Antifa

The place to discuss politics and policy issues that are not directly related to matters of faith.

Moderator: KeithE

Antifa

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:51 am

"Antifa"--it's a word I had never heard before Charlottesville. Suddenly those defending white supremacists are blaming everything on a group called "antifa." As I looked for definitions, what I find is "radical antifascists." I guess I'm out of touch, but it seems those who defend a strong military and who want the "rule of law" in the country would be seeking to mold this group because many of us are the descendants of the most radical anti-fascists in history--US military people who fought Hitler and Mussolini's disciples in the Second World War. I realize that some of these folks got into violent actions in recent demonstrations, but I'm having real trouble finding any substantial or scholarly treatments of this, only right wing attacks from white supremacists and Trump defenders. Anyone know any credible sources that actually have studied or reported on this movement?
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6963
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Antifa

Postby William Thornton » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:05 pm

The new Brownshirts. Ironic.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11807
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Antifa

Postby Haruo » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:27 pm

Yeah, my impression is that there are indeed a group (or groups; not sure if they're formally linked) of opponents of Trump and the alt-right who are prone to violence. Not that "slip or fall" into it, but that go to alt-right or pro-Trump demonstrations with the hope and intent of doing some damage to the alt-right or pro-Trump folks. They need to be opposed every bit as seriously as their counterparts at the KKK/Nazi end of the spectrum.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11684
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Antifa

Postby Haruo » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:29 pm

Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11684
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Antifa

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:39 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:"Antifa"--it's a word I had never heard before Charlottesville.
Like you, Dave, I had not heard of "antifa" before the Charlottesville incidents. Likewise, I had not heard of "alt-right" before Trump was elected.
Dave Roberts wrote:I realize that some of these folks got into violent actions in recent demonstrations, but I'm having real trouble finding any substantial or scholarly treatments of this, only right wing attacks from white supremacists and Trump defenders. Anyone know any credible sources that actually have studied or reported on this movement?
I don't know about that, but there seems to be credible news reports that at least some of this body is bent on violence.
Haruo wrote:Yeah, my impression is that there are indeed a group (or groups; not sure if they're formally linked) of opponents of Trump and the alt-right who are prone to violence. Not that "slip or fall" into it, but that go to alt-right or pro-Trump demonstrations with the hope and intent of doing some damage to the alt-right or pro-Trump folks. They need to be opposed every bit as seriously as their counterparts at the KKK/Nazi end of the spectrum.
Haruo, my impression is the same, that they don't "slip or fall" into violence, but have that intent. Folks wearing masks (other than the Lone Ranger, I suppose :wink: ) using puts me in a negative view of what such folks are up to.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 610
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Antifa

Postby Haruo » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:43 pm

And Zorro, though it's probably a sign that he was undocumented...
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11684
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Antifa

Postby Haruo » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:44 pm

Oh dear, were Robin and Batman Mexicans??
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11684
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Antifa

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:45 pm

I'm seeing a new reference today in some FB comments: "antifa communists." Thanks for the info. I'm having trouble putting my head around some of these groups. On the surface, at least, it appears the antifa should be the opponents of the Neo-Nazis, but it doesn't seem to be working that way.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6963
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Antifa

Postby Sandy » Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:08 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:"Antifa"--it's a word I had never heard before Charlottesville. Suddenly those defending white supremacists are blaming everything on a group called "antifa." As I looked for definitions, what I find is "radical antifascists." I guess I'm out of touch, but it seems those who defend a strong military and who want the "rule of law" in the country would be seeking to mold this group because many of us are the descendants of the most radical anti-fascists in history--US military people who fought Hitler and Mussolini's disciples in the Second World War. I realize that some of these folks got into violent actions in recent demonstrations, but I'm having real trouble finding any substantial or scholarly treatments of this, only right wing attacks from white supremacists and Trump defenders. Anyone know any credible sources that actually have studied or reported on this movement?


https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... _source=eb

http://www.salon.com/2017/07/20/antifa- ... e-present/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mad ... c7b3b070d7

The Washington Post wrote:hough antifa are often treated as a new force in American politics since the rise of Trump, the anti-fascist tradition stretches back a century. The first antifascists fought Benito Mussolini’s Blackshirts in the Italian countryside, exchanged fire with Adolf Hitler’s Brownshirts in the taverns and alleyways of Munich and defended Madrid from Francisco Franco’s insurgent nationalist army. Beyond Europe, anti-fascism became a model of resistance for the Chinese against Japanese imperialism during World War II and resistance to Latin American dictatorships.


