Confederate Monuments

[Dave Roberts]

In response to a friend's post yesterday, I began to think about something. I need Confederate monuments. That's right! I need them. I need them as my call to repentance before God. They call me first to repent of the system my ancestors created to enslave people in order to enrich themselves. Okay, maybe these weren't my physical ancestors, but they were my social and religious ancestors. Second, I need them to remind me to repent of the sins of my religious ancestors who insisted God had given the "curse of Ham" so that He intended for people of African descent to be enslaved. Religious people knew better, but they even created divisions in most of protestant Christianity in order to spew their subjugation theories.

Third, I need the Confederate statues to remind me of the 600,000 Americans who were killed in the Southern Rebellion against the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution. It was indeed a terrible war of brother against brother with both sides claiming the same God, but was God ever pleased with that war. I had ancestors who fought doing what their leaders had persuaded them was right but who never themselves owned another human being. I need the reminder of how wrong sometimes we can all be. Those statues of anonymous Confederate soldiers are a powerful reminder of how we can be led astray in large masses to do what we would never envision individually under the guise of protecting something.

Fourth, I need the Confederate monuments to remind me of the context in which they were created. Those little date plaques on the bottom often bear two sets of dates. The first mass group was erected in the 1920's across the South in recognition of the height of the power of the KKK as the bastion of white supremacy. This coincided with the rise of Jim Crow laws creating separate waiting rooms at bus and train stations, relegating people of color to the back of the bus, separate water fountains, and separate treatment for those of color in hospitals where they were treated in the basement rather than in the areas where whites were treated. (This I remember personally from one of the hospitals in my home town.) The other time large numbers of Confederate statues were erected was during the 1950's and 1960's following the Brown vx the Board of Education decision ordering the integration of public schools and in the time surrounding the passage of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act.

Fifth, I need Confederate monuments to remind me of my ancestors refusal to educate black children. The African-American school in my home town only went through the eighth grade. If a black teen wanted to attend high school, they had to board a bus at 7 a.m. each morning and ride 40 miles one way on what were sometimes treacherous mountain roads. They would be retuning home around 5 p.m. in the afternoon thus denying them a chance to work after school which many needed to do. I remember asking one of the leaders of my community about this. A paraphrase of his answer was that they didn't need more education than the eighth grade to stack lumber, sweep floors, or be domestic help. Whenever I remember that system and that attitude, I must say, "God, forgive me."

Sixth, I need Confederate monuments to remind me of how I would rather perpetuate a lie than to see the truth. Many of those Confederate statues glorify Robert E. Lee, but few of those who erect them talk about Lee's life after the Civil War. In reading a recent work dealing with Lee, I learned more about his work after the War Between the States to seek to reunify the nation. His graciousness toward those against whom he had previously fought is seldom mention nor is his desire to see this be again one nation. Rather than dealing with the truth, we in the South have perpetuated the Myth of the Lost Cause, even glorifying the South as morally and religiously superior to the North. I remember reading one of the Convention Sermons of the SBC in the 1950's that proclaimed that Southern Baptists were "God's last and only hope." God, forgive us for preferring a lie to the truth that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Seventh, I need Confederate monuments to help me remember how offensive I can be in the face of other Christians. When I see those statues, I am reminded of how I violate the Golden Rule. I do not consider how the descendants of a slave might feel looking at a monument that glorified a history of oppression, division, deprivation, and wrong. I need these monuments as a call to repentance, not just of my personal sins but of my involvement in the corporate sins of my culture. I need the historical content provided by those statues to remember my sins and to hear God's call to repentance.

[William Thornton]

Dave obviously spent a lot of time thinking and writing about this and I respect his feelings and views on it. Some of the points strayed a good bit from reality. I recognize the technique of the title. It's a hook. But I am no less southern and Christian than he and I don't need the statues to remember.

If he needs to repent, that his private matter to take up with God. What I wrote elsewhere was,

"I feel no need to apologize for my Confederate, slave-owning ancestors, neither do I feel compulsion to ignore or keep secret their lives. As an American who was born, not by my own choice, in the Deep South, I have never felt the need to expiate the sordid past. As a Christian I see neither the biblical command for nor the possibility of any vicarious repentance for the sins of my ancestors."

I have trouble enough with my own sins.

[Dave Roberts]

[Stephen Fox]

As can be expected William differs on this matter with Marshall Frady, Bonhoeffer scholar Charles Marsh, Duke Divinity School's Curtis Freeman, Timothy Tyson and others.

That said, he expressed himself well. I trust he will be reading the RD dot org Treason post by nightfall and join former Clemson Trustee Chair David Wilkins in that exercise.

Bush 43 ambassador to Canada wife, Susan Clary is from Gaffney. Her first husband died in Viet Nam. My Dad was often a "fourth" for Susan's first mother in law in twice weekly morning tennis doubles outtings in the late 70s.

Either here, or on the other post, would like to hear William talk about how Pressler and Patterson and Adrian Rogers navigated the Lee Atwater link in the treason piece.

And also interested in William's thoughts on Tom Graves, Two Pictures of my Father, Christian Ethics today piece about Robert E Lee and M L King. Confession of ancestral sins is a different topic from what are we gonna do now about Donald Trump and Steve Bannon.

