Congressman shot

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Congressman shot

Postby Haruo » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:49 pm

Steve Scalise, a congressman from Louisiana I believe, was shot (along with a number of other people) and at last report was in critical condition, when a former Bernie Sanders campaign worker opened fire on a group of members of Congress, friends, and police officers during a practice outing at a Virginia ballpark in preparation for a charity match.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby KeithE » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:15 am

Haruo wrote:Steve Scalise, a congressman from Louisiana I believe, was shot (along with a number of other people) and at last report was in critical condition, when a former Bernie Sanders campaign worker opened fire on a group of members of Congress, friends, and police officers during a practice outing at a Virginia ballpark in preparation for a charity match.

Prayers offered from those still in critical conditions. Honor due to the capital guards and even Mo Brooks (who I really dislike).

UPS shooting in San Francisco has more fatalities.

Glad that they are continuing with the ballgame.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:57 am

I wish that both sides of the aisle could have an open conversation about how to combat violence. No matter how we approach the issue of guns it goes no where. Is there any way to cross the divide to some common sense discussions that don't turn into just the usual fight over control versus gun rights? (I know, that is a lot to ask.) And also deal with other causes of violence in our society?
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby KeithE » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:36 am

In truth murder rates have decreased since 1991 and as of 2015 is a lower murder rate than 1960.

US Crime 1960-2015

1960 population = 179,323,175 murders= 9,110 murders per 100,000 = 51
1991 population = 252,177,000 murders= 24,700 murders per 100,000 = 98
2015 population = 321,418,820 murders= 15,696 murders per 100,000 = 49

Not that we should be satisfied, since our murder rate is much higher than most all other countries (especially well developed countries)

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Re: Congressman shot

Postby Dave Roberts » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:44 am

There has to be some common sense about violence in this country. Admittedly, we like to celebrate our Wild West heritage, but killings always go beyond solving problems. Every event of violence seems to beget another. The conversation needs to be long, careful, and consistent without the NRA shutting off the discussion. They should be part of it but not allowed to determine the outcomes before the conversation starts.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:48 am

Dave Roberts wrote:There has to be some common sense about violence in this country. Admittedly, we like to celebrate our Wild West heritage, but killings always go beyond solving problems. Every event of violence seems to beget another. The conversation needs to be long, careful, and consistent without the NRA shutting off the discussion. They should be part of it but not allowed to determine the outcomes before the conversation starts.


Agreed. And it needs to include more than guns. But guns are a big part of it.

When I was in Ireland this past month I learned that while in past history there has been a lot of violence in Ireland, for much of the past 20 years political change but also strong laws about guns have greatly reduced armed attackers. The police don't even carry guns because, since no one else has guns other than for very specific purposes, it isn't an issue.

I don't honestly know how we move forward on this. But I'm saddened that we don't seem to try harder to reduce the level of violence.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby KeithE » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:16 pm

A big part of the solution is making a livable wage plentifully available to all. That means good jobs that provide dignity. I approve of Trump's recent announcements about worker development and apprenticeship programs.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby JE Pettibone » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:52 am

KeithE wrote:A big part of the solution is making a livable wage plentifully available to all. That means good jobs that provide dignity. I approve of Trump's recent announcements about worker development and apprenticeship programs.


Ed: So Keith, how do you define "good Job" and "dignity"? Are you suggesting that a person with poor job can not have dignity?

And can there be a functioning society where only "good jobs" exist?
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby KeithE » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:12 am

Answers to Ed’s “questions” in red.
JE Pettibone wrote:
KeithE wrote:A big part of the solution is making a livable wage plentifully available to all. That means good jobs that provide dignity. I approve of Trump's recent announcements about worker development and apprenticeship programs.


Ed: So Keith, how do you define "good Job" and "dignity"?
So Ed, check a dictionary.

I’ll add that one aspect of a “good" job would be adequate pay to make a living. http://livingwage.mit.edu
. And that livable wage is about twice that of min wage job. Another aspect of a good job is its sense of meaning to the person employed.

Are you suggesting that a person with poor job can not have dignity?

Nothing that categorical.

And can there be a functioning society where only "good jobs" exist?
Yes, but that society could be functioning at a higher level if all had good jobs and more access to mental counsel and less access to guns.


People get desperate with personal economic stress and often strike out at others. Not the only reason for violent crime, but a large reason.

One study: The Effects of Unemployment on Crime Rates in the U.S.. There are many more.

Abstract:
This paper aims to analyze the relationship between unemployment and crime rate. Using data from 2013 acquired from the Federal Bureau of Investigation (used for violent crime rate data) and from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (used for unemployment data), the effect of unemployment rate on violent crime is estimated. In addition to unemployment rate, GDP per capita, high school graduation rates, police officers per 100,000 inhabitants, as well as poverty rates also are accounted for. Two equations are present, one which estimates the variable’s impacts on violent crime, and another for their impacts on property crime. In both the simple and multiple regression models for estimated the enumerated variables’ impacts on crime rate, the results were that there were positive effects of these variables on the crime rate. From this, it can be concluded that there is a positive correlation between both violent and property crime, not only with unemployment rate, but also with GDP per capita, high school graduation rates, police officers per 100,000 inhabitants, and poverty rate.


