Such a confused people...

The place to discuss politics and policy issues that are not directly related to matters of faith.

Moderator: KeithE

Such a confused people...

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:32 am

The USA has moved from 2 genders to dozens or more.

The USA has moved from dozens or more hate groups to 2 (left / right)

I did not post in the prayer thread since it moved from its topic to a "my side" (right or left, depending on who is posting) is the correct side. thread.

The attempts to erase history by removing historical monuments will only ignite the problem greater (IMPO).

The church politically divided stepping in and trying to lead the conversation does not promote the gospel. It seems the Bible is clear, the answer to all this division is the gospel... not a certain political bent or verbal praise or demeaning words of any political leader.

Yeah, it's fun to banter back and forth but when we make it so personal we demean other believers, we diminish the testimony of Christ... in us.

PROMO - If you don't use Grammarly, you might take a gander at it. Great tool for those like me who can make typos with one letter words.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:14 am

Re: Such a confused people...

Postby JE Pettibone » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:44 am

Jon Estes wrote:The USA has moved from 2 genders to dozens or more.

The USA has moved from dozens or more hate groups to 2 (left / right)

I did not post in the prayer thread since it moved from its topic to a "my side" (right or left, depending on who is posting) is the correct side. thread.

The attempts to erase history by removing historical monuments will only ignite the problem greater (IMPO).

The church politically divided stepping in and trying to lead the conversation does not promote the gospel. It seems the Bible is clear, the answer to all this division is the gospel... not a certain political bent or verbal praise or demeaning words of any political leader.

Yeah, it's fun to banter back and forth but when we make it so personal we demean other believers, we diminish the testimony of Christ... in us.

PROMO - If you don't use Grammarly, you might take a gander at it. Great tool for those like me who can make typos with one letter words.


Ed: Well said Jon. Could Grammarly be the driving force behind you apparent swing to being much more conciliatory than in first several years on these boards?
JE Pettibone
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:48 am

Re: Such a confused people...

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:54 am

JE Pettibone wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:The USA has moved from 2 genders to dozens or more.

The USA has moved from dozens or more hate groups to 2 (left / right)

I did not post in the prayer thread since it moved from its topic to a "my side" (right or left, depending on who is posting) is the correct side. thread.

The attempts to erase history by removing historical monuments will only ignite the problem greater (IMPO).

The church politically divided stepping in and trying to lead the conversation does not promote the gospel. It seems the Bible is clear, the answer to all this division is the gospel... not a certain political bent or verbal praise or demeaning words of any political leader.

Yeah, it's fun to banter back and forth but when we make it so personal we demean other believers, we diminish the testimony of Christ... in us.

PROMO - If you don't use Grammarly, you might take a gander at it. Great tool for those like me who can make typos with one letter words.


Ed: Well said Jon. Could Grammarly be the driving force behind you apparent swing to being much more conciliatory than in first several years on these boards?


I don't think so, Ed. Theologically I have not moved. Climbed he age ladder may have helped. Grateful for the SBC resurgence but not real happy with the SBC churches in the USA. We took a solid stand, verbally and obviously in the makeup of the leadership and teaching in the seminaries but I have not seen the church live like the Bible is inerrant. Being international has helped also. Lastly, I no longer live for the debate.

Grammarly is a new thing.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:14 am

Re: Such a confused people...

Postby Sandy » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:03 am

Jon Estes wrote:The attempts to erase history by removing historical monuments will only ignite the problem greater (IMPO).


Yes, it will. But only because so many Americans are virtually ignorant of history, which is heavily sanitized, and only lightly touched on during the elementary and secondary school years.

Having a statue of Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson in a public park, or Jefferson Davis on the courthouse square is the equivalent of having statues of Alfred Jodl and Wilhelm Keitel in a public park, and one of Adolf Hitler or Benito Mussolini on the courthouse square. And the principles and ideals that all of them defended, to the point of going to war, are quite similar. Lee, who received his military training from West Point, and was commissioned in the United States Army, turned his back on his loyalty oath and his commission, and on the constitution itself, to not only side with the Confederate States of America, a rebel nation at war with the United States, but to lead their largest and most effective military division. He was rightly arrested and charged with treason by President Johnson after the war, and got off through the help of Ulysses Grant, who attended West Point with him.

States rights is always the fence behind which the Confederacy's defenders want to hide, but history proves otherwise. The core principle that it was formed to defend, by going to war against the United States, was its belief that whites were a superior race, and that the subjugation of Africans in slavery to the economic benefit of whites was part of the "natural order".

So to Trump's historically ignorant statements of yesterday, no, the next thing isn't to remove statues of Washington and Jefferson. While both of them owned slaves, and in spite of their idealistic language and perspective in setting up a constitutional republic, they were still caught up in the prevailing view of their day, neither of them turned their back on their country to defend the principles of white supremacy. There is, in fact, some indication from both of them, among others of the founding fathers, of a recognition of a paradigm shift occurring regarding institutional slavery and both of them took actions that contributed to the promotion of its demise before they died. Lee had that same opportunity, but chose a different option.

Perhaps there will be a price to pay as the repugnant, ignorant racists attempt to incite violence when a Confederate monument is removed. The chances of that increased substantially yesterday, when they realized that the current occupant of the White House is holding their coats while they incite violence, cheering them on, and blaming the other side for reacting because they were attacked. They are entitled to free speech and expression, no matter how evil, anti-Christian and un-American their ideology is. And if someone wants to put up a Confederate monument, go ahead, on your own property, or someone elses, but not where it takes up space on public, taxpayer supported land, or where it is maintained by public, taxpayer money.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8053
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Such a confused people...

