Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

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Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby KeithE » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:33 pm

1. In 2015 Marco Rubio Quietly Undermined Affordable Care Act
There was a provision in the ACA called "risk-corridors" where heath insurers were given funds if at the end of the year, there were too many sick people and they ended up with a negative cash flow over all of their state markets. That happened in 2013, 2014, 2015 while maintaining Obama’s annual reduction in the annual deficit (see ** below)

But Marco Rubio’s 2015 bill curtailed that for 2016 to 13% of what it was in 2015. He claimed it was a “bailout” for the health insurers, and it was, but that enabled many people to be covered. After that bill, the insurers dropped out of many counties markets in 2016. Particularly hard hit were the smaller plans in smaller counties; thus the reduction to having only "1/3 of the counties having more than 1 plan” - a Republican talking point. It killed competition, but the Republicans had another talking point about ObamaCare being in a “death spiral” with no competition. Now some insurers stay in those now marginally profitable counties but only by increasing premiums (one in Arizona went up 122%) and/or deductibles. Thus the Republicans had another talking point - "premiums are skyrocketing”.

Truth is all three talking points (in quotes above) were caused by the Rubio Bill.

2. Since Trump’s inauguration, he (or perhaps Price) directed that HHS take down ObamaCare registration online. That ought to be illegal while a law is in effect; but they did it. Read Sabotage' : Trump administration reportedly kills Obamacare ads for HealthCare.gov

Trump also gave an Executive Order within 5 days of taking office negating the teeth of the mandates. Read Trump’s Executive Order On Obamacare Means Everything And Does Nothing. That did not change the execution of ObamaCare but it dis say to the young & healthy do not get insurance, you will probably not have any penalty (money needed to make ObamaCare healthy).

------------------

So we have Republicans sabotaging ObamaCare. Truth is the GOP plan without mandates to the young (who think they will not get sick) will both increase the ratio of sick older people in the plans (and thus increasing premiums and making less people able to pay) as well as upping the number of people showing up in ER (thus increasing costs even to those who have group plans). I suspect the GOP Plan will result in the "death spiral” (but I’ll admit that the CBO has said that both plans would be “stable”)

So much to more to say about this - e.g. listen to : ObamaCare is Not in a Death Spiral.

But the real best approach is a single payer plan like every other OECD country who do heat care for half the cost with better outcomes (as I've said many times before). Don’t tell me it can’t work.

------------------
** The peak annual deficit was in 2009. It was a Bush budget with the big increase from 2008 being caused by the deregulation-caused recession. Such deregulation fever could easily take us down again. But that is another subject and it is dinnertime.

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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby Jim » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:02 pm

The Obama/Gruber cabal sabotaged Obamacare from the beginning. It was built on subterfuge and despicable deceit. The employer mandate has never been enforced though it was due in 2014 but would have killed Obamacare long before now if Obama had honored his oath. The budget will remain in deficit perhaps forever, no matter which party is in power. Obama believed in printing money, the answer to all debts. As the Rev. Dr. (God **** America) Wright would have it, the chickens have long since come home to roost. This is called “kicking the can down the road.” A reasonable answer might be to have all citizens pay into a program like Medicare (automatic credits toward health problems) that can be exploited at any time of need, with the suggestion that ancillary insurance be bought in addition. I am blessed with Medicare, for which I paid while working but as a blue-collar pensioner realize that about 25% to 30% of my income is still paid out for insurance, mostly medical. The new healthcare act will please few, if any, but it at least will be read before a vote is taken, something that did not happen in 2010 by midnight on Christmas Eve.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby KeithE » Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:44 pm

Jim wrote: A reasonable answer might be to have all citizens pay into a program like Medicare (automatic credits toward health problems) that can be exploited at any time of need, with the suggestion that ancillary insurance be bought in addition. I am blessed with Medicare, for which I paid while working but as a blue-collar pensioner realize that about 25% to 30% of my income is still paid out for insurance, mostly medical. The new healthcare act will please few, if any


I can agree with your positive suggestion printed above.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby Sandy » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:42 am

Well, let's see. It allowed 30 million more Americans to access a health care system that has increasingly become the domain of those more interested in profits than patients, and a philosophy that has shifted health care from a basic human right connected directly to the sanctity of human life to a commodity to be valued to see how much money people are willing to pay to relieve their pain and preserve their quality of life. It kept the cost of insurance premiums from outpacing inflation by more than 10% annually, and gee, even if you're only interested in the bottom line, every insurer that has participated in Obama care has made record profits over the past seven years.

