking similarities. The SA was used to disrupt opposing party events and stifle 'unacceptable' speech. Now we are getting a stream of stories on the antifa along those lines, some stories are from liberals and lib outlets.

Sandy made the point that the antifa is not organized like the SA. True in that the level of organization and sponsorship is not what it was in Germany. The antifa is highly organized on the scale of the event they plan to disrupt.

Looks to me like the antifa is a colossal strategic mistake for the left, not to mention that it is unlawful and criminal.
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Re: Antifa

Postby Sandy » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:58 am

Sandy wrote:Using the term "antifa" with a small "a" and a "the" in front of it is a complete misinterpretation and mischaracterization, as much as is associating it with the Nazi movement. "Antifascism" characterizes dozens of different organized groups, as well as a general movement that is really not organized in any way, a characteristic that is consistent with the whole antifascist philosophy. They don't bear any resemblance to Nazi structures or organization because their core philosophy of anti-fascism is diametrically opposed to National Socialism, which was both a fascist and traditional conservative movement. This stuff that William has put up here has extremist right wing media fantasy written all over it. Limbaugh was spouting similar nonsense a week or so ago, and it's just an image they want to create in order to divert attention away from the alt-right, white supremacist, neo-nazi groups that have become emboldened by their open acceptance from Trump, and are genuinely a colossal strategic mistake for conservatives who are either embracing them, or, like William, tacitly approving by contributing to the diversion.
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Re: Antifa

Postby Jim » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:19 am

Poor Nancy Pelosi (first grandmother to be Speaker) was forced to say something about the “progressives” (party of Sanders/Clinton) the other day because AntiFa is the acknowledged “enforcer” of the progressives in abridging the right of free speech to people they don't like. These goons followed the Trump campaign relentlessly for months with their tactics of beating up on unsuspecting rally-attendees and disrupting speeches, only to see Hillary (first grandmother to run for the top enchilada) turned down by actual thinkers. In the media, they are represented by the coastal newspapers and the wing-nuts at ABC (little George), NBC (Brian Williams), and CBS (Dan Rather) and their offshoots including “experts” like Al Sharpton. The consensus of these groups regarding the prexy's visit to the flood was that Trump didn't show empathy and his wife wore the wrong type of shoes. AntiFa is the moral (or immoral) equivalent of the KKK/Black Panthers/NAACP currently acting out the collective progressive agenda having as its main objective driving Trump out of office, as if they could. The mayor of Charlottesville is on the record as saying Police Chief Al Thomas, first black police chief in the city's history and hired last year, told him to just “stay out of my way.” This allowed the carnage as the police were told to stand down while the beatings took place. The chief may be on his way out, justifiably, but the mayor was a coward.
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Re: Antifa

Postby William Thornton » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:50 am

Sandy wrote:
Sandy wrote:Using the term "antifa" with a small "a" and a "the" in front of it is a complete misinterpretation and mischaracterization, as much as is associating it with the Nazi movement. "Antifascism" characterizes dozens of different organized groups, as well as a general movement that is really not organized in any way, a characteristic that is consistent with the whole antifascist philosophy. They don't bear any resemblance to Nazi structures or organization because their core philosophy of anti-fascism is diametrically opposed to National Socialism, which was both a fascist and traditional conservative movement. This stuff that William has put up here has extremist right wing media fantasy written all over it. Limbaugh was spouting similar nonsense a week or so ago, and it's just an image they want to create in order to divert attention away from the alt-right, white supremacist, neo-nazi groups that have become emboldened by their open acceptance from Trump, and are genuinely a colossal strategic mistake for conservatives who are either embracing them, or, like William, tacitly approving by contributing to the diversion.


Seems to be an endless supply of steaming bovine excrement available to my old friend. You know, there's a legitimate treatment for anti-Trump derangement syndrome which provides this supply.

I'll pass on stringing this along unless something new comes up. I look for the brownshirt leftists to smarten up or double down. It will be news either way.