Clearly they are not Brownshirts. Brownshirts would be equal to the Alt-right marchers with torches in Charlottesville. Some references use the term "Communist" as a description of some participants, though communism as it is known in the world today is applied by governments who are right wing, conservative and reactionary, not liberal or to the left.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8178
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Antifa

Postby William Thornton » Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:28 pm

No it is not clear. The spin is that antifa fights undesirables. The truth is that they disrupt legally protected speech, violently. That was the role the brownshirts filled. Smashing stores? Kristallnacht. How far is it from the 1930s when violent groups decide who gets to exercise free speech and who does not.

We're not there yet but the outlines are present.Bears watching. At the least it gives the racist supremacists something to deflect attention.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11807
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Antifa

Postby Sandy » Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:53 pm

William Thornton wrote:No it is not clear. The spin is that antifa fights undesirables. The truth is that they disrupt legally protected speech, violently. That was the role the brownshirts filled. Smashing stores? Kristallnacht. How far is it from the 1930s when violent groups decide who gets to exercise free speech and who does not.

We're not there yet but the outlines are present.Bears watching. At the least it gives the racist supremacists something to deflect attention.


Trying to turn things around and applying historic labels to a different ideology is an extremist right wing media tactic. You're making an assertion of truth without any evidence to support your statement, and you obviously didn't read anything that was posted, written by reporters who went and did the research, and substantiated their facts. You're statement is just an assertion.

What's been happening as Antifa gets more attention than previously is that the right justifies its violent behavior by claiming that the left instigated it, or at least participated in it with the "both sides are equally guilty" lie attached, even when the physical evidence shows otherwise. What you got from the right was a fight started by baseball-bat wielding thugs, and a murder by a car deliberately rammed into people who were protesting the right wing violence. Then you got a "she deserved it, and we'll keep on killing" declaration from the leader of the main group involved. Those are your brownshirts, William. If you really think the alt-right and white supremacy are fine, don't hide behind some inflated allegations against a small, fringe group like Antifa, just come out and say you're on board with them.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8178
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Antifa

Postby William Thornton » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:19 pm

No. Antifa is credited with store smashing and assorted thuggery, intimidation. The seed bed is the same. Labels are different. Criminal gangs.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11807
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Antifa

Postby Haruo » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:29 pm

The problem is the term "Antifa(scist)" and the way we use terms. There are antifascists who are in fact dedicated to shutting the faces of those who do not measure up to whatever their criterion of acceptability is, and who while they are at it break windows in shops that have no more connection with fascism than your typical pizza joint has with Mussolini. These folks are very similar in intent and behavior to the historic Fascist brownshirts, and also very similar to some on the other end of the supposed "political spectrum" that they target. If you paint with a broad enough brush, you make them out to be closely allied to Obama and Bernie. In other words, there are brushes that are so broad they are meaningless, and when applied they produce lies and obfuscations, not paintings.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11684
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Antifa

Postby Sandy » Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:12 pm

William Thornton wrote:No. Antifa is credited with store smashing and assorted thuggery, intimidation. The seed bed is the same. Labels are different. Criminal gangs.


Right wing media sources credit Antifa with store smashing and assorted thuggery, intimidation. I haven't seen any reliable sources, just allegations. It's a way to divert attention from the real thugs and intimidation by the alt right white supremacists, and it keeps getting brought up only by those who don't seem to want to go so far as to actually condemn the violence of the alt right.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8178
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Antifa

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:26 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:I'm seeing a new reference today in some FB comments: "antifa communists." Thanks for the info. I'm having trouble putting my head around some of these groups. On the surface, at least, it appears the antifa should be the opponents of the Neo-Nazis, but it doesn't seem to be working that way.