Thus I say a “big part of the solution” is jobs- good ones. The lower and middle class are hurting. The real question will Trump/Majority Party deliver.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby JE Pettibone » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:38 pm

Ed: Keith please note the paper to which you link refers only to the effect of unemployment to violent crime, nothing about good or bad jobs. see abstract below and go back to read article.

One study: The Effects of Unemployment on Crime Rates in the U.S..

Abstract:

This paper aims to analyze the relationship between unemployment and crime rate. Using data from 2013 acquired from the Federal Bureau of Investigation (used for violent crime rate data) and from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (used for unemployment data), the effect of unemployment rate on violent crime is estimated. In addition to unemployment rate, GDP per capita, high school graduation rates, police officers per 100,000 inhabitants, as well as poverty rates also are accounted for. Two equations are present, one which estimates the variable’s impacts on violent crime, and another for their impacts on property crime. In both the simple and multiple regression models for estimated the enumerated variables’ impacts on crime rate, the results were that there were positive effects of these variables on the crime rate. From this, it can be concluded that there is a positive correlation between both violent and property crime, not only with unemployment rate, but also with GDP per capita, high school graduation rates, police officers per 100,000 inhabitants, and poverty rate.


You may or may not be aware that economist begin to worry about inflation when the unemployment rate falls to 4.5. Notice also that the story mentions 5% unemployment as normal. It is my studied opinion, based on 20 years of working with the chronically unemployed and underemployed, that for them inflation is a critical issue separating the haves and havenots, more so than likeability of a job particular job. It is true that employers sometimes have to pay more to find loyal capable employees for less desirable jobs. Note also the many other issues which have direct correlation between violent crimes and property crimes.
Last edited by JE Pettibone on Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby KeithE » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:36 pm

I didn’t have in mind that the content and meaning of a job was particularly a cause of murder. But I was suggesting that economic plight that the jobless or inadequately paid people (say working at Hardee’s) sometimes get desperate and get violent? That, imo, is a big part of the problem with our American penchant of homicide and I offered an academic paper as evidence. There are certainly other problems as well contributing to our penchant for violence - our movies, infidelity, our lack of metal health care, illicit and psychiatrically-prescribed drugs*, our availability of guns. etc.

Ed P said:
It is my studied opinion, based on 20 years of working with the chronically unemployed and underemployed, that for them inflation is a critical issue separating the haves and havenots, more so than likeability of a job particular job.


Inflation was a bad problem in the 70’s but not a real issue since. Look at Consumer Price Index (bold gray line) on the plot here (couldn’t easily provide it here). That could have been a cause of the increase in the homicide rate in the 60s/70s (well at least in the 70s). I think the relative good economic times in the 90’s could be a reason for the drop in the homicide rate in the 90’s. What do you think causes our (the USA) penchant for murder compared to other countries?

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* Just encountered this today. Read More Here
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby JE Pettibone » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:00 pm

added into Keith's last post Just encountered this today. Read More Here https://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/

Ed: Which has exactly what to do with your contention that better jobs with higher pay would be a big part of the solution to this country's violence problem?

To quote you directly
I say a “big part of the solution” is jobs- good ones.


Yet your links show nothing to suggest a correlation. you may need to go back to the search button.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby KeithE » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:31 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:added into Keith's last post Just encountered this today. Read More Here https://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/

Ed: Which has exactly what to do with your contention that better jobs with higher pay would be is a solution to this country's violence problem?


It was an asterisk in my earlier text:

There are certainly other problems as well contributing to our penchant for violence - our movies, infidelity, our lack of metal health care, illicit and psychiatrically-prescribed drugs*, our availability of guns. etc.


Read it - it was new to me today (in a book I was reading).

Here is the lead-in.

At least 36 school shootings and/or school-related acts of violence have been committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs resulting in 172 wounded and 80 killed (in other school shootings, information about their drug use was never made public—neither confirming or refuting if they were under the influence of prescribed drugs). The most important fact about this list, is that these are only cases where the information about their psychiatric drug use was made public. (See full list below)


Then they give the details of all 36 school shootings and the drug involved.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby JE Pettibone » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:44 pm

KeithE wrote:
JE Pettibone wrote:added into Keith's last post Just encountered this today. Read More Here https://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/

Ed: Which has exactly what to do with your contention that better jobs with higher pay would be is a solution to this country's violence problem?


It was an asterisk in my earlier text:

There are certainly other problems as well contributing to our penchant for violence - our movies, infidelity, our lack of metal health care, illicit and psychiatrically-prescribed drugs*, our availability of guns. etc.


Read it - it was new to me today (in a book I was reading).

Here is the lead-in.

