Degrees of Collusion

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Degrees of Collusion

Postby KeithE » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:06 am

Wrt the Russian investigation, I’d like to discuss the various modes of collusion in chronological order.

Mode 1: Long standing Trump/Russia plan to place a US President to Russia’s liking
Say in 2014 or 2015, Putin contacts Trump and suggests that he runs for President and that he will help him by providing hacked emails from Hillary and any other help (e.g. voter registration meddling). They have stayed in near constant contact since that time (doing Modes 2-5)

Unlikely in my view, but let the investigations continue.

Mode 2: Trump/Putin work together to help Trump win Nomination
Trump, encouraged by early prospects, contacts Putin and asks to make a deal. What would Russia want in exchange for election help? Putin replies - change your platform to cut opposition to Russia’s incursion into Ukraine.

Possible, in fact the GOP platform was changed. Republicans adopted pro-Russia stance on Ukraine as Trump officials met with Russian ambassador

Mode 3: Trump hears that Russia has many Hillary emails that could be embarrassing to her.
Trump has associates inquiry into Hillary and associates emails that Russia may have through Wikileaks or their own efforts. He encourages Russia to release more.

Likely, in fact Trump even publicly asked “Russia if you are listening...”. July speech near end of this video.

Mode 4: After election, Trump wants start early by hoping Russia can help in fight against ISIS
Trump has Flynn, maybe others, contact Russia to see if they change tactics to be more anti-ISIS in their Syrian military actions (generally favoring Assad)

Likely and perhaps laudable except for acting as a US representative before inauguration - violates US law - the Foreign Agents Registration Act.

Mode 5: After Obama’s sanctions against Russia and Trump reflexively is against any Obama Action
Trump has Flynn/others (e.g. Kushner) signal to Russia that these sanctions will be negated after he is in power.

Probably true. Flynn was fired for lying about this to Pence and now the closed embassies are being considered to be opened again. TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WEIGHS RETURN OF SANCTIONED RUSSIAN PROPERTY

---------------------

Personally I think Mode 3 through 5 are true (possibly 2 as well). What do ya’ll think.

Plan to post discussion about “Degrees of Obstruction of Justice” before Comey’s testimony on Thursday.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Sandy » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:02 am

The degrees of collusion between the Trump campaign and the various elements of Russian intelligence that were confirmed to have been involved in interfering in the election are starting to become clear as each new day of hearings turns up more and more evidence, and more names of specific individuals who were involved. Interesting story by both Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow last night, reporting that Trump is having trouble lining up a private law firm to represent him personally during the investigation, because he has stiffed so many lawyers in his business dealings, no one wants to take the risk of doing the work and not getting paid for it.

So far the Russians have received quite a few rewards for their efforts on Trump's behalf. They've been trying for years to neutralize the NATO alliance, and that's been accomplished, not even a year into his presidency. He negotiated a "deal" with the Saudis that essentially gives the Russians top dollar for their crude. He's running interference for them on a military deal that will allow the Russian army and air force to station troops, and house planes, tanks, and missile launchers literally just a few miles from the Israeli border, and deep into the Middle East, much closer to the Kuwaiti and Arabian oil fields, and literally surrounding those of Northern Iraq.

No wonder the Russians were interested.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Jim » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:17 pm

KeithE wrote:Wrt the Russian investigation, I’d like to discuss the various modes of collusion in chronological order.

Mode 1: Long standing Trump/Russia plan to place a US President to Russia’s liking
Say in 2014 or 2015, Putin contacts Trump and suggests that he runs for President and that he will help him by providing hacked emails from Hillary and any other help (e.g. voter registration meddling). They have stayed in near constant contact since that time (doing Modes 2-5)

Unlikely in my view, but let the investigations continue.

Mode 2: Trump/Putin work together to help Trump win Nomination
Trump, encouraged by early prospects, contacts Putin and asks to make a deal. What would Russia want in exchange for election help? Putin replies - change your platform to cut opposition to Russia’s incursion into Ukraine.

Possible, in fact the GOP platform was changed. Republicans adopted pro-Russia stance on Ukraine as Trump officials met with Russian ambassador

Mode 3: Trump hears that Russia has many Hillary emails that could be embarrassing to her.
Trump has associates inquiry into Hillary and associates emails that Russia may have through Wikileaks or their own efforts. He encourages Russia to release more.

Likely, in fact Trump even publicly asked “Russia if you are listening...”. July speech near end of this video.

