Degrees of Collusion

[KeithE]

Wrt the Russian investigation, I’d like to discuss the various modes of collusion in chronological order.

Mode 1: Long standing Trump/Russia plan to place a US President to Russia’s liking
Say in 2014 or 2015, Putin contacts Trump and suggests that he runs for President and that he will help him by providing hacked emails from Hillary and any other help (e.g. voter registration meddling). They have stayed in near constant contact since that time (doing Modes 2-5)

Unlikely in my view, but let the investigations continue.

Mode 2: Trump/Putin work together to help Trump win Nomination
Trump, encouraged by early prospects, contacts Putin and asks to make a deal. What would Russia want in exchange for election help? Putin replies - change your platform to cut opposition to Russia’s incursion into Ukraine.

Possible, in fact the GOP platform was changed.

Mode 3: Trump hears that Russia has many Hillary emails that could be embarrassing to her.
Trump has associates inquiry into Hillary and associates emails that Russia may have through Wikileaks or their own efforts. He encourages Russia to release more.

Likely, in fact Trump even publicly asked “Russia if you are listening...”. near end of this video.

Mode 4: After election, Trump wants start early by hoping Russia can help in fight against ISIS
Trump has Flynn, maybe others, contact Russia to see if they change tactics to be more anti-ISIS in their Syrian military actions (generally favoring Assad)

Likely and perhaps laudable except for acting as a US representative before inauguration - violates US law - the

Mode 5: After Obama’s sanctions against Russia and Trump reflexively is against any Obama Action
Trump has Flynn/others (e.g. Kushner) signal to Russia that these sanctions will be negated after he is in power.

Probably true. Flynn was fired for lying about this to Pence and now the closed embassies are being considered to be opened again.

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Personally I think Mode 3 through 5 are true (possibly 2 as well). What do ya’ll think.

Plan to post discussion about “Degrees of Obstruction of Justice” before Comey’s testimony on Thursday.

[Sandy]

The degrees of collusion between the Trump campaign and the various elements of Russian intelligence that were confirmed to have been involved in interfering in the election are starting to become clear as each new day of hearings turns up more and more evidence, and more names of specific individuals who were involved. Interesting story by both Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow last night, reporting that Trump is having trouble lining up a private law firm to represent him personally during the investigation, because he has stiffed so many lawyers in his business dealings, no one wants to take the risk of doing the work and not getting paid for it.

So far the Russians have received quite a few rewards for their efforts on Trump's behalf. They've been trying for years to neutralize the NATO alliance, and that's been accomplished, not even a year into his presidency. He negotiated a "deal" with the Saudis that essentially gives the Russians top dollar for their crude. He's running interference for them on a military deal that will allow the Russian army and air force to station troops, and house planes, tanks, and missile launchers literally just a few miles from the Israeli border, and deep into the Middle East, much closer to the Kuwaiti and Arabian oil fields, and literally surrounding those of Northern Iraq.

No wonder the Russians were interested.

[Jim]

[Sandy]

We're not just talking links to media reports here, Jim. We're talking two congressional committees, both controlled by Republicans, an independent investigator, and a mountain of evidence produced by the CIA and the FBI, which are the two best intelligence agencies in the world.

Conspiracy theories are just that, theories. What we have in this particular drama are actual individuals whose talk and action have been identified, recorded, and corroborated. What the Russians did to interfere in the election has been identified, down to specific documents and dates, and that's no theory, that's an established fact. Moving on from there might involve some "conspiracy theory," but again, in this case, specific individuals have been identified, right up to Michael Flynn who has already more or less said he'll squeal if he can stay out of the pokey. About the only speculation right now is how much Trump knew, and when he knew it, or if he was at the center of it all along. The only "conspiracy theory" aspect of this that's left now is whether and to what extend Pence was involved.

I'm sure Jim and Jon will keep us ROFL with all of the inane, absurd right wing crapola they can dig up. Jim's post shows that he knows absolutely nothing about this.

[KeithE]

[Jim]

[Jon Estes]

[Sandy]

Neither of you are paying attention. First of all, there is evidence, a mountain of it, that establishes Russian interference. Google and get the hearing notes. There are pages and pages of it. Second, there is evidence connecting specific Trump campaign officials to the Russian intelligence agency, and other Russian sources of interference directly. Google the hearing notes. There are at least five campaign officials who have been identified, and issued subpoenas, and two that have asked for immunity, and one for whom Trump obstructed justice to ask the FBI to back off. I'd suggest that you plan some time, sit down in front of your screen, and go through about two weeks worth of Greta VanSustern, Chris Matthews, Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow. They've laid it all out, more or less chronologically, and unless you can come up with something of substance that indicates their facts are incorrect, they're credible references on this subject. I've made that statement before, and have yet to see any challenge to their reporting. Third, there is no evidence that has been presented publicly which mentions Trump as being directly involved, though that is incidental to the issue if his campaign was involved. Coats' refusal to answer questions in the hearing yesterday directly related to Trump's involvement is a legitimate clue as to what might be coming down the pike.