[Rvaughn]

I respect Dave’s rights and feeling toward needing the statues, but feel no compulsion along the same lines. I’ve thought, said and done many things which required repentance -- but none of which had anything to do with the Confederacy and its statues (as far as I know). Like William, I also feel no to apologize or repent for something someone else did a hundred and more years ago.

There is a lot of current stir about Confederate monuments in the media, but I’d guess that most folks take little notice of them for either good or ill. An NPR/Maris poll indicates that even a plurality of African-Americans (44%) do not think they need to be removed. Charles Barkley, whose thoughts may reflect much of the 44%, says of the statues, “I’ve always ignored them. I’m 54 years old. I’ve never thought about those statues a day in my life. I think if you ask most black people to be honest, they haven’t thought a day in their life about those stupid statues.”

[William Thornton]

Start pedaling now to get to the SC totality zone. Gaffney is too far. You're good at Furman, Bob Jones, and Honea Path. It'll be an easier trip if you drop all the names before you start out...lessens the load.

[Dave Roberts]

I'm intrigued that no one recognized my irony toward Confederate monuments. The last thing any of the defenders of those monuments wants to consider is seeing statues as a call to repentance. The confessions are real, and I went to too many ball games, both in high school and college where "Dixie" was played even when Black athletes were on the teams. Weren't we highly sensitive to their feelings?

[Jim]

[Dave Roberts]

[Jim]

[Dave Roberts]

Jim, your last remarks are so over the top, I'm not even going to bother with an answer. In the future, find someone else on whom you want to profess your love.

[Jim]

[Jim]

People who are not accustomed to thinking always associate Civil War monuments with slavery and the evil southerners even though there was a sizeable number of slaves in the North, as well as the shipping centers for their transport.

Census in the USA of 1860:
Total population: 31,183,582 (not just the South)
Slaveholders: 393,975 – 8%
slaves: 3,950,528 – 13%, about the same proportion of blacks as now.

Obviously, most of the soldiers on both sides had nothing to do with owning and working slaves. The monuments in both North and South form tributes to individuals who had the brains, brawn and guts to fight for something in which they believed. This was their right. Slavery was not at the top of the list though it was legally eradicated. The monuments represent bravery on both sides – individual and collective bravery every bit as authentic as that of wars both before and after. The monuments should be left standing where they are, if only to remind blacks that white men died freeing their ancestors. The North suffered 642,427 casualties (killed and wounded), nearly all of them white men. My great-grandfather and two great-uncles fought in the Union Army but I believe the monuments should stand even though Great-Grandfather was wounded once and nearly died of disease once. He couldn't be drafted in the neutral state of Kentucky but he joined anyway.

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544817830 ... ium=social

[Dave Roberts]

Rev. Ben Campbell has spent his life ministering in inner-city Richmond. He says it far better than I can.

[Jim]

A delicious irony lies in the fact, concerning the evils of nationalism, that the Washington DC baseball team is officially called the NATIONALS. When I was young, it was called the Senators, a huge slap at the Congressional Representatives, but time goes on. Also ironic is the fact that the NATIONALS are at the top of the standings while the Cincinnati REDS are in the cellar, a clear-cut victory of Nationalism over Communism. Also ironic concerning leadership is the fact that Dusty Baker, the NATIONALS' manager, was the REDS' manager as the job he held before joining Bryce Harper and the gang in Trumpville. Evil NATIONALISTS like me see a faint light (very faint) at the end of the tunnel of wretchedness for the nation and share deep pity for the REDS, my favorite team, which is in bad need of pitchers, thus more millions to hire some. Teams now have interpreters since the Latinos are rapidly taking over the sport, which proves that people with the proper skills are the ones to be allowed as immigrants, something the prez has stressed. Now, when the manager visits the mound with a few un-kind words for his pitcher, a small congregation (infielders and catcher included) is formed - either that or the hand-signals are fun to watch as there is a great chewing and spitting all around, with the ump walking through the mess in order to break up the conflab that gives the pitcher a bit of a rest period while he laughs (inwardly, of course).

[Haruo]

[Jim]

[Rvaughn]

[Haruo]

Thanks, Robert, I was not brought up to think of Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri, I may be missing a couple, as Northern but as Border States.

[Rvaughn]

I understand. They were without doubt border states. It's just a matter of perspective. My main point is that when Southern people speak of "Northern" states in reference to the Civil War, slavery, etc., is that they very likely are not speaking geographically but speaking of which states were in the Union. Missouri, Kentucky and Maryland, might go either way, according to what folks are thinking. This may vary with how different age groups view it as well.

When we use the same terms differently, we often end up in different locations.

[Stephen Fox]

For any of you who are serious about the Civil War; that and Robinson's Pulitzer novel Gilead, and EL Doctorow's simply titled The March, Pearl the slave girl unforgettable, the adaptation of which worthy of 100 million dollar Christopher Nolan Treatment.

Here in Bama it looks like we are gonna play it out all over again as it looks like Steve Bannon in your face to Trump and McConnell endorsing Ten Commandments Judge Roy Moore over Luther Strange of the St Mary's On the Highlands Episcopal Church in Bham about as Blue blood liberal as you can get in Bama. Looks like Moore is gonna win going away in the runoff next Tuesday week which brings SEC Commish Greg Sankey and Nick Saban into play.

So lets get this thang settled once and for all!!!!!

[Rvaughn]

[KeithE]

[Sandy]