Mode 4: After election, Trump wants start early by hoping Russia can help in fight against ISIS
Trump has Flynn, maybe others, contact Russia to see if they change tactics to be more anti-ISIS in their Syrian military actions (generally favoring Assad)

Likely and perhaps laudable except for acting as a US representative before inauguration - violates US law - the Foreign Agents Registration Act.

Mode 5: After Obama’s sanctions against Russia and Trump reflexively is against any Obama Action
Trump has Flynn/others (e.g. Kushner) signal to Russia that these sanctions will be negated after he is in power.

Probably true. Flynn was fired for lying about this to Pence and now the closed embassies are being considered to be opened again. TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WEIGHS RETURN OF SANCTIONED RUSSIAN PROPERTY

---------------------

Personally I think Mode 3 through 5 are true (possibly 2 as well). What do ya’ll think.

Plan to post discussion about “Degrees of Obstruction of Justice” before Comey’s testimony on Thursday.

Conspiracy theories are always titillating, like the one about Bush 43 ginning up at least some of the 9/11 carnage. Some people still believe that stuff and will argue about the exact temperature at which steel girders will melt if properly arson-fueled/triggered by agents of sitting presidents, especially republicans. If there's any credibility to be contrived from your offering, it is that collusion with Russians about the election—if any and probably not—was effected in behalf of getting Clinton elected, not Trump, and carried out by the DNC, which, KGB-style, was then blindsided by Putin, far craftier than Hillary or Podesta. Putin genuinely fears Trump, whereas he knew that Clinton would be a continuation of Obama, i.e., an effort toward the downfall of the U.S., for which Obama held profound contempt as often indicated by his denunciation and violation of the U.S. Constitution. Putin would have loved Hillary.

The links are worthless. Surely you don't think Obama should have sent an army to Ukraine over either Crimea or any other alleged invasion, although something that stupid would not have been surprising. As for the July speech, everyone but you, apparently, realized it was simple and well-deserved sarcasm concerning Hillary's imbecilic installation of SECRET servers in her basement or bathroom or wherever, as well as all the emails that just disappeared. Not being a U.S. agent before the inauguration and his installation in the NSA or an agent of another country afterward, Flynn was not accountable to the act you mentioned. Same-old same-old—Trump won and the objective now is to somehow bring him down. Dream on!
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Sandy » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:41 pm

We're not just talking links to media reports here, Jim. We're talking two congressional committees, both controlled by Republicans, an independent investigator, and a mountain of evidence produced by the CIA and the FBI, which are the two best intelligence agencies in the world.

Conspiracy theories are just that, theories. What we have in this particular drama are actual individuals whose talk and action have been identified, recorded, and corroborated. What the Russians did to interfere in the election has been identified, down to specific documents and dates, and that's no theory, that's an established fact. Moving on from there might involve some "conspiracy theory," but again, in this case, specific individuals have been identified, right up to Michael Flynn who has already more or less said he'll squeal if he can stay out of the pokey. About the only speculation right now is how much Trump knew, and when he knew it, or if he was at the center of it all along. The only "conspiracy theory" aspect of this that's left now is whether and to what extend Pence was involved.

I'm sure Jim and Jon will keep us ROFL with all of the inane, absurd right wing crapola they can dig up. Jim's post shows that he knows absolutely nothing about this.
Last edited by Sandy on Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby KeithE » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:49 pm

Jim wrote:
KeithE wrote:Wrt the Russian investigation, I’d like to discuss the various modes of collusion in chronological order.

Mode 1: Long standing Trump/Russia plan to place a US President to Russia’s liking
Say in 2014 or 2015, Putin contacts Trump and suggests that he runs for President and that he will help him by providing hacked emails from Hillary and any other help (e.g. voter registration meddling). They have stayed in near constant contact since that time (doing Modes 2-5)

Unlikely in my view, but let the investigations continue.

Mode 2: Trump/Putin work together to help Trump win Nomination
Trump, encouraged by early prospects, contacts Putin and asks to make a deal. What would Russia want in exchange for election help? Putin replies - change your platform to cut opposition to Russia’s incursion into Ukraine.

Possible, in fact the GOP platform was changed. Republicans adopted pro-Russia stance on Ukraine as Trump officials met with Russian ambassador

Mode 3: Trump hears that Russia has many Hillary emails that could be embarrassing to her.
Trump has associates inquiry into Hillary and associates emails that Russia may have through Wikileaks or their own efforts. He encourages Russia to release more.

