Enjoy

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Re: Enjoy

Postby JE Pettibone » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:52 pm

Haruo wrote:Like when the government steals MY money so they overpay some moocher in the fire department to come out and put OUT the fire in my welfare-bum next-door neighbor's house.


Ed: Poor example.
Fires do tend to spread to nearby dwellings if left unattended. Having grown up in a "Row House" I have long appreciated the danger and in buying homes always paid close attention to the location of the nearest fire hydrant. Insurance companies also pay attention to this. :wink:

A better example is the fantastic salaries of employees of some companies who do subcontract work for the Government.
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Re: Enjoy

Postby Haruo » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:30 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:
Haruo wrote:Like when the government steals MY money so they overpay some moocher in the fire department to come out and put OUT the fire in my welfare-bum next-door neighbor's house.


Ed: Poor example.
Fires do tend to spread to nearby dwellings if left unattended. Having grown up in a "Row House" I have long appreciated the danger and in buying homes always paid close attention to the location of the nearest fire hydrant. Insurance companies also pay attention to this. :wink:

A better example is the fantastic salaries of employees of some companies who do subcontract work for the Government.

But those are private-enterprise employees. I picked the firemen because they are clear examples of theft.
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Re: Enjoy

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:35 am

Sandy wrote:With Jon, money is always the bottom line, and particularly, what it is going to cost him. It's never about anything else, and it is always in a selfish context, basically, what he doesn't like, and what he doesn't want to pay for.


Sandy - When you want to spend my money, I do have a say so. Interesting to know you are willing to pay for anything people or government asks for - without a complaint or concern. To only be so selfless. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Enjoy

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:42 am

Sandy wrote:Nah, Jon, with you money is control. You're "conservative" in that the bottom line is money, but you're ok with being less conservative if you can use the money to direct the actions and thoughts of others.

Jon Estes wrote:That I am wiling to do with less and pay my own way (be personally responsible) than you says a lot.


Yes, you're right about that. It does say a lot. One of the things it says is that you really have no idea what it would cost you to "pay your own way" without being the beneficiary of tax dollars. Perhaps your income and cost of living as an expatriate American in Dubai puts you in a category beyond most of us, who basically live from paycheck to paycheck. You can talk about others "free rides" or the standard and provably wrong statement about "keeping them in poverty," but the fact of the matter is those things are a very small percentage of the benefits of your tax dollars. As I said, I can't speak for your income, but there are a lot of things that an average American, middle income family could not afford if it were not for the tax structure and distribution being as it is. Education wouldn't be affordable. If you had to pay for yours, or your kids, out of your pocket, the average for public school is $13,000 per year per kid. Your individual share of the cost of driving on roads and using the infrastructure comes out to about $18,000 a year. We already know that an unsubsidized insurance policy for a reasonably healthy person runs $8,000 per year, times the number of family members. It would be hard to calculate the cost of providing military protection to each American, though if you divide the defense budget by the population, you can add another $35,000 per person to the cost of receiving a benefit provided by taxes. The difference between what you pay in, and what you will get out of Social Security and Medicare over a lifetime is about double the total amount you pay in. So if you are the proverbial middle class family of four, and you wanted to "pay your own way," and to "be responsible," you'd need about $110,000 more in income to pay for the benefits you receive.


I know pretty well where my tax dollars go and I know that our governemet in too big and spends too much on stuff that really doesn't matter.

Sandy when it comes to personal responsibility with his tax dollars and yours...

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I am all in for you to be as ignorant towards personal responsibility as you want to be. Just don't ask me to join you.

I imagine my income bracket in Dubai is less than yours in the USA. I made more in my last 3 churches than I make now. Add to that the high cost of living... we make it but nothing lavish about our life... Except a faithful and completely responsible God.
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Re: Enjoy

Postby Sandy » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:37 pm

Jon Estes wrote:I know pretty well where my tax dollars go and I know that our governemet in too big and spends too much on stuff that really doesn't matter.


Your opinion, not fact. Clearly, if you see the main issue as personal responsibility, and too much money going to the undeserving (your opinion again) then you have no real idea of exactly what or how the government spends its money. If you are a citizen, then you're part of this country, and taxes are part of your obligation. The very fact that you use the term "my" in reference to "your" tax dollars is an indication of your position, and your ignorance.

No one here that I can see has advocated for indiscriminate government spending. But the government has assumed obligations on behalf of its citizens that require resources. And my ministry experience has demonstrated to me, through the people I've met, that there are far more genuine needs than scammers. If the church spent more of its time and resources on ministry, and less time judging the people who need it, the government would have less to do.
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Re: Enjoy

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:01 am

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:I know pretty well where my tax dollars go and I know that our governemet in too big and spends too much on stuff that really doesn't matter.


Your opinion, not fact. Clearly, if you see the main issue as personal responsibility, and too much money going to the undeserving (your opinion again) then you have no real idea of exactly what or how the government spends its money. If you are a citizen, then you're part of this country, and taxes are part of your obligation. The very fact that you use the term "my" in reference to "your" tax dollars is an indication of your position, and your ignorance.

No one here that I can see has advocated for indiscriminate government spending. But the government has assumed obligations on behalf of its citizens that require resources. And my ministry experience has demonstrated to me, through the people I've met, that there are far more genuine needs than scammers. If the church spent more of its time and resources on ministry, and less time judging the people who need it, the government would have less to do.