The problems that have developed are the same ones that would develop in any government attempt to regulate health care finance reform, there are too many nuances and interests that distract from creating a program that simply states objectives and puts regulations in place to achieve the objectives. Initially, the intentions were good, and were centered around the interests of the individual American and his or her health care needs, while the interests of insurers, and corporations that now own most health care facilities, which are profits, not patients, were secondary to that. Conservatives and Republicans can do all the lip flapping they want to about being champions of the sanctity of human life, as long as most of them in Congress can easily be bought and paid for by bribes from insurance providers and health care corporations, they aren't champions of anything but greed. Come up with a system that puts patient care first, and I'll believe it when I see it. What the Republicans have created at the present time is the most draconian, evil, despicable, corrupt plan we've ever seen.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby Jim » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:07 pm

Since campaign promises mean little or nothing anyway and everyone understands this, the repubs could just sit on their hands for a year while Obamacare completely disintegrates. The insurance companies would all be out of it by then and premiums and copays so high that the ACA would simply implode, thus forcing the Congress—especially the democrats—to get on board or let the country drown in its own self-inflicted pain. The new plan will not be perfect but it will be constitutional, meaning that SCOTUS Chief Roberts, the actual villain (illegal fine just a tax? Stupid!) will be properly reprimanded for making the unread ACA possible. Even Justice Kennedy thought he was NUTS. Collecting from citizens in real time the money for use in real time (those personal accounts as per Rand Paul actually guaranteed just like Medicare) would make sense. Everyone in the country is not sick at the same time and millions of folks not until they’re as old as the hills, like me. Problem: Nearly half of households pay no taxes, although they could be required to pay, at least the ones with a wage-earner, to pay up, just like with Medicare, whether they like it or not. Insurance companies could compete for the trade in additional and necessary self-covering insurance and perhaps help drive down medical costs. Last year, on two separate occasions, I spent six hours in the hospital—total cost about $65,000, not counting doctors’ payments. Common sense has no place in government.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby KeithE » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:31 pm

Jim wrote: Insurance companies could compete for the trade in additional and necessary self-covering insurance and perhaps help drive down medical costs. Last year, on two separate occasions, I spent six hours in the hospital—total cost about $65,000, not counting doctors’ payments. Common sense has no place in government.


Health insurers will not voluntarily “drive down medical costs”. They are eager to take their piece of every Dr visit, in-office treatment/test, hospital stays, out-patient treatment, etc.

It was not government that has your $65,000 bill. It was the hospitals.

Government must limit treatment to that required and monitor costs of those treatments. As is, the number treatments and the cost of those treatments are not curtailed in any way - the insurance companies love the volume and costs increases (their profits soar as do their “administrative costs” and their executive salaries). Same goes for Big Pharma.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby Sandy » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:08 pm

I wouldn't say that campaign promises don't mean anything. Trump promised a health care program to replace the ACA that would be less expensive than Obamacare, and would guarantee universal coverage. His supporters bought that line, and now many of them are shrieking at their representatives and senators in town hall meetings as the new Republican proposal leaves most of them with less than they had, the orange haired buffoon's constant spewing of "believe me" notwithstanding. The wheel doesn't have to be reinvented to come up with a workable plan, but that requires focusing on the health of individual Americans as a priority, and a government setting rules that apply equally to everyone, including regulating and limiting the profiteers. Bottom line, if the Trump/Ryan/Republican plan, which is really nothing more than a way to give tax breaks to the wealthy, doesn't provide what the buffoon promised, it's not going to be pretty.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby JE Pettibone » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:58 pm

Sandy wrote:I wouldn't say that campaign promises don't mean anything. Trump promised a health care program to replace the ACA that would be less expensive than Obamacare, and would guarantee universal coverage. His supporters bought that line, and now many of them are shrieking at their representatives and senators in town hall meetings as the new Republican proposal leaves most of them with less than they had, the orange haired buffoon's constant spewing of "believe me" notwithstanding. The wheel doesn't have to be reinvented to come up with a workable plan, but that requires focusing on the health of individual Americans as a priority, and a government setting rules that apply equally to everyone, including regulating and limiting the profiteers. Bottom line, if the Trump/Ryan/Republican plan, which is really nothing more than a way to give tax breaks to the wealthy, doesn't provide what the buffoon promised, it's not going to be pretty.



Ed: Sandy, how are you defining "the wealthy"?
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby Sandy » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:12 am

JE Pettibone wrote:
Sandy wrote:I wouldn't say that campaign promises don't mean anything. Trump promised a health care program to replace the ACA that would be less expensive than Obamacare, and would guarantee universal coverage. His supporters bought that line, and now many of them are shrieking at their representatives and senators in town hall meetings as the new Republican proposal leaves most of them with less than they had, the orange haired buffoon's constant spewing of "believe me" notwithstanding. The wheel doesn't have to be reinvented to come up with a workable plan, but that requires focusing on the health of individual Americans as a priority, and a government setting rules that apply equally to everyone, including regulating and limiting the profiteers. Bottom line, if the Trump/Ryan/Republican plan, which is really nothing more than a way to give tax breaks to the wealthy, doesn't provide what the buffoon promised, it's not going to be pretty.



Ed: Sandy, how are you defining "the wealthy"?


