Health Care Options

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Re: Health Care Options

Postby KeithE » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:56 pm

Sandy wrote:
Timothy Bonney wrote:I can understand why the GOP leadership likes this. It helps them give their rich buddies tax cuts. But I may never understand why working class Americans would vote for a billionaire playboy who has never done without a day in his life and think that he would understand their needs or even care about them.

Already I'm seeing posts from Trump supporters who are disappointed that he isn't doing anything positive for them. What did they expect from President Daddy Warbucks? :?


http://www.msnbc.com/all

Some excellent insights from a town hall meeting with Bernie Sanders, coordinated by Chris Hayes of All In on MSNBC. The town hall was in deep red McDowell County, West Virginia, an area that voted heavily for Trump largely because he promised them they would get better health care coverage than they can now access through the ACA for less money. Now they expect him to deliver, and are realizing that the GOP Congress wants to bust up not only the ACA, but just about every other benefit they get, because they use the trash word "entitlements," in order to give billionaires a tax cut. The learning curve on the ACA was long, but now that its in place, most Americans see, and experience, its benefits. The rhetoric from the right, including the buffoon, doesn't match the facts. The GOP can come up with whatever names and declarations it wants, if their "repeal and replace" is, in fact, just a "bust up the entitlement" plan, and does not provide Americans with greater access and health care coverage at a lower price than they pay now, which is what was promised, then you can count on a deep, Democratic majority in both houses after the 2018 mid terms.

This is a deep red county in a deep red state, one of the deepest. But I think the expectations are clear, as Sanders lays them out, and the loudest applause was reserved for a man who makes a statement about being surprised that a senator from the Northeast is more sympathetic to the people of West Virginia than Mitch McConnell. That's a wake up call.

I watched that as well. Those people have suffered too much already. Also a real eye opener for me about the elicit opioids trade in this country affecting the hopeless. Bernie's messages rang true to them.
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby KeithE » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:41 pm

William Thornton wrote:just heard that Hil's people were meeting with the Russkies.


Reference?
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby KeithE » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:22 pm

William Thornton wrote:
KeithE wrote:
William Thornton wrote:
Neither did Hil...and she lost. Might be a good time to figure this out.

Might be a good time to call a mis-election (like a mis-trial) based on a flawed election (uncommonly high degree of lies being told, Russian interference). Have a re-election with new candidates.

Lacking that (yes I know that will not happen), start the protests at town halls to correct the mis-winds going on. Impeach if necessary (even Pence would be better).


Dream on, bro.......


The dream of a re-election is indeed a wild dream (a fact I admitted to). But that is what ought to happen.

But the dream of impeachment/removal (or resignation) is hardly unlikely given there already are 5 impeachable offenses against Trump (even before the election collusion with Russians becomes another such offense - it's already highly likely (imo), given the many contacts by the Trump campaign staff and the fact that Trump himself called on Russians to release more Hillary emails).

And the dream of Town Halls protesting all manners of RW stances on issues is proceeding quite well.
Take a peek at protests at town halls around the country as is the
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby William Thornton » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:32 pm

KeithE wrote:
William Thornton wrote:just heard that Hil's people were meeting with the Russkies.


Reference?


Widespread. Google it.
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby KeithE » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:55 pm

William Thornton wrote:
KeithE wrote:
William Thornton wrote:just heard that Hil's people were meeting with the Russkies.


Reference?


Widespread. Google it.


Such laziness.

So I googled it and there is only one source for the many stories - a Kremlin source named Dmitry Peskov (longtime spokesman for Russian President Vladimir Putin)
https://www.google.com/webhp?nord=1#nord=1&q=Russians+met+with+Hillary&*
Note that virtually all of these citations were from RW sources (aol.com and cnn.com are the exceptions and their treatment is more evenhanded and conjectural).

This story is about 1 day old and Hillary has not responded yet that I can find. If she denies it (as she probably will), who would you believe William?.
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby Sandy » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:23 pm

William Thornton wrote:Dream on, bro. Hmmm...just heard that Hil's people were meeting with the Russkies.


Just a shade of a difference for a US Secretary of State to meet with Russians, as opposed to a political candidate for office colluding with them to influence the outcome of the election, and all they have on Hillary is from her time as Sec State. It's another accusation without evidence or merit, just like the wiretapping. But that's typical Trump diversion, and it underlines how desperate they are. Making an outlandish, and unproveable accusation against the former President about bugging Trump tower just underlines the desperation of the OHB. My guess is that the CIA and FBI have connected the dots, and this investigation isn't going to go away, no matter how many US attorneys Trump tries to dump. I mean, you've got Kellyanne Conway sitting down with a news reporter on national television, trying to make spying through TV sets and microwave ovens into a serious subject. :lol: And now that they haven't produced a single shred of evidence to back up the claim by the imposed deadline, they're doing some major backtracking. I don't believe its a matter of "if," it's a matter of when.