Likely, in fact Trump even publicly asked “Russia if you are listening...”. July speech near end of this video.

Mode 4: After election, Trump wants start early by hoping Russia can help in fight against ISIS
Trump has Flynn, maybe others, contact Russia to see if they change tactics to be more anti-ISIS in their Syrian military actions (generally favoring Assad)

Likely and perhaps laudable except for acting as a US representative before inauguration - violates US law - the Foreign Agents Registration Act.

Mode 5: After Obama’s sanctions against Russia and Trump reflexively is against any Obama Action
Trump has Flynn/others (e.g. Kushner) signal to Russia that these sanctions will be negated after he is in power.

Probably true. Flynn was fired for lying about this to Pence and now the closed embassies are being considered to be opened again. TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WEIGHS RETURN OF SANCTIONED RUSSIAN PROPERTY

---------------------

Personally I think Mode 3 through 5 are true (possibly 2 as well). What do ya’ll think.

Plan to post discussion about “Degrees of Obstruction of Justice” before Comey’s testimony on Thursday.

Conspiracy theories are always titillating, like the one about Bush 43 ginning up at least some of the 9/11 carnage. Some people still believe that stuff and will argue about the exact temperature at which steel girders will melt if properly arson-fueled/triggered by agents of sitting presidents, especially republicans. If there's any credibility to be contrived from your offering, it is that collusion with Russians about the election—if any and probably not—was effected in behalf of getting Clinton elected, not Trump, and carried out by the DNC, which, KGB-style, was then blindsided by Putin, far craftier than Hillary or Podesta. Putin genuinely fears Trump, whereas he knew that Clinton would be a continuation of Obama, i.e., an effort toward the downfall of the U.S., for which Obama held profound contempt as often indicated by his denunciation and violation of the U.S. Constitution. Putin would have loved Hillary.

The links are worthless. Surely you don't think Obama should have sent an army to Ukraine over either Crimea or any other alleged invasion, although something that stupid would not have been surprising. As for the July speech, everyone but you, apparently, realized it was simple and well-deserved sarcasm concerning Hillary's imbecilic installation of SECRET servers in her basement or bathroom or wherever, as well as all the emails that just disappeared. Not being a U.S. agent before the inauguration and his installation in the NSA or an agent of another country afterward, Flynn was not accountable to the act you mentioned. Same-old same-old—Trump won and the objective now is to somehow bring him down. Dream on!


Welcome back to the P&PP Forum Jim.

My objective in following the investigations concerning (1) the 9/11 events, (2) the Russian election meddling (already settled, but not scoped out or countered), and (3) degree of Trump-Russian collusions is getting to the FACTS and the TRUTH for America’s sake. If impeachment/removal results, that is a welcome byproduct.

I doubt that (1) will ever be investigated in an open manner by government officials. However (2) and (3) turn out (if in fact they are ever are investigated in an open manner), I will continue to fight many (but not all) of Trump’s policies like tax cuts primarily for the rich, downplaying global warming, trade bans, cuts to social programs in his budget, TrumpCare, jobless “infrastructure" programs (like privatizing air traffic control), ... I approve of Trump's calling out many overpriced military products and his policies toward North Korea (except for releasing classified info about submarine placements).
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Jim » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:31 pm

Sandy wrote:We're not just talking links to media reports here, Jim. We're talking two congressional committees, both controlled by Republicans, an independent investigator, and a mountain of evidence produced by the CIA and the FBI, which are the two best intelligence agencies in the world.

Strange. I've neither seen nor heard of any final reports of the findings of congressional committees, special counsels, the CIA, FBI (the best in the world), government officials, special prosecutors (not appointed yet) or even a WH barber (barbers have all the scoop). So...either I'm slower than some folks or you're a sycophant of the MSM (or maybe clairvoyant), especially CNN, that operate on anonymous sources, "high government officials," or most any blogger with wild imaginations and posts lots of links with a mountain of evidence, or channels Maddow's ghost-writers.

Conspiracy theories are just that, theories.

When in doubt or exercising superior intelligence, always state the obvious.

What we have in this particular drama...

And here I thought the whole thing was/is or at least might be all for real...


The only "conspiracy theory" aspect of this that's left now is whether and to what extend [sic] Pence was involved.

Do you suppose he was/is the bag-man setting up all those off-shore accounts in the Caymans? After all, Trump et alia have to live when the dust settles and Trump has served his 75 years in the pokey.

