Something to consider

[Jon Estes]

[KeithE]

[Tim Bonney]

Jon,

Maybe I haven't explained it well.

It is the, "you walked the aisle and said the sinners prayer and can now go on and live your life in sin" kind of Calvinism that I'm talking about. Not serious scholarly Calvinism but the American perversion and twisting of Calvinism by misapplication of revivalism.

I think it contributes to people like Jerry Falwell Jr. and Frankly Graham thinking they can support a guy like Donald Trump because "he is a baby Christian." And by that they mean he said the "sinners prayer" and they are using it as if it is a magic incantation that makes squeaky clean all his past and even present unethical and sinful behavior.

Call it a perversion of Calvinism, a perversion of conversion theology, or just a pervision of Evangelicalism if you like. But it is messed up. It totally denies Jesus' own words, "by their fruits you shall know them."

[Jon Estes]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

Every branch of theology and doctrine that emerged from the Reformation has its flaws. That's all related to time, circumstances, history, culture and a whole lot of other factors that contributed to it in the first place, and have allowed the various denominational divides to remain relatively strong, holding a grip that appears to be motivated more by its own tradition than a search for truth. It's hardly surprising that in an atmosphere of religious liberty, a church which Jesus intended to be united around his grace is fragmented and fractured over loyalty to tradition and the insistence of each group that they are "closer" to the truth than anyone else.

I don't know if hour long sermons are characteristic of Calvinist churches or not, but the only two times I've attended an SBC church pastored by a self-identified Calvinist, that was the case. The worship service itself in both churches was stereotypical Calvinist, mostly traditional hymns and reading of affirmations and creeds, not necessarily a bad thing. If the sermons had been interesting, my perspective may have been more positive, and I can't say I wasn't warned in at least one case, because the website noted that the service, which began at 10:45, didn't dismiss until 12:30 because the pastor provided an hour of exposition of the scripture. The other one preached 50 minutes, and his sermon was almost point by point a Calvinist apologetic. And I'm not one to complain about service or sermon length.

It seems the controversy over Calvinism in the SBC is more about who is going to ascend the ranks and succeed the old resurgence leadership, a weapon to wield, a new way of divide and conquer, or of rallying troops to get the desired vote outcome at convention meetings. It's yet another cycle of backward, provincial "southernism" that creates an oligarchy by which those who are the winners can reach down and pluck their friends and relatives out of pastorates and into jobs on the denominational executive level. In my lifetime, it's the third wave of such activity. And at this particular stage of the game, with accelerating decline in attendance and membership, it still gets played out.

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

http://johnpavlovitz.com/2016/07/21/25- ... npavlovitz

I'll put it back in. He makes some excellent points.

[KeithE]

[Rvaughn]

I don't share some of Pavlovitz’s 25 reasons, many of which I would consider exaggerated for effect. I think I can sum up my reasons for not voting for Trump much more succinctly -- I think he is a pompous blowhard and, mostly, I didn't/don't trust him to mean what he said/says.

[Sandy]

I might not have stated it in the exact terms that Pavlovitz did here, but many of his points combine into both my personal reasons for not voting for him, and they form an excellent foundation if you want to argue, as many Evangelical Conservatives do, Christian convictions as a primary influence in your choice. It would not be difficult to lay out the arguments of the "Moral Majority," Jerry Falwell and co., and other hard line hard right Evangelicals like James Dobson or Pat Robertson, whose commentary and words about why character should matter to Christians, and why Christians should support certain candidates, and realize fairly quickly that Trump fits none of their criteria. Over time, however, they've shifted from a "voting Christian values" approach, to voting for any Republican and either trying to make them fit some of their criteria, or just passing over it. At any rate, what they do now politically bears no resemblance whatsoever to anything that could be remotely identified as "Christian."

Sometimes, I think George W. Bush purposefully did things to assert his independence, and demonstrate that he wasn't even close to sharing the "Biblical worldview" of Evangelical leaders. I wonder if some of what he did was to deliberately irritate them, knowing that he had them in his back pocket, like he and Laura posing for newspaper photos outside the front door of St. John's Church with the gay Episcopal bishop Gene Robinson, whom they supported. Then there was Romney, who was as decently honest as a politician, though he clearly articulated his disdain for anyone not as rich as he was, but who didn't come anywhere close to sharing a Conservative Evangelical "biblical worldview" because Mormons have little to nothing in common with it. I think that's when the self-appointed Evangelical leaders were exposed as hypocrites. Supporting Trump tells the world that the values they so carefully crafted, and laid out back in the 80's and 90's count for zero. All of that had to be completely abandoned, worldview, values, integrity, reputation, to support Trump. The leadership are all birds of a feather, they've built wealth out of the collection plate, live like the billionaires in the cabinet, and share the same aims, mainly the acquisition of more wealth. Well, none of my money goes to any of them, and my vote didn't go to Trump.

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

What's even more frightening is that the guy he picked to head the National Security Council was conspiring with the Russians to undermine long standing US policy regarding its relationship with Russia, and to tell them directly, in the face of sanctions, that they just needed to wait, and once they were in charge, all of that would just "go away." Basically, he stabbed all of our European allies in the back. They're all justifiably nervous about Russia, and, contrary to the assertions of the orange haired buffoon prior to the election, they depend on American power as a shield. There's no lack of respect for the US in Europe, especially in that regard, at least there wasn't. But there is now.