The 1% who will be getting more than half the money in the proposed tax cut scheme.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby KeithE » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:00 pm

Sandy wrote:
JE Pettibone wrote:
Sandy wrote:I wouldn't say that campaign promises don't mean anything. Trump promised a health care program to replace the ACA that would be less expensive than Obamacare, and would guarantee universal coverage. His supporters bought that line, and now many of them are shrieking at their representatives and senators in town hall meetings as the new Republican proposal leaves most of them with less than they had, the orange haired buffoon's constant spewing of "believe me" notwithstanding. The wheel doesn't have to be reinvented to come up with a workable plan, but that requires focusing on the health of individual Americans as a priority, and a government setting rules that apply equally to everyone, including regulating and limiting the profiteers. Bottom line, if the Trump/Ryan/Republican plan, which is really nothing more than a way to give tax breaks to the wealthy, doesn't provide what the buffoon promised, it's not going to be pretty.



Ed: Sandy, how are you defining "the wealthy"?


The 1% who will be getting more than half the money in the proposed tax cut scheme.


A tax of 0.9% of income above $200K/yr ($250K if filing jointly) that was part of how ObamaCare was funded is being eliminated in this GOP Plan. Also these households had to pay a 3.8% tax on their investment gains. That too is being eliminated by the GOP Plan (never let a chance to help the wealthy go by). Together this gives “tax breaks” of $384B over 10 years reducing revenues and thus increasing the deficit.
Source:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/03/07/the-massive-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-inside-the-gop-health-care-plan/?utm_term=.b267516d1652

Also corporations under ObamaCare could only deduct salaries below $500K in their tax return (or equivalently in their profit statement) but now can deduct all salaries often in the 10’sM. Not sure how much this amounts to, but a quick estimate on my part is $1440B over 10 years (400,000 jobs over $1M/yr, avg salary $2M over $500K, 18% average corporate tax rate, 10 years). And there is an additional tax break just for the health insurers of $145B over ten years.

These sources of funds will make the GOP Plan considerably less solvent with the benefits going to high income people and big corporations. Despite this the CBO estimated that the AHCA would save $337B over ten years over the ACA mostly claiming some help from "competitive market forces”. Why not keep these taxes? It would save about $2T in the national deficit now approaching $20T and barely affect the rich or the corporations who have more profits than anytime in history.

------------------ looking at Sandy’s claim in red above -----------

Generally “wealthy” refers one’s accumulated net worth not yearly income. But they go together. So I'll discuss the 1% claim in that context.

The 1% refers to:
To be certified as a one-percenter, you’ll need to bring in even more income each year. According to statistical data from the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), the top 1% had an adjusted gross income of $465,626 or higher for the 2014 tax year. The Washington Center for Equitable Growth put the average household income for this group at $1,260,508 for 2014.

Source: http://www.investopedia.com/news/how-much-income-puts-you-top-1-5-10/

The 5% refers to:
The top 5% of households earn an annual income of $214,462 or higher, according to the Census Bureau. That’s nearly four times the 2015 nationwide median household income of $56,516. The average income among those in the top 5% climbed to $350,870.

Source: http://www.investopedia.com/news/how-much-income-puts-you-top-1-5-10/

So about 5% will be relieved of the 0.9% tax. Now 4% (5%-1%) times $350,870 is a little more than 1% times $1,260,508. That means what Sandy said in red above slightly overstates the case (not too badly so), if he was referring to 1% income wise. His statement may be correct for top 1% “wealthy”, but I doubt it since many highly wealthy are retired.

But that is getting really technical. His point (that the wealthy is getting help by the GOP Plan) is well taken.

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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby KeithE » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:26 pm

OK now that the GOP plan is dead, we have to be on watch about Trump/Price/Congress doubling down on sabotaging the ACA.

Read my opening post about how they have already been doing so. But now watch for congress to eliminate the subsidies to the health insurers that help keep deductibles/copays down fro low income people (something that just irks Republicans). Read ObamaCare Survives: Now What excerpt:

Obamacare is not going anywhere, at least not this year. Insurers have signed contracts with the exchanges to provide coverage throughout 2017. This means the roughly 12.2 million people who have signed up for policies shouldn't see any major changes. Their premiums should remain the same, as should their subsidies as long as their income doesn't fluctuate.

A possible wrench in the system would be if Congress decides not to fund the law's cost-sharing subsidies, which help reduce deductibles and co-pays for low-income consumers. House Republicans hate these payments, which are made to insurance companies, and even successfully sued the Obama administration to try to stop them.

Now, of course, the GOP controls the White House, and lawmakers have yet to agree to fund the subsidies. If they don't, some insurers may take this as a breach of contract and try to drop out immediately.


Watch for actions to diminish Federal funding for Medicaid or add costly regulations for Medicaid.

I hope I’m wrong but we should be on the watch.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby Jim » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:04 pm

KeithE wrote:OK now that the GOP plan is dead, we have to be on watch about Trump/Price/Congress doubling down on sabotaging the ACA.