I'm sure Jim and Jon will keep us ROFL with all of the inane, absurd right wing crapola they can dig up.


Naw...you already have the corner on all that good stuff, which by the way would be perfect for setting up a drama making Shakespeare's stuff look feeble by comparison. Real Truman Capote stuff! Give it a thought...maybe millions involved with your name in lights.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Jon Estes » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:46 am

Jim wrote:
Sandy wrote:We're not just talking links to media reports here, Jim. We're talking two congressional committees, both controlled by Republicans, an independent investigator, and a mountain of evidence produced by the CIA and the FBI, which are the two best intelligence agencies in the world.

Strange. I've neither seen nor heard of any final reports of the findings of congressional committees, special counsels, the CIA, FBI (the best in the world), government officials, special prosecutors (not appointed yet) or even a WH barber (barbers have all the scoop). So...either I'm slower than some folks or you're a sycophant of the MSM (or maybe clairvoyant), especially CNN, that operate on anonymous sources, "high government officials," or most any blogger with wild imaginations and posts lots of links with a mountain of evidence, or channels Maddow's ghost-writers.

Conspiracy theories are just that, theories.

When in doubt or exercising superior intelligence, always state the obvious.

What we have in this particular drama...

And here I thought the whole thing was/is or at least might be all for real...


The only "conspiracy theory" aspect of this that's left now is whether and to what extend [sic] Pence was involved.

Do you suppose he was/is the bag-man setting up all those off-shore accounts in the Caymans? After all, Trump et alia have to live when the dust settles and Trump has served his 75 years in the pokey.

I'm sure Jim and Jon will keep us ROFL with all of the inane, absurd right wing crapola they can dig up.


Naw...you already have the corner on all that good stuff, which by the way would be perfect for setting up a drama making Shakespeare's stuff look feeble by comparison. Real Truman Capote stuff! Give it a thought...maybe millions involved with your name in lights.


Jim - Geraldo found more in Capon'es vault than the few here think is there on Trump.

The reality is, nothing has to be there but they need something to want to discredit him and have to banter about with each other. Along with doing all they can to keep Trump busy with things that have nothing to do with running the country. They are Maxine Waters kind of thinkers...


"No Actual Evidence Yet, But Connecting The Dots Will Lead To Trump Impeachment" - M Waters

Show us the evidence. All the heads of intelligence say there is no evidence but the pursuit goes on.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Sandy » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:44 am

Neither of you are paying attention. First of all, there is evidence, a mountain of it, that establishes Russian interference. Google and get the hearing notes. There are pages and pages of it. Second, there is evidence connecting specific Trump campaign officials to the Russian intelligence agency, and other Russian sources of interference directly. Google the hearing notes. There are at least five campaign officials who have been identified, and issued subpoenas, and two that have asked for immunity, and one for whom Trump obstructed justice to ask the FBI to back off. I'd suggest that you plan some time, sit down in front of your screen, and go through about two weeks worth of Greta VanSustern, Chris Matthews, Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow. They've laid it all out, more or less chronologically, and unless you can come up with something of substance that indicates their facts are incorrect, they're credible references on this subject. I've made that statement before, and have yet to see any challenge to their reporting. Third, there is no evidence that has been presented publicly which mentions Trump as being directly involved, though that is incidental to the issue if his campaign was involved. Coats' refusal to answer questions in the hearing yesterday directly related to Trump's involvement is a legitimate clue as to what might be coming down the pike.

If there's nothing there, then why is the Trump White House going to all of this extended activity to try to undermine Comey, and get out in front of the testimony today? Why not just put the records of the conversations between the five campaign officials and the Russians they were involved with multiple times prior to the election out on the table so everyone can see it? None of the intelligence chiefs say that there is no evidence? That's not true. The two on the stand yesterday simply refused to testify, claiming that the evidence they have is "classified."

Then there's the former intelligence chief Clapper. Video in the link here.

http://globalnews.ca/news/3509198/trump ... committee/

It seems pretty obvious that there are multiple means by which the Republicans, who are in control of all of this, could easily shut it down and make it go away. If there were no evidence, and nothing to it, they'd have done it a long time ago. It's pointless to discuss this with his supporters, who mindlessly shut out any credible source of information and think that this will all just go away because it's not real and it didn't happen.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Jim » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:43 am

Sandy wrote:The degrees of collusion between the Trump campaign and the various elements of Russian intelligence that were confirmed to have been involved in interfering in the election are starting to become clear as each new day of hearings turns up more and more evidence, and more names of specific individuals who were involved.