[Haruo]

I have had .

[KeithE]

[Jim]

It seems that in three months even the most die-hard Hillary fans would get over the election…at least the adults. But in the Forum, the beat goes on and the teeth are still gnashing, apparently in the hope that a republican House will somehow bring impeachment proceedings and a republican Senate will cashier Trump. Even now, the moles are looking 24/7 for lawsuit possibilities and the media are frothing at the mouth grasping for anything to skewer him with; however, some of the public remembers the beginnings of the Big-O administration regarding the glitches. Remember Treasury nominee Geitner, who had to pony up $43,000 (two-years-worth) in unpaid taxes to get the job. The statute of limitations let him off the hook for the rest. Or, there was Daschle (forget the department), who came up with $146,000 in unpaid taxes but still had to bow out because the stench was so bad. And then there was “Dollar Bill” Richardson, New Mexico guv (was it energy dept. or HHS or neither) who was all set to trot but had to let it go because he was under corruption investigation (kickbacks). Later, there was Susan Rice at the UN, who became the scapegoat liar over the Benghazi Massacre and was rewarded with the NSA top job—the National Security Agency! Now being played on the Internet and TV circuit is the infamous clip of Obama telling Medvedev to tell Putin to wait until the 2012 election was over, when he, the Big-O, would have more flexibility. Later, Putin grabbed Crimea and invaded Ukraine while Barack Hussein presumably was playing golf and had little to complain about. Obama SCOTUS nominee Sotomayor was being confirmed while the SCOTUS was overturning her blatantly racist district-court decision that would have allowed four blacks to bypass four better-qualified whites for fire-department jobs in Connecticut. And then, of course, there was State Secretary Hillary through the use of personal servers making government secrets (33,000 unfound emails) available to just a bright fifth-grade hacker, not to mention every government in the world. Then, there was MIT’s genius Gruber who admitted to obfuscating Obamacare to the point of complete opaqueness for the unwashed masses, especially Congress, meaning that Obama could lie 40 ways from sunset about doctors, prescriptions, etc. Or, remember when Obama, Durbin and Harry Reid tried to lock out of Congress the constitutionally-appointed Obama replacement in the Senate. Wasn’t Burriss his name, or something like that? The three had to eat crow and Burriss, courtesy of the Court, took his seat. The wire-taps on Flynn were carried out by the Obama administration and the leaks have come forth therefrom. These things come easily to mind but imagine what a thorough search would turn up on the Big-O. Maybe Schumer could get the Pope to annul the election, claiming that Trump had divorced the nation and was therefore guilty as sin. Of course, Sessions could meet on a nearby tarmac in their parked planes with Melania and make a “deal,” sorta like Lynch meeting Bubba to talk about grandchildren, of course. And the gnashing of teeth goes on. Enjoy. When the Obama crowd is finally cleared out, maybe some governance can be done. Right now, it’s a leaker’s paradise.

[Tim Bonney]

[Jim]

I laughed my way through the president’s news conference this afternoon – the best show in town. He exposed the already ill-thought-of press corps, or at least part of it, to a new kind of politician, actually a mostly non-politician. He excoriated the CNN “reporters” for their obvious and well-planned attack on him at every opportunity. I watch CNN quite a bit so I can always get the “other side” on any issue, and can attest to the fact that CNN exudes TV-hatred toward him…almost thick enough, phlegm-like, to wipe it off the screen. The biggies (CBS, NBC, ABC) in their nightly news programs have been hard at twisting the “news” (fake news, according to Trump) so as to make Trump a likely candidate for the hangman’s noose. I watch ABC and NBC the most. Members of their sacred talking-head panels (Sunday mornings) play tag-team in their assaults at denigrating most republicans, Trump in particular. The mainstream newspapers do the same, Trump always referring to the “failing New York Times.” The newsies can’t get over the election, either, especially since they carried the propaganda water for Hillary, and all for naught. CNN conducted the debate and Town Hall in which Hillary was given the proper info ahead of time, a strictly unpardonable sin. The “feeder,” Donna Brazile, was rewarded with the temporary top job at the DNC, whose Internet activity the Russians, it is said, hacked into with the most unglamorous results regarding the Hillary-gang and their thoughts. Every time Hillary appeared in her bunny suit like she was looking for a convenient wall from which to fall, a la Humpty Dumpty, she splattered her candidacy beyond repair, with no help from the Russkies.

[Haruo]

[Sandy]

I laughed at it too. But I think we were probably laughing at it for different reasons. It's hard to believe that such a totally pathetic man, who has no grip on reality, and no concept of fact or truth, sits in the White House. If the media's goal was to rattle him, get him on his back feet in defense, and make him contradict every word he says at every turn, today's news conference was proof of their success.

I am genuinely fearful for the security of this country. Given the corruption, the undermining of US security by its own security council head, and the total and complete incompetence that has been on display since the inauguration, we are in gigantic trouble.