From Politico 8/19/15

[Ed Pettibone]

In an interview, Russell Moore, president of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, called the rise of the birthright citizenship debate “dark and demagogic.”

“The American people often disagree on what the best approach should be to fixing the immigration system,” Moore said. “But we have veered off now into a rhetorical targeting of immigrants themselves. The use of language such as ‘anchor babies’ is disgusting.”

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/08/d ... z3jTHnQZSk

[Dave Roberts]

I don't often agree with Moore, but this time he is absolutely right.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Dave Roberts]

Ed, there needs to be a path to citizenship for people who have been here for a time, a priority on keeping families together. The babies born here are citizens--PERIOD. If Trump thinks the words of the 14th Amendment are subject to abrogation in this matter, he may also believe the first 10 are that way or the 19th. Frankly, we already have a short path to citizenship that no one talks about. Join the military and see how rapidly you are trained for citizenship.

I live in an area that in the last census was 11% Hispanic. The largest problems in the community that they cause are from Saturday night drinking and occasional "machismo men" who beat up their significant others to prove their virility. There is very little drain on social service funds because they do not ask fearing deportation. They are hard workers who will take any job available and are sometimes paid below minimum wage. Most also pay taxes, Social Security on their wages, and certainly pay sales taxes in the stores.

The path to citizenship should be earned, but it should be available.

[Haruo]

Even though Russ Moore is mentioned prominently, I don't think this is a particularly Baptist topic per se, and so the appropriate place to discuss it is in the Politics forum. IMO

[Ed Pettibone]

[Sandy]

[John Sneed]

In my opinion the immigration debate breaks down like this ...

If you break into my house and sit down at my table and eat my food, you are still not a member of my family. The question of immigration reduces down to how do you deal with the criminal who has taken up residence in your house?

[Ed Pettibone]

[Lamar Wadsworth]

Someone once said that "fundamentalist religion can survive without a god, but it cannot survive without a devil.". Reactionary conservative politics is the same way. It has to have an enemy, an other who is not one of us, someone to demonize. There is no real difference between George Wallace ranting against "nigras" and "ppointy headed intellectuals" and Trump ranting against immigrants and "anchor babies."

[ET]

[William Thornton]

I go back to the Mayflower and am only 2% or so Neanderthal, The former from genealogy, the latter DNA. Blueblood all the way with just a smidge of knuckle-dragging. As best I can tell, my latest emigrant ancestor was late 18th century or so. Flick on the other hand, had people who walked over on the Bering land bridge.

Trump is right on one thing (and all of 'em say it): anything is meaningless unless the border is secure.

[Sandy]

If you go back to the period of time that the 14th amendment was written, and interpret what it meant to be "subject to the jurisdiction of its laws," that included basically anyone who was on US soil. Diplomats are under different jurisdiction, and that's not a valid comparison.

Interesting analogy from John Sneed. Taken to its logical conclusion, then, the Native Americans not only had their house broken into, and their dinner table sacked, but the uninvited guests stole their land, their ability to earn a livelihood consistent with their tradition, exploited their resources, destroyed their culture, and devalued their humanity.

The idea that we live in a "society where there are many who are obligated to pay for so many needs of those who have little" is a standard argument of conservatives when they don't want to do something. The fact is that most illegal immigrants are here to work, and scrape by as best they can, with very little actually being provided by those who are "obligated" to pay for it. And most of them would find productive work that most other Americans won't stoop to do if they had legal resident status.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Sandy]

It doesn't matter that no one has defended what was done to native Americans, but that bit of our history more or less negates a philosophical and moral argument from the perspective that there is now some sort of definitive boundary of privilege that allows the exclusion of those who were not fortunate enough to have been born at the time that definition of "American" was forming. American immigration policy has grown increasingly restrictive over time, with pernicious, selective laws designed, at various times depending on circumstances, to exclude the "tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to be free" and favor the wealthy who had money to invest. There have been some particularly black chapters in our history regarding draconian American immigration policy. If you were a Jew attempting to escape Nazi Europe at just about any point during that twelve year nightmare, the United States had policy that was not only restrictive, but openly hostile, refusing to grant political asylum based on their "religious" status.