Why not just give up this effort at breaking Trump? Both the DNI and the FBI have asserted under oath over and over that the so-called collusion never occurred, much less in degrees, whatever that means. Find a new tack. See if there's evidence that Trump beats his wife or (worse) is converting from Presbyterianism to communism or, even worse, the SBC ?

Interesting story by both Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow last night, reporting that Trump is having trouble lining up a private law firm to represent him personally during the investigation, because he has stiffed so many lawyers in his business dealings, no one wants to take the risk of doing the work and not getting paid for it.

The report is that if the brains of Maddow and Hayes were merged, the resulting IQ might approach 65. Come up with the names of the lawyers he has stiffed, since neither of these geniuses has done that, though Maddow may be a 70 on the basis of her tireless investigation indicating that Trump coughed up $28 million in federal taxes in 2005.

So far the Russians have received quite a few rewards for their efforts on Trump's behalf. They've been trying for years to neutralize the NATO alliance, and that's been accomplished, not even a year into his presidency.

Hadn't heard about that! Did Putin take over Latvia and Estonia or maybe Lithuania and is setting up a new Soviet headquarters in Brussels? Do you supposes he took a million troops into Belgium overnight and announced a new world order? Maybe even colluded with Flynn and Capone's great-great nephew?

He negotiated a "deal" with the Saudis that essentially gives the Russians top dollar for their crude.

Last I heard, Germany buys 40% of its oil from Putin. Russia is replete with oil reserves and I doubt the Saudi oil is an issue. I sorta doubt that the Saudis buy oil from Putin at top dollar anyway. They seem to have enough.

He's running interference for them on a military deal that will allow the Russian army and air force to station troops, and house planes, tanks, and missile launchers literally just a few miles from the Israeli border, and deep into the Middle East, much closer to the Kuwaiti and Arabian oil fields, and literally surrounding those of Northern Iraq.

Putin needs no "deal" with anyone anywhere in the Middle East. He just puts troops anywhere he pleases. Obama and McCain know all about that.


No wonder the Russians were interested.


Yeah! Got any more stuff direct from Maddow and Hayes?
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Jon Estes » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:56 am

Sandy wrote:Neither of you are paying attention. First of all, there is evidence, a mountain of it, that establishes Russian interference. Google and get the hearing notes. There are pages and pages of it. Second, there is evidence connecting specific Trump campaign officials to the Russian intelligence agency, and other Russian sources of interference directly. Google the hearing notes. There are at least five campaign officials who have been identified, and issued subpoenas, and two that have asked for immunity, and one for whom Trump obstructed justice to ask the FBI to back off. I'd suggest that you plan some time, sit down in front of your screen, and go through about two weeks worth of Greta VanSustern, Chris Matthews, Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow. They've laid it all out, more or less chronologically, and unless you can come up with something of substance that indicates their facts are incorrect, they're credible references on this subject. I've made that statement before, and have yet to see any challenge to their reporting. Third, there is no evidence that has been presented publicly which mentions Trump as being directly involved, though that is incidental to the issue if his campaign was involved. Coats' refusal to answer questions in the hearing yesterday directly related to Trump's involvement is a legitimate clue as to what might be coming down the pike.

If there's nothing there, then why is the Trump White House going to all of this extended activity to try to undermine Comey, and get out in front of the testimony today? Why not just put the records of the conversations between the five campaign officials and the Russians they were involved with multiple times prior to the election out on the table so everyone can see it? None of the intelligence chiefs say that there is no evidence? That's not true. The two on the stand yesterday simply refused to testify, claiming that the evidence they have is "classified."

Nope. They said they could not respond in open session

Then there's the former intelligence chief Clapper. Video in the link here.

http://globalnews.ca/news/3509198/trump ... committee/

The man who earlier said no evidence?

It seems pretty obvious that there are multiple means by which the Republicans, who are in control of all of this, could easily shut it down and make it go away. If there were no evidence, and nothing to it, they'd have done it a long time ago. It's pointless to discuss this with his supporters, who mindlessly shut out any credible source of information and think that this will all just go away because it's not real and it didn't happen.


Hillary was in collusion with Russia and it ended up not helping her. Russia wanted her to win to get more platonium.

No need to chase Trump. Don't need any more evidence than Russia interfered. Just need to say Russia interfered.