The best I can tell "antifa" isn't an organized single group. So some of them are radicals who tend towards violence and others are just folks who oppose fascism with a fairly "in your face" mentality. So it is kind of hard to tell who is who since there is no single "antifa" group.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5568
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Antifa

Postby Haruo » Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:40 pm

Sandy wrote:
William Thornton wrote:No. Antifa is credited with store smashing and assorted thuggery, intimidation. The seed bed is the same. Labels are different. Criminal gangs.


Right wing media sources credit Antifa with store smashing and assorted thuggery, intimidation. I haven't seen any reliable sources, just allegations. It's a way to divert attention from the real thugs and intimidation by the alt right white supremacists, and it keeps getting brought up only by those who don't seem to want to go so far as to actually condemn the violence of the alt right.

It happens. I'm no right-wing dupe. I've seen the results, not only recently but back in the WTO riots.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11684
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Antifa

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:22 pm

Haruo wrote:And Zorro, though it's probably a sign that he was undocumented...
I'm definitely on board with Zorro and his mask. Batman and Robin? Not so sure. :D
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 610
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Antifa

Postby Sandy » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:03 am

Haruo wrote:
Sandy wrote:
William Thornton wrote:No. Antifa is credited with store smashing and assorted thuggery, intimidation. The seed bed is the same. Labels are different. Criminal gangs.


Right wing media sources credit Antifa with store smashing and assorted thuggery, intimidation. I haven't seen any reliable sources, just allegations. It's a way to divert attention from the real thugs and intimidation by the alt right white supremacists, and it keeps getting brought up only by those who don't seem to want to go so far as to actually condemn the violence of the alt right.

It happens. I'm no right-wing dupe. I've seen the results, not only recently but back in the WTO riots.


There are always people willing to use violence as a means to advance a cause, most likely because it does have an impact. From the articles I read, a couple of which I posted, this group seems to be more defensive than offensive, and schedules their appearances to show up at white supremacist, alt-right gatherings and rallies. I don't see anything wrong with counter-protests, but violence only breeds violence, and once a group is gathered, and emotions run high, it doesn't take much to set things off, and the "leaders" don't always have the means to stop it.

The problem I have with the right wing media sources, and right wingers, bringing this up now is that they are using it as justification for what the alt-right does, and as a smokescreen to divert attention from the real issue, or to deflect blame for incidents to avoid criticizing the white supremacists and neo-nazis and their allies for what is an obviously anti-social, anti-Christian agenda and for instigating violence. It's like seeing two elementary kids in the principal's office, dirty from fighting, and the kid who threw the first punch saying, "Yes, I hit him, but he started it because he looked at me funny." It is obfuscation put up to avoid facing the question of the Biblical morality of the alt-right, white supremacists and their "worldview."
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8178
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Antifa

Postby Rvaughn » Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:53 pm

I've been looking to see if there is some kind of common "antifa" agenda and/or manifesto. So far I have not found anything. I did find It's Going Down, which purports to be an antifa website. They apparently publish and promote.
https://itsgoingdown.org/about/

It’s Going Down is a digital community center from anarchist, anti-fascist, autonomous anti-capitalist and anti-colonial movements. Our mission is to provide a resilient platform to publicize and promote revolutionary theory and action.


We do not advocate or promote violence or non-violence. Movements for liberation decide for themselves on the best strategy to get and stay free is. We respect local organizing efforts and their understanding of the situation they are faced with. We act in the spirit of autonomy and solidarity.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 610
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Antifa

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:56 am

Rvaughn wrote:I've been looking to see if there is some kind of common "antifa" agenda and/or manifesto. So far I have not found anything. I did find It's Going Down, which purports to be an antifa website. They apparently publish and promote.
https://itsgoingdown.org/about/

It’s Going Down is a digital community center from anarchist, anti-fascist, autonomous anti-capitalist and anti-colonial movements. Our mission is to provide a resilient platform to publicize and promote revolutionary theory and action.