Read my opening post about how they have already been doing so. But now watch for congress to eliminate the subsidies to the health insurers that help keep deductibles/copays down fro low income people (something that just irks Republicans). Read ObamaCare Survives: Now What excerpt:

Obamacare is not going anywhere, at least not this year. Insurers have signed contracts with the exchanges to provide coverage throughout 2017. This means the roughly 12.2 million people who have signed up for policies shouldn't see any major changes. Their premiums should remain the same, as should their subsidies as long as their income doesn't fluctuate.

A possible wrench in the system would be if Congress decides not to fund the law's cost-sharing subsidies, which help reduce deductibles and co-pays for low-income consumers. House Republicans hate these payments, which are made to insurance companies, and even successfully sued the Obama administration to try to stop them.

Now, of course, the GOP controls the White House, and lawmakers have yet to agree to fund the subsidies. If they don't, some insurers may take this as a breach of contract and try to drop out immediately.


Watch for actions to diminish Federal funding for Medicaid or add costly regulations for Medicaid.

I hope I’m wrong but we should be on the watch.


Since you're in "I told you so mode," this is my blog of 18 March:
The Obama/Gruber cabal sabotaged Obamacare from the beginning. It was built on subterfuge and despicable deceit. The employer mandate has never been enforced though it was due in 2014 but would have killed Obamacare long before now if Obama had honored his oath. The budget will remain in deficit perhaps forever, no matter which party is in power. Obama believed in printing money, the answer to all debts. As the Rev. Dr. (God **** America) Wright would have it, the chickens have long since come home to roost. This is called “kicking the can down the road.” A reasonable answer might be to have all citizens pay into a program like Medicare (automatic credits toward health problems) that can be exploited at any time of need, with the suggestion that ancillary insurance be bought in addition. I am blessed with Medicare, for which I paid while working but as a blue-collar pensioner realize that about 25% to 30% of my income is still paid out for insurance, mostly medical. The new healthcare act will please few, if any, but it at least will be read before a vote is taken, something that did not happen in 2010 by midnight on Christmas Eve.


A main difference between the Obamacare bill and the one just pulled back is simply that the current bill has been read by the lawmakers, whereas by their own admission, the dems (no republican voted for O-care) who voted (or did something technical at Christmas Eve midnight 2010) had not read the O-care bill, not that they could have understood it anyway. By his own admission, the MIT guru Gruber (paid some $400,000) purposely wrote the O-care bill in such a way that obfuscation would deny the deplorables the ability to understand it, account having weak if any minds. Obama probably did not read the bill but made sure that the most important LIES were in it. Pelosi and crowd should have welcomed the chance to deep-six it before it became embarrassingly part of the dust-pin of history. Trump, by simply enforcing the ignored employer-mandate of 2014 could make the embarrassment even greater...but why bother, since Schumer, Pelosi and their cadre now own it? The current non-defeat is merely the precursor of the eventual need to fix the mess, which was designed to fail in the first place, with Hillary's now-lost veto power the governing agent toward driving the system into socialized medicine.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby KeithE » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:28 pm

Jim wrote:
KeithE wrote:OK now that the GOP plan is dead, we have to be on watch about Trump/Price/Congress doubling down on sabotaging the ACA.

Read my opening post about how they have already been doing so. But now watch for congress to eliminate the subsidies to the health insurers that help keep deductibles/copays down fro low income people (something that just irks Republicans). Read ObamaCare Survives: Now What excerpt:

Obamacare is not going anywhere, at least not this year. Insurers have signed contracts with the exchanges to provide coverage throughout 2017. This means the roughly 12.2 million people who have signed up for policies shouldn't see any major changes. Their premiums should remain the same, as should their subsidies as long as their income doesn't fluctuate.

A possible wrench in the system would be if Congress decides not to fund the law's cost-sharing subsidies, which help reduce deductibles and co-pays for low-income consumers. House Republicans hate these payments, which are made to insurance companies, and even successfully sued the Obama administration to try to stop them.

Now, of course, the GOP controls the White House, and lawmakers have yet to agree to fund the subsidies. If they don't, some insurers may take this as a breach of contract and try to drop out immediately.


Watch for actions to diminish Federal funding for Medicaid or add costly regulations for Medicaid.

I hope I’m wrong but we should be on the watch.


Since you're in "I told you so mode," this is my blog of 18 March:
The Obama/Gruber cabal sabotaged Obamacare from the beginning. It was built on subterfuge and despicable deceit. The employer mandate has never been enforced though it was due in 2014 but would have killed Obamacare long before now if Obama had honored his oath. The budget will remain in deficit perhaps forever, no matter which party is in power. Obama believed in printing money, the answer to all debts. As the Rev. Dr. (God **** America) Wright would have it, the chickens have long since come home to roost. This is called “kicking the can down the road.” A reasonable answer might be to have all citizens pay into a program like Medicare (automatic credits toward health problems) that can be exploited at any time of need, with the suggestion that ancillary insurance be bought in addition. I am blessed with Medicare, for which I paid while working but as a blue-collar pensioner realize that about 25% to 30% of my income is still paid out for insurance, mostly medical. The new healthcare act will please few, if any, but it at least will be read before a vote is taken, something that did not happen in 2010 by midnight on Christmas Eve.