Obama and Hillary did it.

Might as well chase that, it makes as much sense as chasing Trump.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Sandy » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:10 am

Well, Jon, given that Trump has done everything that was on Putin's agenda in less than 150 days in office, and has accomplished absolutely nothing else, including his long list of promises, I'd say that at least gives investigators reason to look into it. Of course, as the investigation has continued, it has turned up considerable evidence (watch the videos and read the article I posted) of both Russian interference, and Trump campaign collusion. So far there are five individuals who served in the Trump campaign, including two of the campaign managers, who have been named as having turned up in the evidence that has been gathered, who were all in contact with the Russians involved in the disruption. Up to this point, no evidence has been presented in testimony, or released, that indicates Trump's direct involvement, but that's really immaterial at this point because whether he had direct contact with the Russians or not, he certainly had contact with his campaign officers who had plenty of contact that they failed to report according to law. But collusion isn't his only problem at this point. There is evidence, plenty of it, that he tried to use his influence to get the investigation shut down, at least on Flynn's behalf. Whether he colluded with the Russians or not, he tried to get the investigation shut down at least by putting pressure on the FBI, and clearly through the justice department.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Sandy » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:18 am

Jim wrote:
Sandy wrote:The degrees of collusion between the Trump campaign and the various elements of Russian intelligence that were confirmed to have been involved in interfering in the election are starting to become clear as each new day of hearings turns up more and more evidence, and more names of specific individuals who were involved.

Why not just give up this effort at breaking Trump? Both the DNI and the FBI have asserted under oath over and over that the so-called collusion never occurred, much less in degrees, whatever that means. Find a new tack. See if there's evidence that Trump beats his wife or (worse) is converting from Presbyterianism to communism or, even worse, the SBC ?

Interesting story by both Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow last night, reporting that Trump is having trouble lining up a private law firm to represent him personally during the investigation, because he has stiffed so many lawyers in his business dealings, no one wants to take the risk of doing the work and not getting paid for it.

The report is that if the brains of Maddow and Hayes were merged, the resulting IQ might approach 65. Come up with the names of the lawyers he has stiffed, since neither of these geniuses has done that, though Maddow may be a 70 on the basis of her tireless investigation indicating that Trump coughed up $28 million in federal taxes in 2005.

So far the Russians have received quite a few rewards for their efforts on Trump's behalf. They've been trying for years to neutralize the NATO alliance, and that's been accomplished, not even a year into his presidency.

Hadn't heard about that! Did Putin take over Latvia and Estonia or maybe Lithuania and is setting up a new Soviet headquarters in Brussels? Do you supposes he took a million troops into Belgium overnight and announced a new world order? Maybe even colluded with Flynn and Capone's great-great nephew?

He negotiated a "deal" with the Saudis that essentially gives the Russians top dollar for their crude.

Last I heard, Germany buys 40% of its oil from Putin. Russia is replete with oil reserves and I doubt the Saudi oil is an issue. I sorta doubt that the Saudis buy oil from Putin at top dollar anyway. They seem to have enough.

He's running interference for them on a military deal that will allow the Russian army and air force to station troops, and house planes, tanks, and missile launchers literally just a few miles from the Israeli border, and deep into the Middle East, much closer to the Kuwaiti and Arabian oil fields, and literally surrounding those of Northern Iraq.

Putin needs no "deal" with anyone anywhere in the Middle East. He just puts troops anywhere he pleases. Obama and McCain know all about that.


No wonder the Russians were interested.


Yeah! Got any more stuff direct from Maddow and Hayes?


What's your source Jim? Yeah, thought so. :lol:
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Jim » Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:15 pm

As happens often in being retired again, I watched the big congressional event today, Comey’s requested Senate appearance to try to salvage his reputation, assuming he feels he’s been had. I wish he hadn’t been fired but the hearing today did not help him; rather, he squirmed at times and made himself look bad, such as when he admitted that he gave his famous memos (after waking in the dead of night worrying about possible tapes) to a law-professor friend so the friend could LEAK them to the MSM and thus neutralize potential damage to his side of the “story.” More importantly, he made clear that the special counsel would get to the bottom of the mess, if one actually exists. This means that the trail will inevitably lead back to Hillary, as it did today, when even the infamous “tarmac tete-a-tete” between Obama’s AG and Big Bubba was mentioned and AG Lynch’s insistence that the term “investigation” concerning Hillary be referenced as a “matter,” instead, even though the INVESTIGATION conclusively incriminating Clinton had just been concluded. So…the plot thickens.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Sandy » Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:33 pm