We do not advocate or promote violence or non-violence. Movements for liberation decide for themselves on the best strategy to get and stay free is. We respect local organizing efforts and their understanding of the situation they are faced with. We act in the spirit of autonomy and solidarity.


Thanks so much for the research. That seems to match what I am finding. It doesn't seem to be so much an organized movement as a collection of various groups opposed to white supremacists and robber baron capitalists, and a number of other ideologies. It's a little like trying to put your finger down in a drop of mercury--whatever you say about them may or may not be true and may or may not be accurate for the particular manifestations. Thanks again.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6963
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Antifa

Postby Jim » Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:40 am

Perhaps the biggest hang-up of the mod-libs concerning the alt-R, whatever that actually is, has to do with nationalism, defined as “loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.” This has nothing to do with the KKK or “white supremacy” groups since they're interested in exalting one group over another within this country. I am a nationalist—no apologies for that—because I put this country's welfare above that of other countries. The democrat approach as practiced by Obama/Clinton was that the president of the USA is actually the president of the whole world; therefore, putting this country's interests above those of other countries was discriminatory/unacceptable. This nonsense was remarked in Obama's unprovoked attack on Libya. He thought he had an obligation to do that since he disapproved of the Libyan government's stance in its own civil war. He nearly made the same mistake concerning Syria. Trump is making the same mistake in Afghanistan using the excuse that he's helping to squelch terrorism everywhere, sort of acting as the president of the world but actually sending GIs to be back-shot by members of the Taliban, who kicked the Soviets out in the decade of the 80s and will never be defeated by any entity. Results: 15,000 Soviet troops killed; 35,000 wounded; about 1,000,000 civilians killed. The so-called “hate-groups” in this country see it as being culturally undermined by liberals and immigrants. To a great extent, they are right.
Jim
 
Posts: 3605
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:44 pm
Location: Lexington, Ky.

Re: Antifa

Postby Haruo » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:02 pm

Well put, Jim. I don't agree with all of it, but there is something to some of it, and you didn't engage in as much offensive wit as usual, so for me at least it's pretty easy to read. Not a nationalist, so I don't join you on America First; not a fan of borders; but there's still stuff I can at least halfway agree with in there.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11684
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Antifa

Postby KeithE » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:49 pm

Haruo wrote:Well put, Jim. I don't agree with all of it, but there is something to some of it, and you didn't engage in as much offensive wit as usual, so for me at least it's pretty easy to read. Not a nationalist, so I don't join you on America First; not a fan of borders; but there's still stuff I can at least halfway agree with in there.

Agree, it was an improvement for Jim. And like you, Haruo, I’m not a America First person. "Red and yellow, black and white they are equal in His sight."

In this regard, I doubt Trump's new (if it is new at all) Afghanistan strategy will work any better than what has been tried in the past. I would favor a humanitarian approach (give that money we would spend on armed deployment to deploying humanitarian aid and encourage others {e.g Europe} to give aid as well). Then hope that antipathy against the world which fuels the urge to terrorize will subside. IOW try the Jesus way (turn the other cheek, offer your cloak) and the Paul way (feed them, offer drink).

Matt 5:39-40
But I tell you not to resist an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also; if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well;


Romans 12:20
On the contrary, “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink. For in so doing, you will heap burning coals on his head.”
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8403
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Antifa

Postby Haruo » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:06 pm

And yet people who claim to be followers of Jesus brush all that aside when they are in bed with Caesar...
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11684
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Antifa

Postby Haruo » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:06 pm

This is one of the areas where I really think the Mennonites got right what the Baptists (all too many of us, anyhow) got wrong.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11684
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Next

Return to Politics and Public Policy Issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Haruo and 1 guest