Five Liberal Lies

[David Flick]

[William Thornton]

Now we're cookin'.

[Haruo]

Lie #2 doesn't add up. Millionaires, it shows, swing 55-41% Republican; looks deceive; Clinton's big long 34% is very impressive till the little red stubs are totaled. I wouldn't say we have lies here, just misperceptions in some cases. But it's interesting piechartgazing, thanks David!

[Dave Roberts]

I was interested in the source for this graphic, but I did not see it. Can anyone help me. I did see the small acknowledgements for each graphic, but who did the overall study.

[KeithE]

I like data but I like it properly understood.

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Take Supposed Liberal Lie #1: “Conservatives are a tiny far-right fringe minority."
Most Liberals know they are a minority (especially in the South) and certainly do not think the conservative ranks are “tiny” in any part of the country.
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Supposed Liberal Lie #2 : “Conservatives are rich fat cats. Of the 20 richest Americans 60% are Democrats”. What ‘liberal' has said “Conservatives are rich fat cats” ?? In truth only about 9% of Americans have a net worth of a million or more.

And as Haruo pointed out, Hilliary + Sanders = 41%, all the Republicans total 55%. Thus millionaires favor Republicans to a small degree.

And, no Forbes reference was given for the claim of “Of the 20 richest Americans6-% are Democrats” Good reason since the only related Forbes reference found (given ) was about the richest 50 American families and it said 56% were Republicans, 14% Democrats and 30% “both”. David should supply a Forbes article about the top 20 richest American are 60% democrat, or retract his supposed "Liberal Lie”.
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Supposed Liberal Lie #3: “Conservatives are full of hate and anger”. Again what liberal has said this?? Virtually no one is “full of hate and anger”.

This references Pew Research and the most recent related Pew Research on Happiness of Americans was in 2008 and it did show Republicans (not conservatives) being slightly more happy than Democrats:

More up to date info:


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Supposed Liberal Lie #4: “Conservatives Do Not Care About the Poor”
It is true that many conservatives do not care about the poor, but that is far from saying “Conservatives (all of them) do not care about the poor”.
I have confirmed that Republicans give more than Democrats - read . That only stands to reason since Democrats are more likely to want government to really fix the plight of the poor while Republicans say people should do so through private charity. I say why not both in that the poor are not receiving enough now both in America (where ) and worldwide.
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Supposed Liberal Lie #5: “Conservatives are Rigid and Intolerant”.
Not really a lie wrt “most conservatives”. I find most conservatives very hard to “convert” or even entertain opposing views/data. Not sure I’ve converted anyone here on BL whether I was arguing for a liberal or conservative viewpoint. Liberals are rigid as well (but not usually intolerant).

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In summary, all of these claims are strawmen lies, in the sense they are imagined, overstated viewpoints that David’s source erected just to refute them. When such overstatements occur, you know there is some spiteful attitude toward “Liberals”.

Also I could not find any of the exact data with the scant references given - closest was on Supposed Liberal Lie #3 where a was found that had similar but not exact numerical data.

[Sandy]

Straw man arguments. Set up supposed things that "liberals" say, and then knock them down, without really using facts.

[KeithE]

[Tim Bonney]

David, how do you separate what appears to be your moving further to the right politically with how right wing Christians have treated you as a moderate Baptist pastor? Isn't it generally the same kind of people (primarily conservative Christians ) who support right wing politics who also support right wing Christianity? I mean you don't find too many liberal Christians voting for Donald Trump or Ted Cruz.

David the way you are going after "liberals" sounds suspiously like the way fundamentalist Christians go after moderate Christians and brand then as "liberals." Phrases like "liberal lies" could have been borrowed easily from Charles Stanley or Page Patterson as well as Ted Cruz.

Do you see any cognitive dissonance with your positions? Many of the same folks running for President in the GOP would sympathize with those who kicked you to the curb in the SBC.

[KeithE]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

Tim, I think your association of political positions with denominational politics, especially among Baptists, makes some assumptions that aren't necessarily true. There are a pretty significant number of political conservatives among the Baptist moderates who have been part of movements to the left of the SBC since the conservative resurgence. Baylor is a bastion of conservative politics in Texas, John Baugh was a major contributor to and supporter of George W Bush, Cecil Staton, from Georgia, was a moderate mover and shaker, financier of Smyth and Helwys, I believe, and has a long trail through moderate Baptist educational institutions like Southeastern before Patterson, and Mercer University. There are others, not quite so prominent, but just as involved in CBF or the moderate Baptist movement, and just as politically conservative as Fox's frequent citations of Pressler and the John Birchers.

It's more difficult, because of the backward, provincial way that many Baptists operate when it comes to pastors, church leaders and institution employees, for those who aren't politically conservative to be openly so, though I'm seeing a bit more of that now that Trump appears headed toward the Republican nomination, but it's a mistake to characterize all Theological conservatives as political ones as well. I'm seeing some conservatives with blogs and a bit of a public profile come out as political moderates this election season.

Some of the frustration over the past few election cycles for conservatives has been the growing realization that the Reagan revolution is over, and that it will take more than just "getting more conservatives to the polls" to win an election with the turnout of a Presidential year.

[Tim Bonney]

Sandy, those are good points. I agree that being conservative theologically and politically don't have to be connected.