[I messed up sandy's post above which included quotes from me...the quotes from me were cut but his stuff is all there...sorry]
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Re: Antifa

Postby Dave Roberts » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:12 am

Violence is wrong from all the groups. I was reading one of the Alt-Right complainers who said that counter-protesters attacked him after he sprayed them with pepper spray. Who in this case started the attack?
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Re: Antifa

Postby William Thornton » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:02 am

Dave Roberts wrote:Violence is wrong from all the groups. I was reading one of the Alt-Right complainers who said that counter-protesters attacked him after he sprayed them with pepper spray. Who in this case started the attack?


That wasn't the case with all the incidents. I'm sure you have read others as well.

But I think we all agree that violence is wrong from all groups.
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Re: Antifa

Postby Sandy » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:35 am

William Thornton wrote:But I think we all agree that violence is wrong from all groups.


That's a nice, generic comment, and still hides behind the fact that the alt-right, white supremacist, neo-nazi Trumpsters are inherently violent, and use violence to push their agenda, but I guess that is as close as we are going to get to a condemnation of their ilk from you.
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Re: Antifa

Postby William Thornton » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:29 pm

TDR...take a pill bro. She lost. Get over it.
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Re: Antifa

Postby Sandy » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:08 pm

William Thornton wrote:TDR...take a pill bro. She lost. Get over it.


Has nothing to do with that. Something else to use for deflection. I bet we never get an admission that the alt-right is wrong, or that they specifically are to blame for the violence they cause.
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Re: Antifa

Postby KeithE » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:39 pm

William Thornton wrote:TDR...take a pill bro. She lost. Get over it.

I find these sorts of putoffs offensive and would ask that you stop that.
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Re: Antifa

Postby Jim » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:02 pm

Definition of white supremacy (Merriam-Webster 11th Edition): a doctrine based on a belief in the inherent superiority of the white race over other races and the correlative necessity for the subordination of nonwhites to whites in all relationships.

Definition of black supremacy (Wikipedia): Black supremacy or black supremacism is a racial supremacist belief that black people are superior to people of other races. The term has been used by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), an American legal advocacy organization, to describe several fringe religious groups in the United States.

Somewhere between these extremes is where we all live, whether or not we admit it. There's a streak of racism in all of us whether or not we admit it. Black supremacists see what they conceive of as a battle between the vast majority (whites) and themselves, no matter how hard both groups try to reach common ground, usually by a lot of talk and little else except for governmental mandates (especially in the 50s-60s), which have helped a few blacks but not the majority. The differences are inherently in place and harmony is an impossibility. All the greeting-eating-meetings will not change inborn differences.

White supremacists see the entitlement programs of the above as encroaching upon their own rights, sometimes justifiably, but it's the traditional/cultural atrocities that set them off. For instance, the notion that men can marry each other legally represents an anomaly to human nature, not to mention the religious aspect, that to white supremacists (me, too) is unthinkable and connotes a filth that condemns the society. Inherently, most people, white or black, see this as proof that the nation is spiraling downward, as is the case in Europe. So, the objective is simply for both groups to understand their differences (diversity-worship a damnable approach by definition) and adopt friendship/good-will as a goal but mutual tolerance as vital.
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Re: Antifa

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:28 pm

Sandy wrote:
That's a nice, generic comment, and still hides behind the fact that the alt-right, white supremacist, neo-nazi Trumpsters are inherently violent, and use violence to push their agenda......


Agreed Sandy. While I oppose any violence used by ANTIFA, when they have been violent it has been violence against people whose goal is racial cleansing and hate against anyone who is different. What they are doing is more like vigilante justice than being compatible to the Nazis and the KKK.
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Re: Antifa

Postby William Thornton » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:43 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
Sandy wrote:
That's a nice, generic comment, and still hides behind the fact that the alt-right, white supremacist, neo-nazi Trumpsters are inherently violent, and use violence to push their agenda......


Agreed Sandy. While I oppose any violence used by ANTIFA, when they have been violent it has been violence against people whose goal is racial cleansing and hate against anyone who is different. What they are doing is more like vigilante justice than being compatible to the Nazis and the KKK.


Right. Brownshirts. They decide what speech is acceptable. Surely you see this.
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Re: Antifa

Postby William Thornton » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:47 pm

KeithE wrote:
William Thornton wrote:TDR...take a pill bro. She lost. Get over it.

I find these sorts of putoffs offensive and would ask that you stop that.


Sorry, and alas...selective ire.
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Re: Antifa

Postby William Thornton » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:18 pm

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