A main difference between the Obamacare bill and the one just pulled back is simply that the current bill has been read by the lawmakers, whereas by their own admission, the dems (no republican voted for O-care) who voted (or did something technical at Christmas Eve midnight 2010) had not read the O-care bill, not that they could have understood it anyway. By his own admission, the MIT guru Gruber (paid some $400,000) purposely wrote the O-care bill in such a way that obfuscation would deny the deplorables the ability to understand it, account having weak if any minds. Obama probably did not read the bill but made sure that the most important LIES were in it. Pelosi and crowd should have welcomed the chance to deep-six it before it became embarrassingly part of the dust-pin of history. Trump, by simply enforcing the ignored employer-mandate of 2014 could make the embarrassment even greater...but why bother, since Schumer, Pelosi and their cadre now own it? The current non-defeat is merely the precursor of the eventual need to fix the mess, which was designed to fail in the first place, with Hillary's now-lost veto power the governing agent toward driving the system into socialized medicine.


Several factual errors in what Jim has said above.

1. The employer mandate/penalties is still enforced (for companies over 50 people) as is the individual mandate despite of Trump 5th Executive Order telling small businesses and those who might not sign up in effect to ‘don't worry I will not ask for penalties'. Is the IRS Enforcing the Obamacare Employer Mandate? dated 3/9/17 in the midst of the Repeal and Replace debate.

Now, earlier this week House Republicans introduced proposed legislation to repeal and replace certain aspects of Obamacare. If enacted as drafted, the bill would eliminate both the individual and employer mandates and associated tax penalties. We are keeping our eyes on that proposed legislation, but it’s got a long way to go before it becomes law, and already faces strong opposition. We cannot pin our actions to it quite yet.

My advice to you at this point is this: Unless and until any legislation is finalized, stay the current course, and continue to comply with ACA employer reporting requirements and the employer shared responsibility mandate as if nothing has changed (because, in all honesty, it hasn’t). The IRS has given no indication that it is planning to not enforce either mandate, so you should proceed as if penalties for non-compliance will be issued.


2. It is true that the employer mandate was delayed by the Republicans in 2014 which in itself increased the number of uninsured and the premiums (all so that they could holler about ObamaCare). Your claim that ObamaCare would have fared worse if the employer mandate were established earlier is pure speculation and at odds with the obvious fact that the federal revenues would have ben enhanced by the penalties. The employer mandate was started on Jan 1, 2016. Read this.

3. The 2010 ObamaCare took 1 year to write and any congressperson who wanted to read it could do so at several stages - it was large, that's why they have staffs. A draft was started to March 2009, passed the House on Nov 7,2017 (1 Republican voted for it( passed the Senate on Dec 24, 2009 (0 Repugnants voted for it), and it was signed into March 23, 2010. The current GOP plan (AHCA) was a rush job (17 days) that even some Republicans could not look at the week before the scheduled vote. Read this.

4. It is true that the National Deficit has increased under Obama (if that is what you mean by “printing money”). However, Obama reduced the National Debt/ GDP ratio from 9.8% to 2.5%. He did this by reducing the annual deficit by 2/3rds from $1,412B (2009) to $438B (2015). He held spending basically constant during his reign; revenues went up by over 50%.
Read this comparing Bush’s last year 2009 to 2015.

5. Finally I never said “I told you so”. I made no predictions about passage of the AHCA.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:08 am

Sandy wrote:Well, let's see. It allowed 30 million more Americans to access a health care system


Can you please tell me who did not have access to the healthcare system? I mean, really did not have access?

Many of the people I ministered to who lived in poverty got better coverage than I paid for. Giving them insurance (so a number can be stated and bragged upon) when someone else (like me) was paying the bill for any medical they already were taking advantage of is deceitful in Obamacare.

The USA does not need a governmental healthcare system. Doing what was done under Obamacare did not address the need for Drs. to make a very good living and hospitals to be very profitable so they can stay current with modern tech.

I remember a few years back when I was in Cuba and our translator told us about the government provided health care... As long as you were healthy, they would care for you. Let the liberals have their way and this is where you are headed.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:16 am

KeithE wrote:It was not government that has your $65,000 bill. It was the hospitals.

Government must limit treatment to that required and monitor costs of those treatments..


This is ludicrous. Take away the profit from hospitals and their aqbility to expand and stay technically advanced and there will be a huge price to pay for all health care.