Lead your church to do intentional ministry... awesome. We do that at EBCI gladly for the kingdom. Come see us and join us for a week of ministry. Bring a group from your church and work with us on a mission project. It will change your heart towards international missions, no matter how great your heart is now.

I would love for you or any BL.com participant to get deep in hands on ministry to some of the most needy. Go into the labor camps and touch lives in many ways.

If Dubai isn't your thing, join us in Kolkata next year... or Bangladesh in March... or Lebanon in the late spring.

I'll be glad to be known for paying less taxes so I can keep more so I can give more to the needy directly in my community oikos.

[img]static.gulfnews.com/polopoly_fs/1.192966!/image/638085982._gen/derivatives/box_460346/638085982.[/img]

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Re: Enjoy

Postby Haruo » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:10 am

Tell us more about the labor camps.
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Re: Enjoy

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:24 am

Haruo wrote:Tell us more about the labor camps.


Not sure what you want to know.

These are mainly men who come her to work in the construction industry, though many industries will fall in the labor work category. Many come and leave their families behind to make a living they cannot make in their countries. The ones we work with do not speak English so we find an interpreter. They live in housing which some may say is over accommodated. We take food (lots of rice), water and small gifts for kids and the women when we can. We join their services, which are weekly scheduled through our missions pastor.

Dubai is a great city due to the vision of the Sheikh. To accomplish this work, many were needed to be brought in from the outside to do the work.

With around 2,000,000 people and only around 15% being Emirate you can see the need for such a workforce.

I do not get into the argument of is it right or wrong. My heart is to love these people and to offer them hope through Jesus. These men, women, children are a part of this community and the biblical mandate is to reach them, not judge them. Offer them help and hope, not pity.

I am blessed to rub shoulders with those from here and the man who are not. One day at a time, one person at a time for the Lord of all time.

Dubai is a great mission field and the work is at our doorstep.

Come join us for a short term. We promise to show you what God uses to be a blessing to us as we reach the labor camps.
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Re: Enjoy

Postby Haruo » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:59 am

Jon Estes wrote:
Haruo wrote:Tell us more about the labor camps.


Not sure what you want to know.

These are mainly men who come her to work in the construction industry, though many industries will fall in the labor work category. Many come and leave their families behind to make a living they cannot make in their countries. The ones we work with do not speak English so we find an interpreter. They live in housing which some may say is over accommodated. We take food (lots of rice), water and small gifts for kids and the women when we can. We join their services, which are weekly scheduled through our missions pastor.

Dubai is a great city due to the vision of the Sheikh. To accomplish this work, many were needed to be brought in from the outside to do the work.

With around 2,000,000 people and only around 15% being Emirate you can see the need for such a workforce.

I do not get into the argument of is it right or wrong. My heart is to love these people and to offer them hope through Jesus. These men, women, children are a part of this community and the biblical mandate is to reach them, not judge them. Offer them help and hope, not pity.

I am blessed to rub shoulders with those from here and the man who are not. One day at a time, one person at a time for the Lord of all time.

Dubai is a great mission field and the work is at our doorstep.

Come join us for a short term. We promise to show you what God uses to be a blessing to us as we reach the labor camps.

I am afraid the chance of my visiting your church or your mission fields is extremely close to nil, though I wouldn't turn the chance down if the financing somehow (miraculously) materialized and if Mrs. H. were well accommodated during my absence. But I am interested in knowing what countries, by and large, the laborers are from (my guesses being Philippines, India, maybe Bangladesh or Pakistan, and East Africa), and what languages they speak that you engage interpreters for.
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Re: Enjoy

Postby Jon Estes » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:01 am

Haruo wrote:I am afraid the chance of my visiting your church or your mission fields is extremely close to nil, though I wouldn't turn the chance down if the financing somehow (miraculously) materialized and if Mrs. H. were well accommodated during my absence. But I am interested in knowing what countries, by and large, the laborers are from (my guesses being Philippines, India, maybe Bangladesh or Pakistan, and East Africa), and what languages they speak that you engage interpreters for.



The group we work most closely with is from India and speak Telugu. The majority of those I Know that can speak English, do not work as construction workers. That is from my connection and not an official picture of percentages.

Laborers not in construction are often from the Philippines. Many others we work with under that label are from Pakistan.

We are an English speaking church. We do travel to Bangladesh each year and underwrite and host a pastors retreat. We use translators for that event. Last year we had 73 pastors. Our underwriting includes housing... feeding... covering transportation for every pastor who attends. In 2018, we hope to build upon that and add a pastors wife retreat simultaneously.

I just now received an email about our helping our partners in Lebanon with a project. I will be meeting with our leadership and the recommendation from finance is to adopt the first item they list (there are seven things listed)...

1- Major renovation of the new premises of the church in Damascus. This was a residential flat and will be turned into a worship hall.

We covered last year the annual salary for 4 new professors at the seminary we work with there. We also underwrote the cost for their youth retreat... and will continue to help with this.

Lots happening. Glorifying God for His goodness.
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Re: Enjoy

Postby Haruo » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:04 am

Sounds like lots of fun!
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