Here are some sources, from several different perspectives.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/08/us/p ... .html?_r=0
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN18Z0HC
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... e7c19578e9
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politic ... ng-n769941

Quite a contrast to Jim's perception, but that's predictable, since he never lets facts interfere with his analysis. Sounds like he hit the wrong button and was watching the cartoon channel. :lol:
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Jim » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:42 pm

Sandy wrote:Here are some sources, from several different perspectives.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/08/us/p ... .html?_r=0
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN18Z0HC
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... e7c19578e9
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politic ... ng-n769941

Quite a contrast to Jim's perception, but that's predictable, since he never lets facts interfere with his analysis. Sounds like he hit the wrong button and was watching the cartoon channel. :lol:

You'll have to pardon me for still laughing. I checked your links, discovered the sources, so didn't bother to read. The NY Times, Washington Post and NBC News were just part of Hillary's unsuccessful propaganda machine, and you could have added links to CNN, ABC, MSNBC, and Comedy Central to get some other parts of the UNSUCCESSFUL machine. Try three aspirin (but not on an empty stomach) this time and take a valium. Maybe then you will recover from PTESD. Or, go to the ER and request a therapeutic four-year coma.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Sandy » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:42 pm

Jim wrote:
Sandy wrote:Here are some sources, from several different perspectives.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/08/us/p ... .html?_r=0
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN18Z0HC
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... e7c19578e9
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politic ... ng-n769941

Quite a contrast to Jim's perception, but that's predictable, since he never lets facts interfere with his analysis. Sounds like he hit the wrong button and was watching the cartoon channel. :lol:

You'll have to pardon me for still laughing. I checked your links, discovered the sources, so didn't bother to read. The NY Times, Washington Post and NBC News were just part of Hillary's unsuccessful propaganda machine, and you could have added links to CNN, ABC, MSNBC, and Comedy Central to get some other parts of the UNSUCCESSFUL machine. Try three aspirin (but not on an empty stomach) this time and take a valium. Maybe then you will recover from PTESD. Or, go to the ER and request a therapeutic four-year coma.


Your opinion. Prove it. Confirmation. One substantiation, one piece of evidence that these sources are wrong. Otherwise, you're just flapping your lips and gnashing your jaws. Put on your red "Make America Great Again" cap and your mind shuts down. I'll just ignore your crap until you're ready for an intelligent discussion, if that ever happens. :lol: Put on that Donald Trump "Make America Great Again" hat and your brains stop working.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby William Thornton » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:39 am

Ummm...I'm betting Sandy will not ignore Jim. Just a wild prediction.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Jim » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:38 am

William Thornton wrote:Ummm...I'm betting Sandy will not ignore Jim. Just a wild prediction.

No…not surprisingly, having run out of the patience for intelligent discussion and totally mired in un-relievable disappointment in the election (as well as “Maddow Madness”), he has pronounced chinmoku and I can honor that. However, while I have at times gnashed my teeth (such as when Trump tweets most anything or says 50% of what he says), I have never even tried, consciously or unconsciously, to gnash my jaws and cringe at that kind of suspected torture. I wonder what a chronic chapped-lips sufferer might endure when in the process of flapping, and that also gives me the creeps.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby KeithE » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:46 pm

Today the emails have been released by Donald Jr himself, not just some unidentified “source”. Read it all. Those emails establish at a minimum an intent/hope to collude with Russian to help the Trump campaign. Note we don’t know how Don Jr may have doctored the email chain or how complete the email chain is. Nor do we know what the Russians delivered.

“Emin" is Emin Agalarov (a Russian pop star involved in the Miss Universe event in Moscow (run by Trump, Sr.) https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/who-is-emin-agalarov/533127/

“Aras" is Agalarov (Emin’s father and a billionaire “oligarch” with close ties to Putin and some ties to Donald Sr.) https://themoscowproject.org/the-players.html?playername=Aras%20Agalarov

Recall the modes of collusion I outlined in the lead off post. I’ll repeat Mode 2.

Mode 2: Trump/Putin work together to help Trump win Nomination
Trump, encouraged by early prospects, contacts Putin and asks to make a deal. What would Russia want in exchange for election help? Putin replies - change your platform to cut opposition to Russia’s incursion into Ukraine.

Possible, in fact the GOP platform was changed.