The Veterans hospitals are a picture of the government limiting treatment. I guess you think we need more sick people dying while waiting months for treatment. Government oversight on this could be extremely dangerous to the health of our citizens.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby Haruo » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:01 pm

My wife gets good treatment at the VA Hospital here. The best hospitals in Seattle, including the one she was born at and the one I was born at, are nonprofits.

I'm not saying she gets perfect treatment, but she gets as good as she would from any for-profit hospital I've looked at. Not all VA hospitals are as good as ours, and there are better hospitals here by far than the VA, but it's still a good source of medical care.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby KeithE » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:11 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:It was not government that has your $65,000 bill. It was the hospitals.

Government must limit treatment to that required and monitor costs of those treatments..


This is ludicrous. Take away the profit from hospitals and their aqbility to expand and stay technically advanced and there will be a huge price to pay for all health care.

The Veterans hospitals are a picture of the government limiting treatment. I guess you think we need more sick people dying while waiting months for treatment. Government oversight on this could be extremely dangerous to the health of our citizens.


I’m not suggesting US hospitals not operate as for-profit entries (although that is one possibility that works well in many countries e.g. UK). But it has to be regulated. Hospitals, doctors have free reign to overtreat and that is increasingly happening since 1980. There is every incentive to treat people (more treatments more money). Insurance companies play that role by denying coverage. But they too can increase premiums gradually over the years and have done so in a semi-colluded fashion. Something has to be done to curtail this cost increase.

Image

Image

US ranks 37 out of 191 countries in terms of quality of care.

The reasons US health care costs 2.5 times the average of OEDC countries are due to:

1) Overtreatment compared to other counties.
Image

2) Prices of procedures are usually higher.
Image

3) Our obesity (includes me)
Image

4) Unreasonably high malpractice awards.
http://epmonthly.com/blog/malpractice-systems-in-other-countries/
Litigation costs in the US are twice those in other countries, with half of US payments going to legal costs rather than compensating patients.


Good government can clearly help with 1), 2) and 4). Perhaps 3) as well.

For those of you who believe government never does anything good, I recommend government is good
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby KeithE » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:49 am

Now Trump has joined with Republicans in sabotaging ObamaCare. Yesterday
Trump pursuing Republican strategy of sabotaging Affordable Care Act

Displaying deal-making skills that employ vulnerable citizens as bargaining chips, President Donald Trump threatened on Wednesday to cut off subsidies that help poor people afford health coverage in order to get Democrats to the negotiating table on repealing the Affordable Care Act (ACA).


Threatened non-payment of CSRs appears to be one prong in the administration's scheme to sabotage the ACA, or Obamacare, HuffPo senior national correspondent Jonathan Cohn wrote this week.


An anonymous senior administration official confirmed to Politico that the president "wants to use [the subsidies] as leverage" to bring Democrats to the table.

As Eric Levitz summarized the stance for New York magazine, "Shorter Trump: Nice affordable healthcare for the poor you got here, would be a real shame if something happened to it."


That is a threat - you Democrats 'vote for Repeal/Replace, or poor people getting subsidies will suffer’.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby Jim » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:53 pm

KeithE wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:It was not government that has your $65,000 bill. It was the hospitals.

Government must limit treatment to that required and monitor costs of those treatments..



All those gorgeous colors just to indicate the sorry state of U.S. health-care as a result of 8 years of Obama, who never even enforced the "employer mandate" that would have made his legacy gold-plated?
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby Sandy » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:31 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:It was not government that has your $65,000 bill. It was the hospitals.

Government must limit treatment to that required and monitor costs of those treatments..


This is ludicrous. Take away the profit from hospitals and their aqbility to expand and stay technically advanced and there will be a huge price to pay for all health care.

The Veterans hospitals are a picture of the government limiting treatment. I guess you think we need more sick people dying while waiting months for treatment. Government oversight on this could be extremely dangerous to the health of our citizens.


Factually, neither of those statements are accurate. Profits do not go toward technical advances or medical research, or upgrading equipment, that's part of what for-profit companies call "costs." Profits are dividends paid to the shareholders. That money comes off the top, by the way, and if it takes more than expected, the shareholders get paid first, and the improvements, research and patient care are all lower priorities. Most medical research, and technical advances in medicine in this country happens in non-profit hospitals connected to universities, places like Johns Hopkins, Harvard, Penn, UC San Fran, Stanford, Columbia, Washington U in St. Louis, UPMC. BTW, our school just moved over to UPMC six months ago because the premiums were about 25% lower than the for-profit insurance company, and the patient costs were anywhere from 30% to 40% less for medical services. The care, in my opinion, is better, and not much difference in the wait times to see doctors. When almost half of what you pay for services and premiums go to dividend checks, it makes a big difference in the cost.