Given the responses of some of the fine members of the senate and house on the GOP side who have been raked over the coals at their own town hall meetings, it doesn't look like there will be enough Republican support, especially in the Senate, to pass their bill. The opposition just needs three Republicans to break its back, and they've already got loud NO!'s from Cotton, Capito, Portman, Kennedy, Heller and Collins. I'd say its DOA.
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby William Thornton » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:07 pm

You've got an original, official source and, as fox would say, do some remedial reading on your own. Yes, I note that the Clinton media passed this one by.

Doesn't matter. She lost.
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby KeithE » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:57 pm

Now back to the health care topic.

Just heard Spicer's claim that Trump's promise (both pre-election and post-election) of covering all Americans is still Trump’s goal; and the the AHCA (along the other two prongs) will bring that about (CBO estimates are “dead wrong"). He argues that market forces will increase competition and result in 0% uninsured. That is purely a wild conjecture. On what basis do they believe more insurance options (of substantial differences) will come about? Or if it did bring more options, there would not be anyone who would opt out of all of them*. If the RyanCare proponents really want more options (not just some anti-gov ideology), they would support a public option.

* And what about the person (invincible young or the poor 50-64 year old who cannot afford any insurance) who opts out and ends up in the ER room. We will all pay for that in form of increased insurance premiums, and hospitalization costs.

ObamaCare has cut the uninsured quite a bit. The uninsured is down to 11.4% of Americans by Q2FY15 from a peak of 18% just prior Oct 1, 2013 which is when the ObamaCare markets became available (awkwardly so, but it was still effective).
Image

Note that under the AHCA the number of uninsured is estimated at 52M in 2026 (~ 15% of the expected US population of 350M by 2026) - i.e back to the pre-Obamacare days. With the same estimating techniques, the number of uninsured under the continuation of the ACA is predicted to be 28M (~8% of the expected population). So the CBO estimate says under the ACA that measure (% of uninsured) will continue to improve as it has.

Now even 8% uninsured is unacceptable in my view, especially in light that every other major country in the free world has universal coverage (0% uninsured) at a much lower cost. That is the direction this national discussion should take.

----------------------

There are other measures of the effectiveness of a health care approach, like the quality of care and fairness of care. The AHCA (RyanCare) is dropping requirements of the health care insurance and thus the quality of care will decline. This is especially shone under the Medicaid expansion which is taking a $880B cut over the period of 2018-2026 passing along the costs to the states if care of the poor is not to be compromised. Ryan himself was pleased that RyanCare would save money ($337B) to the federal balance sheet; but the truth is he added more than double that ($880B) to the states if the same level of care is to be maintained.

Obviously the fairness of care over the poor-rich spectrum will be further slanted towards the rich since:
1) the RyanCare tax credits are not income based as the ObamaCare subsidies are
2) Medicaid (care for the poor adults, poor children, and the elderly unable to pay for long term care) is cut drastically especially after 2020.

----------------------

On the political front, the Trump / Ryan political pundits are on the air saying among other things that ObamaCare is unpopular. Truth is ObamaCare’s popularlity is at a all time high - 48% like it, 42% dislike it, 10% undecided, despite a PR stampede against it.

I don’t make it a practice to make Sandian :wink: pronouncements about future elections, but this does not bode well for any in congress who would vote for the GOP plan (assuming it gets to a up/down vote). I suspect those that vote against the GOP plan would also be helped somewhat. If the W Va town hall meeting with Chris Hayes/ Bernie Sanders is any indication, anyone who would vote for HR 867 (Medicare-for-All) would be helped greatly.

I hate to say it, but Trump could come along and make a better plan (I don't underestimate his political acumen).
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby KeithE » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:42 pm

You should know that I do not always believe all of you will read my stuff. But it helps me clarify my views.
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby KeithE » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:01 pm

William Thornton wrote:You've got an original, official source and, as fox would say, do some remedial reading on your own. Yes, I note that the Clinton media passed this one by.

Doesn't matter. She lost.

No the “Clinton News Network” (CNN) actually initiated this story with the Zakaria interview of Peskov.

You would know this if you had done your remedial reading,
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby Sandy » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:48 pm

William Thornton wrote:You've got an original, official source and, as fox would say, do some remedial reading on your own. Yes, I note that the Clinton media passed this one by.

Doesn't matter. She lost.


Nothing to it. She's not being investigated by the FBI for colluding to fix the election.
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby William Thornton » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:59 am

Sandy wrote:
William Thornton wrote:You've got an original, official source and, as fox would say, do some remedial reading on your own. Yes, I note that the Clinton media passed this one by.

Doesn't matter. She lost.


Nothing to it. She's not being investigated by the FBI for colluding to fix the election.


She should be investigated for campaign malpractice.
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby Sandy » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:39 am

The discussion is on health care. I see that William has nothing constructive to contribute to that discussion. So I guess he's OK with the cuts that the current administration plans to make to his medicare and the increases in cost for his supplemental. He's a semi-retired SBC pastor, so he's up there with the upper 5% of the population in accumulated wealth. :wink:
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby William Thornton » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:19 am

I'll contribute that it's a mess, Obamacare is a mess, the house bill is a mess...and no one knows where this is going.
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby Sandy » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:19 am

Granted, the house bill is a mess.