Well it seems that Mode 2 is true (although it is not clear who initiated the collusion). And we don’t know the degree of Hillary dirt delivered (beyond WikiLeaks trove of emails) or what other aspects of collusion may have been in play (e.g. easing of Magnitski sanctions). But the willingness to collude with Russia was clearly in play within the Trump campaign. It is known that the GOP platform was changed to support Russia in their fight with Ukraine. And that Trump Sr. called for 30,000 more Clinton emails to be released, perhaps asking Russia to come through more fully with their end of the “deal”.

Still don’t think Mode 1 (Long standing Russia/Trump collusion back in 2014-2015 timeframe) is established. But Modes 2-5 are now established.

I’ll let the lawyers figure out the extent of law breaking involved. However, politically is should be the deathblow of the Trump presidency (if it already is not effectively dead nationally and internationally).

There may have been efforts by the DNC to get Ukraine’s help for Hillary. Ukraine Attempted to Help Hillary Win by Sabotaging Trump and Colluding with the DNC. But there is much less evidence to support this - consider the source - The DailyWire.

Personally, I think we should declare a “Mis-Election” (akin to a mis-trial), get new candidates, and hold a re-election. Yeah I know that is not Constitutional. But times change and Amendments possible.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Sandy » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:31 pm

Looks like, with each passing day, the evidence of collusion grows, inside the family, and now involving all three of his campaign managers. Rachel Maddow at MSNBC doing an excellent job of simply laying out facts.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:33 am

This forum is no longer a political discussion forum but a conspiracy theory forum.

What a shame.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby William Thornton » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:20 am

It's not a shame that we get a steady diet of this here but that Dems and libs, msm and others, have staked their future on this. Hil and the dnc were dishonest, pathetic, and ran a terrible campaign against the weakest candidate in generations. Who conspired to do that?
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby KeithE » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:38 am

Jon Estes wrote:This forum is no longer a political discussion forum but a conspiracy theory forum.

What a shame.

Facts turn against you and all of a sudden this forum becomes a "conspiracy theory forum” in the most derogatory sense of that word.

Why not open yourself to the truth as it becomes disclosed? It s a shame if you do not do so.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:52 am

KeithE wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:This forum is no longer a political discussion forum but a conspiracy theory forum.

What a shame.

Facts turn against you and all of a sudden this forum becomes a "conspiracy theory forum” in the most derogatory sense of that word.

Why not open yourself to the truth as it becomes disclosed? It s a shame if you do not do so.


Keith

What truth? From the news being presented, what laws did DTJ break? G9ve facts or what was done wrong. Not what we think someone should not have done?

Maybe if Trump threw his hand up and said in a belittling tone... No one died, what difference does it make now... the left would see how the stuff they are making accusations of really are not anything done illegally. Maybe they can say it wasn't Russia but a video... things would be found acceptable.

Little facts in all the speculation... but that's conspiracy at its core.
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Re: Degrees of Collusion

Postby Sandy » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:02 am

Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:This forum is no longer a political discussion forum but a conspiracy theory forum.

What a shame.

Facts turn against you and all of a sudden this forum becomes a "conspiracy theory forum” in the most derogatory sense of that word.

Why not open yourself to the truth as it becomes disclosed? It s a shame if you do not do so.


Keith

What truth? From the news being presented, what laws did DTJ break? G9ve facts or what was done wrong. Not what we think someone should not have done?

Maybe if Trump threw his hand up and said in a belittling tone... No one died, what difference does it make now... the left would see how the stuff they are making accusations of really are not anything done illegally. Maybe they can say it wasn't Russia but a video... things would be found acceptable.

Little facts in all the speculation... but that's conspiracy at its core.


If that's what you believe, Jon, then I need to let you in on a real estate deal. I'm selling my beachfront in my home state of Arizona, and I'll throw in that toll bridge in San Francisco for free.

There are a lot of clues about what Mueller's investigation must be uncovering. Even White House staffers are lawyered up. Trump Junior's recent little faux pas is the typical pattern the Trump administration has taken regarding every piece of evidence of collusion that has turned up so far, first to deny it happened, then to explain it away, then, when the explanation is proven false, come up with another and another. They obviously have unlimited contempt for his followers, to feed this kind of bull in the face of evidence to the contrary, and maybe some of his followers are either blinded by admiration, or mindless and unaware, but it is becoming clear that an increasing number of Republicans in Congress are not, especially the ones sitting in on the committee hearings.
Last edited by Sandy on Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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