At least 36 school shootings and/or school-related acts of violence have been committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs resulting in 172 wounded and 80 killed (in other school shootings, information about their drug use was never made public—neither confirming or refuting if they were under the influence of prescribed drugs). The most important fact about this list, is that these are only cases where the information about their psychiatric drug use was made public. (See full list below)


Then they give the details of all 36 school shootings and the drug involved.


Ed: Details that say nothing about the shooters employment status.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby KeithE » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:02 am

Ed, you really don't understand me much. I said there were other reasons besides "good jobs" that could cause murders and one was psychiatric drugs.

Read my posts again slowly.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby JE Pettibone » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:36 am

[color=#FF8000]
KeithE wrote:Ed, you really don't understand me much. I said there were to other reasons besides "good jobs" that could cause murders and one was psychiatric drugs.
Read my posts again slowly.


Ed: Keith, I read your post, If I do not understand you, I suggest that is as much your fault as it is mine. BTW do you read my post? I had already said there are many factors other than ones employment status that precipitate violence including murder.

I am through chasing your bunny trail. I have better tings to do.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby KeithE » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:08 am

Yes I do read your posts. I was agreeing with you that there are many factors while maintaining that economic plight is often a big contributing factor.

Sorry I brought a new (for me) factor but I found it interesting and well attested.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby Tim Bonney » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:38 am

KeithE wrote:
Thus I say a “big part of the solution” is jobs- good ones. The lower and middle class are hurting. The real question will Trump/Majority Party deliver.


No question at all that they won't. They've made it clear that they are in the pockets of the rich and powerful. They have no interest in the middle class beyond duping them into voting for them.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby KeithE » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:42 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:
KeithE wrote:
Thus I say a “big part of the solution” is jobs- good ones. The lower and middle class are hurting. The real question will Trump/Majority Party deliver.


No question at all that they won't. They've made it clear that they are in the pockets of the rich and powerful. They have no interest in the middle class beyond duping them into voting for them.

Amen to that.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby Sandy » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:12 am

Events like this, up to this point, haven't changed anything. The Republican party has stonewalled and stopped any attempt to protect people from mass shootings, putting it all in the box of the NRA's rigid and intolerant position on the "right to bear arms." It's been OK as far as they're concerned, not to do anything to protect students in schools, or to offer real solutions that work, instead of just jabber and inaction. Now that someone descended on a group of Republican congressmen with an automatic weapon, I expect there will be some changes.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby KeithE » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:46 pm

Sandy wrote:Events like this, up to this point, haven't changed anything. The Republican party has stonewalled and stopped any attempt to protect people from mass shootings, putting it all in the box of the NRA's rigid and intolerant position on the "right to bear arms." It's been OK as far as they're concerned, not to do anything to protect students in schools, or to offer real solutions that work, instead of just jabber and inaction. Now that someone descended on a group of Republican congressmen with an automatic weapon, I expect there will be some changes.

I hope you are right Sandy. But I'm not as optimistic about any gun control or mental health funding or any action to curb our violent actions - worse than most developed countries.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby Sandy » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:15 pm

A small step. Maybe. If the Republicans would just put some common sense and reality into their fantasyland, they might actually accomplish something beneficial for the population at large. I know that's antithetical to their principles, helping and protecting people and all, but they might find they like it if they give it a try.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpos ... a9999d6a07
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:04 am

Sandy wrote:Events like this, up to this point, haven't changed anything. The Republican party has stonewalled and stopped any attempt to protect people from mass shootings, putting it all in the box of the NRA's rigid and intolerant position on the "right to bear arms." It's been OK as far as they're concerned, not to do anything to protect students in schools, or to offer real solutions that work, instead of just jabber and inaction. Now that someone descended on a group of Republican congressmen with an automatic weapon, I expect there will be some changes.


Tell us Sandy, what law would need to be passed to have situations such as this shooting, stopped? What law would need to be passed to stop all terroristic... mentally unstable / hate filled killings? What law must be passed to give the protection you say the people need? You seem to know what the Republicans have stonewalled or stopped, please fill us in.

You do know the NRA did not come up with the idea of the right to bear arms. I think your problem is a constitutional one.

Enlighten us on one specific law the Republicans have stonewalled or stopped that would have kept this and previous shootings (mass killings) from happening?

I think your left winged, nut job, talking points are empty fodder.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:07 am

Sandy wrote:A small step. Maybe. If the Republicans would just put some common sense and reality into their fantasyland, they might actually accomplish something beneficial for the population at large. I know that's antithetical to their principles, helping and protecting people and all, but they might find they like it if they give it a try.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpos ... a9999d6a07


When the Democrats had the house and senate, why didn't they do something about this? It must have been antithetical to their principles, helping and protecting people and all.
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Re: Congressman shot

Postby Tim Bonney » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:34 am

Jon, I'm not Sandy. But backgrounds checks for mentally ill people I understand was recently removed by a bill that went through congress. I see that background check potentially having a positive effect. Most Americans support background checks.

The Democrats have failed as much as the GOP on the issues of guns and violence. Neither should get a pass because the other failed.
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