From a technical standpoint, yeah, people here illegally are breaking the law. But considering what I've said here, the moral argument is a pretty weak one, especially since some of the extremist right wingers, like Ted Cruz, are advocating a process which would repeal the law, and then engage in mass deportations, regardless of circumstances. On this issue, conservatives are really proving themselves to be Un-American, favoring dismantling the constitution, and expressing a view of the sanctity of life, and of the value of humanity which is in direct opposition to a Biblical worldview.

[Sandy]

[Haruo]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

My brother is the family tree expert. But the material he has sent me proves that I've got so many different ethnicities in my background that I can easily claim to be English, Irish, Scottish, German and several branches in other nordic groups. At times in US history we have discrminated against several nationalities that are represented in that tree. "Irish need not apply" was once posted on store fronts. German Americans changed their last names to anglicize them during wars with Germany to avoid persecution even though they may have been here for generations.

All this is to say that if the US had restricted immigation based on ethnicity there are several points in my family tree where I might have ended up not being born in America. If because of my ethnicity being born here wasn't enough I might not be a US citizen today.

Here is Sioux City the Latino population is nearer to 25% with the population across the river in South Sioux City, NE being nearer to 50/50. I don't know how many of them are here legally or illegally. But none of them are taking food off my table as Rev. Sneed has suggested. The are working jobs, many of them that the rest of us don't want, and earning their own keep. I gather some are sending money back to the country of origin to support hungry families. Many of them are simply looking for the American dream the same way my ancestors did when they got off the boat.

I continue to be appalled that anyone is even taking Donald Trump seriously. The very fact that he is the front runner in the GOP now is a huge embarassment to the US. Before this election cycle, as much as I tend to dislike the GOP, I'd have never believed it if someone had told me that either major party would do any less than laugh him off the stage.

We are in a very dangerous place in our nation when racism, sexism, and general nastiness can get a man to the front of a pack in any major US party in the year 2015. I had thought we were well past that and I'm very saddened that it appears we aren't. I would have thought Bozo the clown would have had a better shot at the presidency.

[Haruo]

[Haruo]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Kai Steppan]

Well, i`m not an american, maybe i will be one someday, nobody knows the ways of the future.

So it`s not exactly my topic and i don`t know how big illegal immigration is a topic in the United States but i would like to give my opinion to this topic.
Also we are dealing with a similar topic in Germany and Europe in general:

In my opinion there needs to be a certain order in immigration. Even such a big nation like USA can`t deal with to many immigrants at once.
It is not done with giving an immigrant, an economic migrant or an asylum seeker (last two are main-topics in Germany and Europe) a blanket and some clothes and a place to sleep.
Especially when the person is not educated enough to find a job in short time.

There needs to be done a lot more, it is a very complex topic. So one, the citizens, the society, the government, have to think and to organize.

On the other hand:

No wall, no border in the whole history of mankind was able to stop immigrants or refugees, refugees for whatever reason, permanent.
Not even the most famous one, the big chinese wall.

By the way, in many countries, the local economy often made use (and still do so) of illegal immigrants, asylum seekers and similar persons.

When it is about granting citizenship, i would say, for Germany, but maybe also for USA, there should be ways for becoming a legal citizen.
Because the people, unless you throw out every illegal, are there in the country. They are humans, no matter they are illegal in formal ways.
And one day they will claim participation directly or indirectly through their raw numbers.

Wouldn`t it be better to integrate at least the ones willing to learn and work in the society in a way acceptable for everybody?
And maybe also establishing a concept of education to equip the people with the abilities to build a modern, democratic state and a working economy at home?
I imagine (for Germany but maybe it is also worth to consider in USA) not to just pushing away the people which the citizens of a country can`t deal - but to help them becoming able to help themselves.

[Ed Pettibone]