If there's nothing there, then why is the Trump White House going to all of this extended activity to try to undermine Comey, and get out in front of the testimony today? Why not just put the records of the conversations between the five campaign officials and the Russians they were involved with multiple times prior to the election out on the table so everyone can see it? None of the intelligence chiefs say that there is no evidence? That's not true. The two on the stand yesterday simply refused to testify, claiming that the evidence they have is "classified."

Then there's the former intelligence chief Clapper. Video in the link here.

http://globalnews.ca/news/3509198/trump ... committee/

It seems pretty obvious that there are multiple means by which the Republicans, who are in control of all of this, could easily shut it down and make it go away. If there were no evidence, and nothing to it, they'd have done it a long time ago. It's pointless to discuss this with his supporters, who mindlessly shut out any credible source of information and think that this will all just go away because it's not real and it didn't happen.

[Jim]

[Jon Estes]

[Sandy]

Well, Jon, given that Trump has done everything that was on Putin's agenda in less than 150 days in office, and has accomplished absolutely nothing else, including his long list of promises, I'd say that at least gives investigators reason to look into it. Of course, as the investigation has continued, it has turned up considerable evidence (watch the videos and read the article I posted) of both Russian interference, and Trump campaign collusion. So far there are five individuals who served in the Trump campaign, including two of the campaign managers, who have been named as having turned up in the evidence that has been gathered, who were all in contact with the Russians involved in the disruption. Up to this point, no evidence has been presented in testimony, or released, that indicates Trump's direct involvement, but that's really immaterial at this point because whether he had direct contact with the Russians or not, he certainly had contact with his campaign officers who had plenty of contact that they failed to report according to law. But collusion isn't his only problem at this point. There is evidence, plenty of it, that he tried to use his influence to get the investigation shut down, at least on Flynn's behalf. Whether he colluded with the Russians or not, he tried to get the investigation shut down at least by putting pressure on the FBI, and clearly through the justice department.

[Sandy]

[Jim]

As happens often in being retired again, I watched the big congressional event today, Comey’s requested Senate appearance to try to salvage his reputation, assuming he feels he’s been had. I wish he hadn’t been fired but the hearing today did not help him; rather, he squirmed at times and made himself look bad, such as when he admitted that he gave his famous memos (after waking in the dead of night worrying about possible tapes) to a law-professor friend so the friend could LEAK them to the MSM and thus neutralize potential damage to his side of the “story.” More importantly, he made clear that the special counsel would get to the bottom of the mess, if one actually exists. This means that the trail will inevitably lead back to Hillary, as it did today, when even the infamous “tarmac tete-a-tete” between Obama’s AG and Big Bubba was mentioned and AG Lynch’s insistence that the term “investigation” concerning Hillary be referenced as a “matter,” instead, even though the INVESTIGATION conclusively incriminating Clinton had just been concluded. So…the plot thickens.

[Sandy]

Here are some sources, from several different perspectives.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/08/us/p ... .html?_r=0
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN18Z0HC
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... e7c19578e9
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politic ... ng-n769941

Quite a contrast to Jim's perception, but that's predictable, since he never lets facts interfere with his analysis. Sounds like he hit the wrong button and was watching the cartoon channel.

[Jim]

[Sandy]

[William Thornton]

Ummm...I'm betting Sandy will not ignore Jim. Just a wild prediction.

[Jim]

[KeithE]

[Sandy]

Looks like, with each passing day, the evidence of collusion grows, inside the family, and now involving all three of his campaign managers. Rachel Maddow at MSNBC doing an excellent job of simply laying out facts.

[Jon Estes]

This forum is no longer a political discussion forum but a conspiracy theory forum.

What a shame.

[William Thornton]

It's not a shame that we get a steady diet of this here but that Dems and libs, msm and others, have staked their future on this. Hil and the dnc were dishonest, pathetic, and ran a terrible campaign against the weakest candidate in generations. Who conspired to do that?

[KeithE]

[Jon Estes]

[Sandy]