What I will never understand is how someone can be the recepient of being attacked for supposed liberalism in one area of their life and then use the same rhetoric in another part of their life for others. I'm sure David was never a "liberal" Baptist but that doesn't matter. Anyone to the left of the SBC leadership was a "liberal" in their eyes. Most Democrats also have nuanced polical views. But nothing David says above suggests any nuance. We are all just liberal liars.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

I think the political climate of the day is retreating into hostility and anger for several reasons. There are a lot of people who have very little understanding of what it means to be involved in a democratic, constitutional, republic. While I may disagree with conservatives, especially those on the extreme fringes, the fact of the matter is that they have a legitimate place at the table. So do those who are liberal, and those who are on the far left fringes of liberal views. It's become a business for the media, to grab ratings and money, to either be extreme, or to exploit "niches" in the population and then use the power that comes from it to push an agenda. It's nothing new, but one of the modern perpetrators of this kind of mindless following the leader is Rush Limbaugh. In the midst of his daily twisting of the facts, he manipulates his listeners by subtly playing to their bigotry. Glenn Beck has his own style, but basically does the same thing. Here's a guy who converted from Catholicism to Mormonism, and yet tries to convince his listeners that he is the next Billy Graham.

So it's become acceptable to verbally assault people who don't agree with your political view, belittle them, call them ugly names, and marginalize and exclude them from the democratic process because they don't hold the same view. It's become acceptable to shut down the government, or hold a chamber of congress hostage, even though its only a small minority that disagrees. And there are plenty of Christians who have trouble distinguishing between what is conservative and Biblical from the theological perspective, and how conservative, Biblical views can be twisted into conservative political perspectives to the point where the two things become indistinguishable. And somewhere in that mess is where the line into heresy is crossed. When a pastor or church leader has to suppress their political opinion or perspective, because there are people who believe they are committing a sin if they vote for the wrong person, then there is no personal freedom.

[Ed Pettibone]

[William Thornton]

If you don't like Limbaugh/Beck, don't listen. If you are a flaming lib and don't like that type of speech, organize and prevent others from hearing.

[Haruo]

I do wish (a) David had cited his source(s) so the LIE LIE LIE accusation wouldn't sound like it was coming from him and aimed at us (Timothy, me, maybe Neil or Dave R. or Bruce...), and (b) David had engaged in discussion instead of the drive-by approach (and let me hasten to say that I know that term has "firearm crime" connotations, but I am not suggesting any such thing happened here).

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Haruo]

[William Thornton]

[Sandy]

If you believe that, William, I've got deeds to several bridges I'd like to sell to you. Interesting that no one is trying to shut down Ted Cruz. Of course, the right wing media is quite careful to avoid reporting on those who disrupt the Democrats, though they've all had them.

Trump is a master at getting attention. Yeah, there are protesters. Anyone who has made the ludicrous statements that Trump has is going to draw protests. Every candidate does. But I think that the people who are inside his rallies disrupting events are paid by Trump's campaign to make a fuss in order to draw more attention to his campaign, and stir up more controversy. He can then assume a martyr complex, and get on this theme of liberals trying to shut down free speech.

I believe disrupting a political rally to push an agenda point is not only rude and inconsiderate, but it is an attempt to shut down free speech. The contrast between the way the Democrats handle these kinds of disruptions, however, and the way Trump does clearly shows that they have a much greater understanding of, and appreciation for, this basic constitutional right than he does.

[Stephen Fox]

Yes both were conservatives but As Baugh said In Sunday school class once at 2nd Houston, he considered himself a gentleman and Pressler was not.

Baugh reportedly asked Ed Young if they were to bring him to 2nd Houston would he get caught up in the fundamentalist mess. Young lied and said he would not. Now we have Jim Deloach's influence on Ted Cruz.

I think I may be the only person on this board to have read Thomas Powers print review of Wuthnow's Rough Country. It explored Atwater's "****** Memo". Now the term White Trash is under review as a major group to which Donald Trump appeals. It is the same card as played by Olin D Johnston and Strom Thurmond in textile politics of Upstate SC in the 40 and 50s.

Sandy and Thornton, listen to these 11 minutes of exquisite NPR reporting Sunday

http://www.wnyc.org/story/americas-long ... ory-class/

The likes of Pressler and Jesse Helms and Albert Lee Smith and the Takeover gurus and the Koch Bros and the Birch Society played the white trash card as it evolved through Atwater and Rove intersecting with Pressler and his Bircher friends designs on tax breaks for fossil fuels. It is an insidious business that swallowed abortion politics and his strong similarities to the politics Bonhoeffer resisted in Germany.
Again, see the Politics of Stupidity on page 341 of the Marsh bio.

Marshall Frady, Yates son, once said for all the silliness and burlesque of the SBC of the sixties it did provide a working class white religious southerner with incrementally enlightened and progressive leadership. And though not always perfectly as the likes of Randall Lolley and Will Campbell showed they loved the poor ignorant hard working folks in their congregation because Jesus loved them.

But when they got turned over to the Presslerites and Al Mohler and that cabal with a dim witted and lesser vision; well now John Baugh and the likes of Ike's and Nixon's great friend Charles E Daniel of FBC Greenville, SC we now have a choice between Trump and Cruz on the GOP Ticket and they with Abe Lincoln are vomitting on the other shore.