My Dad was a WW2 vet, and went to the VA hospital in Tucson for his medical care until he got a job on an army base, and his government insurance allowed us to be treated at the military hospital on the base. You didn't have to make an appointment to see the doctor, you walked in and signed up. Sometimes you waited an hour or so, sometimes you got right in. If you needed to see a specialist, you made an appointment, and I don't remember that the wait time was any longer than it is for private physicians now. If the Army hospital hadn't had the specialists, we'd have had a longer drive to get to them. I had my tonsils and appendix taken out in the base hospital. The care was always good. After Dad retired, he started going back to the VA hospital, and fortunately for him, the top cardiac surgeon in Arizona was available there when he needed bypass surgery. Fifteen years later, which is a long time for a bypass to last, the same surgeon did a second one for him. Things that happen at VA hospitals get a lot of publicity, but I've never run into anyone who got care there who would have gone to a private hospital if they could. Yeah, you hear about people who die while waiting for health care, because its a public hospital, and that kind of stuff makes the news. But there are a lot of people who die waiting for care in private, for profit hospitals, too. And there are a lot of people who die because they can't afford to access the technical advances provided by medical research.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby Jim » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:18 am

Repubs have done nothing to sabotage Obamacare. It was designed from the get-go to fail and thus sabotaged by its designers in order to place everyone’s health-care in the hands of the government (single payer as admitted by Obama). MIT’s Gruber admitted as much when he testified that he was hired to make the act obfuscated enough to keep the public from knowing what was in it, and Pelosi made it plain that this was so when she was silly enough to claim that its provisions would be known AFTER its enactment, not before. Obama was smart enough to never enforce the employer-mandate as required in 2014 when it became obvious that especially small businesses would make radical adjustments, such as the 30-hour work-week and part-time jobs the rule instead of the exception. Medicare was enacted in the 1960s with the government required to administer it. By the 1980s, it was discovered that the government could not handle it, so its administration was turned over to the insurance companies. Whether a right or a privilege, universal health-care is possible only when designed along the lines of Medicare for everyone, with treatment any time needed and the cost, like SS and MC, deducted from wages. In this way, the healthiest would pay for years, like Medicare, until they needed it for cause. If necessary, adjustments could be made, like with the graduated income tax, so that the wealthiest would be responsible for bearing a greater share of the cost, though that sort of wealth re-distribution would be unfair. Administration should be left to the insurance companies with the proper regulations enacted by Congress. Obama was divisively caste-oriented but one gall bladder is worth any other no matter to whom it belongs.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby KeithE » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:16 pm

Jim wrote:Repubs have done nothing to sabotage Obamacare. It was designed from the get-go to fail and thus sabotaged by its designers in order to place everyone’s health-care in the hands of the government (single payer as admitted by Obama). MIT’s Gruber admitted as much when he testified that he was hired to make the act obfuscated enough to keep the public from knowing what was in it, and Pelosi made it plain that this was so when she was silly enough to claim that its provisions would be known AFTER its enactment, not before. Obama was smart enough to never enforce the employer-mandate as required in 2014 when it became obvious that especially small businesses would make radical adjustments, such as the 30-hour work-week and part-time jobs the rule instead of the exception. Medicare was enacted in the 1960s with the government required to administer it. By the 1980s, it was discovered that the government could not handle it, so its administration was turned over to the insurance companies. Whether a right or a privilege, universal health-care is possible only when designed along the lines of Medicare for everyone, with treatment any time needed and the cost, like SS and MC, deducted from wages. In this way, the healthiest would pay for years, like Medicare, until they needed it for cause. If necessary, adjustments could be made, like with the graduated income tax, so that the wealthiest would be responsible for bearing a greater share of the cost, though that sort of wealth re-distribution would be unfair. Administration should be left to the insurance companies with the proper regulations enacted by Congress. Obama was divisively caste-oriented but one gall bladder is worth any other no matter to whom it belongs.


The sabotage is documented in the posts above. Much of the above is fiction dreamt up by Jim, unless he can document it. For one fiction (in red above), the employer mandate (with companies more than 50 FTEs) is currently in place as of 2016. Read this.

But the underline is not a bad idea! After all, Medicare has controlled health cost increases better than private insurances 4.3%/year (Medicare) vs 6.5% (private insurance). Read this.

The italicized/bolded is a bad idea since the insurance company administration costs are 19-24% (with 3-5% profit margins) while Medicare’s is about 2% and no profit.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby Jim » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:25 pm

KeithE wrote:
Jim wrote:Repubs have done nothing to sabotage Obamacare. It was designed from the get-go to fail and thus sabotaged by its designers in order to place everyone’s health-care in the hands of the government (single payer as admitted by Obama). MIT’s Gruber admitted as much when he testified that he was hired to make the act obfuscated enough to keep the public from knowing what was in it, and Pelosi made it plain that this was so when she was silly enough to claim that its provisions would be known AFTER its enactment, not before. Obama was smart enough to never enforce the employer-mandate as required in 2014 when it became obvious that especially small businesses would make radical adjustments, such as the 30-hour work-week and part-time jobs the rule instead of the exception. Medicare was enacted in the 1960s with the government required to administer it. By the 1980s, it was discovered that the government could not handle it, so its administration was turned over to the insurance companies. Whether a right or a privilege, universal health-care is possible only when designed along the lines of Medicare for everyone, with treatment any time needed and the cost, like SS and MC, deducted from wages. In this way, the healthiest would pay for years, like Medicare, until they needed it for cause. If necessary, adjustments could be made, like with the graduated income tax, so that the wealthiest would be responsible for bearing a greater share of the cost, though that sort of wealth re-distribution would be unfair. Administration should be left to the insurance companies with the proper regulations enacted by Congress. Obama was divisively caste-oriented but one gall bladder is worth any other no matter to whom it belongs.


The sabotage is documented in the posts above. Much of the above is fiction dreamt up by Jim, unless he can document it. For one fiction (in red above), the employer mandate (with companies more than 50 FTEs) is currently in place as of 2016. Read this.

Moot point. The large concerns are self-insured and do not pay insurance premiums.

But the underline is not a bad idea! After all, Medicare has controlled health cost increases better than private insurances 4.3%/year (Medicare) vs 6.5% (private insurance). Read this.

Government regs have already required two visits instead of one just for annual Medicare checkup, doubling the cost. The resulting paperwork I receive via mail (pages of it) represents added costs such as added employees to handle the extra waste. The government will not be able to handle any new system, as with Medicare, so this point is moot, also.

The italicized/bolded is a bad idea since the insurance company administration costs are 19-24% (with 3-5% profit margins) while Medicare’s is about 2% and no profit.


Also moot since nothing is more corrupt/incompetent than government. Under any new system, your statistics will change dramatically. Costs will increase no matter the party in power. Competition among insurance companies will help keep costs down but not by much. No such thing as a free (or even partly free) lunch.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby KeithE » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:16 pm

Jim wrote:
KeithE wrote:
Jim wrote:Repubs have done nothing to sabotage Obamacare. It was designed from the get-go to fail and thus sabotaged by its designers in order to place everyone’s health-care in the hands of the government (single payer as admitted by Obama). MIT’s Gruber admitted as much when he testified that he was hired to make the act obfuscated enough to keep the public from knowing what was in it, and Pelosi made it plain that this was so when she was silly enough to claim that its provisions would be known AFTER its enactment, not before. Obama was smart enough to never enforce the employer-mandate as required in 2014 when it became obvious that especially small businesses would make radical adjustments, such as the 30-hour work-week and part-time jobs the rule instead of the exception. Medicare was enacted in the 1960s with the government required to administer it. By the 1980s, it was discovered that the government could not handle it, so its administration was turned over to the insurance companies. Whether a right or a privilege, universal health-care is possible only when designed along the lines of Medicare for everyone, with treatment any time needed and the cost, like SS and MC, deducted from wages. In this way, the healthiest would pay for years, like Medicare, until they needed it for cause. If necessary, adjustments could be made, like with the graduated income tax, so that the wealthiest would be responsible for bearing a greater share of the cost, though that sort of wealth re-distribution would be unfair. Administration should be left to the insurance companies with the proper regulations enacted by Congress. Obama was divisively caste-oriented but one gall bladder is worth any other no matter to whom it belongs.


The sabotage is documented in the posts above. Much of the above is fiction dreamt up by Jim, unless he can document it. For one fiction (in red above), the employer mandate (with companies more than 50 FTEs) is currently in place as of 2016. Read this.

Moot point. The large concerns are self-insured and do not pay insurance premiums.

But the underline is not a bad idea! After all, Medicare has controlled health cost increases better than private insurances 4.3%/year (Medicare) vs 6.5% (private insurance). Read this.

Government regs have already required two visits instead of one just for annual Medicare checkup, doubling the cost. The resulting paperwork I receive via mail (pages of it) represents added costs such as added employees to handle the extra waste. The government will not be able to handle any new system, as with Medicare, so this point is moot, also.

The italicized/bolded is a bad idea since the insurance company administration costs are 19-24% (with 3-5% profit margins) while Medicare’s is about 2% and no profit.


Also moot since nothing is more corrupt/incompetent than government. Under any new system, your statistics will change dramatically. Costs will increase no matter the party in power. Competition among insurance companies will help keep costs down but not by much. No such thing as a free (or even partly free) lunch.


No use arguing with someone who doesn't show any attention to the links and other points I make. Just declaring "moot" and changing the subject is not worthy of a response.
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Re: Republican Sabotage of ObamaCare

Postby Jim » Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:04 am

K: No use arguing with someone who doesn't show any attention to the links and other points I make. Just declaring "moot" and changing the subject is not worthy of a response.

This is the perfect example of the inflexibility and elitism indicative of the liberal/socialistic mindset. If no reasonable response is available, just turn ad hominem for a bit of spleen-venting. On a lighter note, attached is a short-short from my book Regulator & Other Stories. Since you're retired you may have a few minutes to waste. It sort of describes Obamacare as it appeared when introduced. If no interest, no harm done.
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