I hear the rhetoric about Obamacare being a mess, too, but when you look at the facts, which Keith does a pretty good job of laying out here, it's really not anywhere close to the rhetoric. It brought the numbers of insured to record levels, it provides benefits that seem to meet the needs of those who have taken advantage of it, at least, from their perspective. It seems like the only ones who aren't happy with it are the profiteers who thought they were going to make off with billions in revenue, skimmed off what people are willing to pay to relieve their pain and suffering. It's not that they aren't making money, they are still raking in profits which are well beyond reasonable (or moral, since you are talking about the sanctity of life, health, and matters of life or death here) given the service provided. Insurance is a risk, and if you want to corner the market by using access to health care as a wedge to turn a buck, then you accept the risk that some of those who buy the benefits will get sick, and need more money than they paid into the system to get care. The cost of care is inflated, too, because some companies who control the gateway to access health care also own the means of delivery.

It's certainly not a perfect system, but it seems like the only "mess" centers on the profiteers not being able to gouge consumers, or pocket gigantic wads of cash for delivering almost nothing, but simply for opening the door to what has become a privilege for prominents. What the Republicans and the buffoon seem to want to fix is the cash flow to their pockets.
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:51 am

If we could take the profit motive out of healthcare, it would help the whole situation. I'm not talking about expecting doctors to work for the same salaries as most ministers, but the for-profit hospital chains do not help the situation. We talk about the overuse of ER's. I have learned that part of the agreement here with the local hospital (owned by a chain) is that doctors cannot open their offices or see patients between noon on Saturday and Monday morning. That way, the hospital gets the profits from weekend illnesses, so the flu can cost you $1,000 to see a doctor. There are no "doc in a box" clinics closer than 20 miles, and that is across the state line so Medicaid patients cannot use VA Medicaid in NC.
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby Haruo » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:05 am

Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby Sandy » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:24 am

On the Road with the Health Wagon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=breTKX1wxDA

And our current House leadership thinks things are in a "mess" because they can't settle on how many billions in profit health insurers should be guaranteed.
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby KeithE » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:15 pm

Here is what the Doctors recommend.

Medicare for All

Demand that it be “scored” by the CBO in town halls and wherever you can.
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:37 am

William Thornton wrote:
Timothy Bonney wrote:But I may never understand why working class Americans would vote for a billionaire playboy who has never done without a day in his life and think that he would understand their needs or even care about them. :?


Neither did Hil...and she lost. Might be a good time to figure this out.


Yes, she lost William. But even worse, the country lost, not because Hillary isn't President. She'd have done OK, no worse than several recent Presidents. And, several other candidates in both the GOP and the DNC would have been OK presidents. We lost because the country elected a completely unqualified person for the job (avoiding all the qualified candidates) to keep from getting a qualified person that wasn't very likable.

Someday the GOP will have to own up to the fact that they let this guy get on the ticket. Sure he isn't a Democrat. But he also isn't really a Republican either. Is it really a good idea to lower the bar so low that the only real goal is to prevent a Democrat from getting elected, even if the person you elect turns out to be antithetical to absolutely every value your party has believed and fought for??

Trump makes Bill Clinton look like a choir boy when it comes to morality. Moral Majority? :lol: At least I have to thank the GOP for giving the DNC back the moral high ground.
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby Jon Estes » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:15 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:Yes, she lost William. But even worse, the country lost...


I wonder if God gave us what we needed or what we deserved?

A case could be made for both.
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:33 am

Jon Estes wrote:
Timothy Bonney wrote:Yes, she lost William. But even worse, the country lost...


I wonder if God gave us what we needed or what we deserved?

A case could be made for both.


I don't believe in predestination. So I believe the people that voted chose Trump and not God.
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby KeithE » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:41 pm

72 Co-sponspors for Medicare for All (aka HR 676) yet no mention of this option on any media I've heard. The winners would be all Americans while the losers would be the Heath Insurance and Pharmaceutics industries. This is indicative of the hold these industries have on the media. - they get much advertisement money from these industries (think of all the drugs we see advertised).

Are we a nation of/by/for the people or of/by/for the corporations?
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby KeithE » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:58 pm

Update - 5 more co-signers, making a total of 77.
Single Payer Action

Where is the media on all this?? They give 15 Freedom Caucus members much coverage when they did not vote for the GOP Plan but little/no mention of one of the most co-sponsored bills ever.

My Representative (Mo Brooks) is promoting the idea of a simple repeal of ObamaCare. That is getting coverage on FoxNews
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Re: Health Care Options

Postby Sandy » Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:03 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:I don't believe in predestination. So I believe the people that voted chose Trump and not God.


I agree with that completely. Just because something happens doesn't mean it's God's will. People have a free will, and they can choose not to follow God's will. And I don't believe that every political leader is where they are because that's what God wanted. I think good, solid Biblical theology teaches that God doesn't manipulate and control humanity like robots, and that he doesn't intervene to change things to the way he wants them. I think he lets us make choices, and then live with the consequences.
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