Postby William Thornton » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:36 pm

We're in another bat guano crazy moment here.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11717
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Such a confused people...

Postby Sandy » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:57 pm

Is racial equality a Biblical principle, William?
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8053
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Such a confused people...

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:11 pm

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:The attempts to erase history by removing historical monuments will only ignite the problem greater (IMPO).


Yes, it will. But only because so many Americans are virtually ignorant of history, which is heavily sanitized, and only lightly touched on during the elementary and secondary school years.

Having a statue of Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson in a public park, or Jefferson Davis on the courthouse square is the equivalent of having statues of Alfred Jodl and Wilhelm Keitel in a public park, and one of Adolf Hitler or Benito Mussolini on the courthouse square. And the principles and ideals that all of them defended, to the point of going to war, are quite similar. Lee, who received his military training from West Point, and was commissioned in the United States Army, turned his back on his loyalty oath and his commission, and on the constitution itself, to not only side with the Confederate States of America, a rebel nation at war with the United States, but to lead their largest and most effective military division. He was rightly arrested and charged with treason by President Johnson after the war, and got off through the help of Ulysses Grant, who attended West Point with him.

States rights is always the fence behind which the Confederacy's defenders want to hide, but history proves otherwise. The core principle that it was formed to defend, by going to war against the United States, was its belief that whites were a superior race, and that the subjugation of Africans in slavery to the economic benefit of whites was part of the "natural order".

So to Trump's historically ignorant statements of yesterday, no, the next thing isn't to remove statues of Washington and Jefferson. While both of them owned slaves, and in spite of their idealistic language and perspective in setting up a constitutional republic, they were still caught up in the prevailing view of their day, neither of them turned their back on their country to defend the principles of white supremacy. There is, in fact, some indication from both of them, among others of the founding fathers, of a recognition of a paradigm shift occurring regarding institutional slavery and both of them took actions that contributed to the promotion of its demise before they died. Lee had that same opportunity, but chose a different option.

Perhaps there will be a price to pay as the repugnant, ignorant racists attempt to incite violence when a Confederate monument is removed. The chances of that increased substantially yesterday, when they realized that the current occupant of the White House is holding their coats while they incite violence, cheering them on, and blaming the other side for reacting because they were attacked. They are entitled to free speech and expression, no matter how evil, anti-Christian and un-American their ideology is. And if someone wants to put up a Confederate monument, go ahead, on your own property, or someone elses, but not where it takes up space on public, taxpayer supported land, or where it is maintained by public, taxpayer money.


Your first three words were enough. The spew of venom towards a Christian historical figure like REL from a 21st century perspective without a drop of grace ends the conversation for me.

You can say what else you need. Not worth it to me to mess with such nonsense and attitude. I'll stick with the subject matter.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:14 am

Re: Such a confused people...

Postby Sandy » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:48 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:The attempts to erase history by removing historical monuments will only ignite the problem greater (IMPO).


Yes, it will. But only because so many Americans are virtually ignorant of history, which is heavily sanitized, and only lightly touched on during the elementary and secondary school years.

Having a statue of Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson in a public park, or Jefferson Davis on the courthouse square is the equivalent of having statues of Alfred Jodl and Wilhelm Keitel in a public park, and one of Adolf Hitler or Benito Mussolini on the courthouse square. And the principles and ideals that all of them defended, to the point of going to war, are quite similar. Lee, who received his military training from West Point, and was commissioned in the United States Army, turned his back on his loyalty oath and his commission, and on the constitution itself, to not only side with the Confederate States of America, a rebel nation at war with the United States, but to lead their largest and most effective military division. He was rightly arrested and charged with treason by President Johnson after the war, and got off through the help of Ulysses Grant, who attended West Point with him.

States rights is always the fence behind which the Confederacy's defenders want to hide, but history proves otherwise. The core principle that it was formed to defend, by going to war against the United States, was its belief that whites were a superior race, and that the subjugation of Africans in slavery to the economic benefit of whites was part of the "natural order".

So to Trump's historically ignorant statements of yesterday, no, the next thing isn't to remove statues of Washington and Jefferson. While both of them owned slaves, and in spite of their idealistic language and perspective in setting up a constitutional republic, they were still caught up in the prevailing view of their day, neither of them turned their back on their country to defend the principles of white supremacy. There is, in fact, some indication from both of them, among others of the founding fathers, of a recognition of a paradigm shift occurring regarding institutional slavery and both of them took actions that contributed to the promotion of its demise before they died. Lee had that same opportunity, but chose a different option.

Perhaps there will be a price to pay as the repugnant, ignorant racists attempt to incite violence when a Confederate monument is removed. The chances of that increased substantially yesterday, when they realized that the current occupant of the White House is holding their coats while they incite violence, cheering them on, and blaming the other side for reacting because they were attacked. They are entitled to free speech and expression, no matter how evil, anti-Christian and un-American their ideology is. And if someone wants to put up a Confederate monument, go ahead, on your own property, or someone elses, but not where it takes up space on public, taxpayer supported land, or where it is maintained by public, taxpayer money.


Your first three words were enough. The spew of venom towards a Christian historical figure like REL from a 21st century perspective without a drop of grace ends the conversation for me.

You can say what else you need. Not worth it to me to mess with such nonsense and attitude. I'll stick with the subject matter.


And your unwillingness to acknowledge this for what it is ends the conversation for me.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8053
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Such a confused people...

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:26 pm

In relation to what was originally posted, how gospel centric is the Baptist church in the US, as you make observation and in what ways?
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:14 am


Return to Politics and Public Policy Issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest