Worth Bringing to the Top

The place to discuss politics and policy issues that are not directly related to matters of faith.

Moderator: KeithE

Worth Bringing to the Top

Postby Sandy » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:46 pm

One of the best links Stephen has ever posted

https://www.ft.com/content/b41d0ee6-1e9 ... 3f5a7f229c
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Worth Bringing to the Top

Postby KeithE » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:35 pm

Sandy wrote:One of the best links Stephen has ever posted

https://www.ft.com/content/b41d0ee6-1e9 ... 3f5a7f229c

That is a GREAT article. I'll always appreciated Flynt and his assessment of where evangelicalism has gone to is spot on - main focus is on two issues abortion and homosexuality. Little or nothing about loving one's neighbor, care for the poor, family cohesion, care for creation, or limiting materialism.

As you know live in Alabama (perhaps a more progressive city than most AL cities but still very conservative/Republican.). The main reason Alabama church goers (evangelicals all I think) that I have talked to have for voting for Trump are:

1) He will end American being bullied by the world (4 that I kind can of)
2) They are sick an tired of political correctness (4 that I can think of)
3) They want an end to over-regulation (2 that I can think of)
4) They want to end abortion (1 that I can think of) ; also wanted a Supreme Court Justice that would vote to end abortion.

No one has explicitly identified 5) softness about homosexuality, or 6) immigration policy or 7) terrorism as a reason for voting for Trump but I'm sure these are at least a contributing reason in some people’s mind.

I’m just saying there are lots of reasons people in the South voted for Trump and he skillfully exploited all of these factors.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8409
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Worth Bringing to the Top

Postby William Thornton » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:25 am

Almost all of my friends, churchgoing baptists mostly, voted Trump primarily because of anti-Hil sentiments. None, not one, had trump as a first choice. All of your reasons are valid but secondary. Dems lost the election to the most inexperienced candidate in history because of their extremely weak, high negative, appallingly poor nominee.

Here in ga in the high profile congressional special election, the GOP candidate generates very little enthusiasm, like Clinton last year. She will likely lose, although she is far more experienced and qualified than her opponent. I'd vote for her but with a yawn (not my district).

Sandy will be pleased that the UK Labor/socialist party gained seats, though the Conservative party, a few seats short of a majority, *may* come up with a majority coalition.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Worth Bringing to the Top

Postby Sandy » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:15 am

William Thornton wrote: Dems lost the election to the most inexperienced candidate in history because of their extremely weak, high negative, appallingly poor nominee.


Dems, specifically Hillary, lost the election because of a continuous barrage of fake email and hacking dumps aimed at voter suppression, provided by the Russians, and because of a very ill-timed, and absolutely unnecessary announcement by James Comey after she had already been cleared by the FBI regarding the emails, which the Trump campaign weaponized. The extremely weak, high negative, appallingly poor nominee not only bested Trump by three million votes, but bested every other candidate in the history of American elections except Barack Obama.

I'd say that the polling data and other evidence trumps the anecdotal evidence provided by your friends. There are many Christians around me here, many of them with kids in the school, who didn't vote for Trump and were horrified at the prospect of him being president. They saw it as an abandonment of values and core principles of faith, as I do. But there are others who see him as exactly what he set himself up to be, a political and economic savior, and who clap their hands over their ears, buy into the propaganda of the extremist right wing media, including all the rhetoric about the "mainstream media" and live in their fantasy world where they can flip flop on character issues depending on the candidate and what he promises to do for them. For most of the evangelical leadership, those who have enriched themselves off of peddling the gospel, I think the money is the attraction. His policies, they think, will stroke their selfishness and greed, and allow them to keep more of what they collect from the grey haired ladies they bilk. The rest are mainly those who think that these self-appointed leaders are prophets. One of my employees flatly stated that while she understands Trump is an adulterer, is crude, joked about grabbing women's genitals, runs strip clubs and gambling joints, and is probably in collusion with Putin, it doesn't matter because Pastor Hagee prophesied that Trump was God's choice and that God sometimes chooses bad men to lead. Such is the mentality of many evangelicals.

Glad to see the UK election turn out as it did. Too bad snap elections aren't constitutional here.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Worth Bringing to the Top

Postby Jim » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:19 am

KeithE wrote:
Sandy wrote:One of the best links Stephen has ever posted

https://www.ft.com/content/b41d0ee6-1e9 ... 3f5a7f229c

That is a GREAT article. I'll always appreciated Flynt and his assessment of where evangelicalism has gone to is spot on - main focus is on two issues abortion and homosexuality. Little or nothing about loving one's neighbor, care for the poor, family cohesion, care for creation, or limiting materialism.

As you know live in Alabama (perhaps a more progressive city than most AL cities but still very conservative/Republican.). The main reason Alabama church goers (evangelicals all I think) that I have talked to have for voting for Trump are:

1) He will end American being bullied by the world (4 that I kind can of)
2) They are sick an tired of political correctness (4 that I can think of)
3) They want an end to over-regulation (2 that I can think of)
4) They want to end abortion (1 that I can think of) ; also wanted a Supreme Court Justice that would vote to end abortion.

No one has explicitly identified 5) softness about homosexuality, or 6) immigration policy or 7) terrorism as a reason for voting for Trump but I'm sure these are at least a contributing reason in some people’s mind.

I’m just saying there are lots of reasons people in the South voted for Trump and he skillfully exploited all of these factors.


Democrats outnumber republicans (registered) by 48% - 44%, according to Pew. This is reflected in approval polls, though poll-rigging for an appropriate outcome is always operative, as well-documented in 2016. Here is a good link for multiple breakdowns, as well-documented in 2016: http://www.people-press.org/2016/09/13/2-party-affiliation-among-voters-1992-2016/.
Jim
 
Posts: 3606
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:44 pm
Location: Lexington, Ky.

Re: Worth Bringing to the Top

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:38 pm

William Thornton wrote:Almost all of my friends, churchgoing baptists mostly, voted Trump primarily because of anti-Hil sentiments. None, not one, had trump as a first choice.
My experience is the same among my friends who voted for Trump. He was first choice for none of them, but they could not vote for Hillary and would not vote third-party.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 623
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Worth Bringing to the Top

Postby Haruo » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:21 pm

William Thornton wrote:Almost all of my friends, churchgoing baptists mostly, voted Trump primarily because of anti-Hil sentiments. None, not one, had trump as a first choice. All of your reasons are valid but secondary. Dems lost the election to the most inexperienced candidate in history because of their extremely weak, high negative, appallingly poor nominee.

Here in ga in the high profile congressional special election, the GOP candidate generates very little enthusiasm, like Clinton last year. She will likely lose, although she is far more experienced and qualified than her opponent. I'd vote for her but with a yawn (not my district).

Sandy will be pleased that the UK Labor/socialist party gained seats, though the Conservative party, a few seats short of a majority, *may* come up with a majority coalition.

I find it extremely ironic that the coalition Ms. May proposes (with the Conservatives and the Democratic Unionists of Northern Ireland) depends for its potential working majority on the silent abstention of Sinn Fein, historically the DUP's bitterest foes. Sinn Fein's MPs refuse to take their seats in London (because they would have to pledge allegiance to the Queen), which reduces the number of seats needed for a coalition to succeed.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11696
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Worth Bringing to the Top

Postby KeithE » Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:27 am

The article How the Bible Belt lost God and found Trump is about an interview by a Gary Silverman with Wayne Flynt, a man I greatly appreciate. Key quote in article:

I wondered how a thrice-married former casino owner — who had been recorded bragging about grabbing women by the genitals — had won over the faithful.

Flynt’s answer is that his people are changing. The words of Jesus, as recorded in the Gospels, are less central to their thinking and behaviour, he says. Church is less compelling. Marriage is less important. Reading from a severely abridged Bible, their political concerns have narrowed down to abortion and issues involving homosexuality. Their faith, he says, has been put in a president who embodies an unholy trinity of materialism, hedonism and narcissism. Trump’s victory, in this sense, is less an expression of the old-time religion than evidence of a move away from it.


While I agree totally with the general statements in red above, I do not think that evangelicals solely thought about abortion and homosexuality while casting their votes. That is simplifying the evangelical mind too much and think that Flynt would agree with me - if he were asked to clarify the above summary of his views by the article’s author. For instance, William and Rvaughn are surely right is saying Hillary hatred was a major factor. Trump took a hatred of Hillary in 2014/5 (that grew up in the RW punditry/FoxNews circle) - about 20-35% of Americans - and skillfully grew that to a 46.4% voting block by
1) adding several other smaller voting blocks (anti-regulation, anti-government, anti-Obama, anti-immigration, drain the swamp types, ...),
2) fear mongering about terrorism - irrational in my view, See this chart.
3) enthusiastic rallies complete with “lock her up” chants, etc.

Very skillful politician from the “non-politician”. I’ll give him that.

I would urge Christians of all stripes to read and ponder anew the statements in red above.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8409
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Worth Bringing to the Top

Postby Sandy » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:35 pm

Keith E wrote:While I agree totally with the general statements in red above, I do not think that evangelicals solely thought about abortion and homosexuality while casting their votes. That is simplifying the evangelical mind too much and think that Flynt would agree with me -


There's a culture that has developed within white evangelical Christianity in this country that comes from its blending with conservative politics which has created this particular worldview. It does revolve around abortion and homosexuality, but there is more to it than that. While claiming to believe in inerrancy and infallibility, the worldview that has developed drives most evangelicals to a rejection and a separation from ministry to the kind of people that Jesus spent most of his time serving. They've created a social environment in which they only associate with people who share a common ideology, and who look and act like they do. Consequently, white evangelicals are aging and declining in number. It's hypocritical to separate opposition to abortion and homosexuality as sins, and to claim for a couple of generations now, that you can't be a "Christian" and vote for politicians who support those things, but then vote for a politician whose lifestyle of adultery, chasing after prostitutes, exploiting women in strip clubs, and is generally corrupt in his business dealings. That tends to make a mockery of everything you do and public political support requires ownership of the whole package.

If you accept the inerrancy and infallibility of the Bible, then you have to acknowledge what Jesus said, what he taught, and the example he set. It's kind of simplifying it to say that Jesus didn't come to save the righteous, he came to save sinners, since there is much more involved in investing in ministry to "sinners" than the emphasis of verbal witnessing and "lifestyle" evangelism that is the practice of most evangelicals. It makes it easy for the mostly prosperous suburbanites who flock to mega churches of the evangelical stripe three Sundays or so a month, go to their exercise class there on Tuesday, the youth group on Wednesday night, and toss a couple of cans of food into the pantry bin and call it a day. Most wouldn't hang out with the "tax collectors and sinners," including the kinds of sinners they like to use as a means of gathering votes for conservative candidates.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania


Return to Politics and Public Policy Issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests