From Politico 8/19/15

[Sandy]

Well, first of all Ed, the idea that illegal immigration will lead to a collapse of the economy is nothing more than extremist talking points. Connecting the concept of "protecting the economy" to providing some sort of assistance and help to those who are here illegally, especially if they have children who are American citizens by constitutional principle, is a straw man argument. And from a Christian perspective, if you want to point out the passages of scripture where Jesus reveals to us that the protection of our financial interests, and those of our government, is more important than providing a cup of water in his name, I'll be glad to hear your interpretation of such.

We are in a period of nearly unprecedented economic growth, private sector job growth, and we are seeing some of the lowest numbers of illegal immigration since the early 70's. And we can't come up with a reasonable solution to provide temporary relief while working to find a reasonable solution to slow or stop illegal immigration by working on the root problems? I think the selfishness, along with a hefty side of bigotry and prejudice, is on the side of those who want to build a wall to keep people out.

[John Sneed]

Hello again. I will reprise my initial post.

First, to clear somethings up. It is no secret among the readers and posters on this site that I am a very conservative Baptist. I am a Calvinist of the 5 point variety. I call myself a "Reformed (after the Reformation) Baptist. I rarely post because, well, since you know where I stand theologically and politically, you know in advance what I am likely to say on any given topic. Now, truthfully, some of your folks hold views so divergent from mine that I think some you live in alternate universes. That is only partially in jest. But for all that, I bear none of you, not one, any ill will.

I am retired from pastoring these days and devoted myself to going back to school. I am currently working on a master's degree in history with the intent of finishing my PhD in education and spending the last years of my life teaching at the university level. This is my hope.

On to the current discussion. There is no doubt the introduction of Anglos to North America could have been done better or differently. But that was a few hundred years ago and I will leave that debate to smarter historians than me.

I have no issue at all with those immigrants who came to America legally and worked their way through the system to become American citizens. To those citizens I say, "My fellow Americans, welcome to the family." But it is an insult to these very people who have sacrificed to do things right to give to illegal immigrants all the benefits of citizenship, even special rights, without the legal process that goes with it all. When I watch some of the commentary on the news, it seems many illegals think they are owed American citizenship by virtue of making it across the border without being arrested by INS or the Border Patrol.

I have found this debate/discussion to be interesting. I am looking forward to seeing how it progresses. If I do not post too often, these history classes are tough. Apparently, historians expect results. ;)

[Sandy]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Sandy]

[ET]

[KeithE]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

But National and Nationalism aren't the same thing.

[Ed Pettibone]

[KeithE]

The nationalism I’m talking about is the belief that one nationality considers itself superior and deserves more privilege than another nationality. And that is exactly what some/most anti-immigration pundits are trumpeting (no pun intended).

Jesus (and Paul) broke down those barriers.

[Sandy]

[Ed Pettibone]

[KeithE]

[Ed Pettibone]

Keith: Jesus broke down the nationalism of his day (Jewish people thought themselves more privileged in God’s sight than the Samaritans, Gentiles and Romans for just being of Jewish heritage). Luke tells the story of how Peter had an attitude adjustment about his nationalism in Acts 10:9-48. Paul summed it up to say "we are all one Christ” (Gal 3:28). I’m being shaped by these events not vice-versa.

Ed: What do you mean by Jesus broke down Nationalism> He Said "I have not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it", Jesus did take the gospel to all but he was not a political activist. Hebrew nationalism continued well beyond the earthly life of Jesus.

Keith: Many in today’s anti-immigration furor believe Hispanics are for the most part inferior and their presence in this country spoils us. Trump plays to this by saying they are frequently “rapists”, “murderers”, and job stealers. I trust you are above that sort of attitude and will ignore his demagoguery here.

Ed: What anti immigration furor? There is strong opposition to illegal intrusion, however I know no one who is "anti Immigration", and I am aware of no general "furor". It seems a lot of folk are impressed with Trump I have heard Trump rattle off a number of anti social activities and I have seen a good many reports of illegal Hispanics from Mexico who have been arrested in our area for drug trafficking. I do not believe that all illegals are involved is such activity but neither do I believe most of them will risk outing the bad apples.

Keith: Others in the anti-immigration movement just feel that national boundaries should be enforced as a matter of law (I agree and that is why reform is necessary, hopefully with a more “open” and “accepting” stance). Others feel like they sap our resources (and we are more entitled to those resources). To the latter I say most illegals perform work and pay taxes (like SS, sales, income, property) some of which (SS) they will never receive returns from. It is unclear whether or not these illegals are a net positive or negative in terms of US economics.

Ed; It is double talk when you say " Others in the anti-immigration movement just feel that national boundaries should be enforced as a matter of law"
Those who "... just feel that national boundaries should be enforced as a matter of law" can not logically be put in any anti immigration movement, immigration is permitted as a matter of law. I do tend to be among those who are persuaded that illegals do sap our resources.

No nationality has inherent claims to being superior, so I cannot answer your leading question - "what other country country do you consider superior to the U.S.”. As to your question "why don't you move there?”, the short answer - friends and family. Somehow I feel that question is more a suggestion than a question.

Hope you have a better day.[/quote]

[Tim Bonney]

[Haruo]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

For Ed -

There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. Gal. 3:28 NRSV

[Ed Pettibone]

[Sandy]

In most cases, borders between countries are lines on the ground. Traditional and cultural boundaries which are actual barriers to travel, such as the oceans, rivers, and mountain ranges, which were once pretty difficult to cross, are now easily crossed due to transportation technology.

I can't think of anyplace in the world where a political boundary that separates a wealthy, prosperous country with abundant economic opportunity from one where the poverty level is high, opportunity is limited, and the government is oppressive and corrupt, that is not a sieve through which thousands of literal refugees cross, seeking a better life for themselves and their families. Of course, that kind of migration also provides cover for criminal activity, but generally, it is either political or economic oppression that prompts the movement. Southeastern Europe, the trek from Turkey and the Middle East into Central Europe, has always been a problem and it has only become worse since Yugoslavia dissolved. The boundary between Austria and Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Yugoslavia was a major entry point for refugees from the Soviet Bloc for years. It's mostly in the mountains, heavily guarded, and yet the number of people who crossed over during the "iron curtain" era was proportionately higher than our problem along the southern border. The Berlin wall was not only a barrier with electrified fence along the top, and armed guards so close together that they could see each other (and a tremendous drain on the economy of the GDR), but over 5,000 people got over, under, or through it during its existence (including many with US CIA help). Altogether, about 2.3 million East Germans crossed the heavily guarded border to the west during the existence of the GDR, almost 20% of its entire population. Today, the problem in Europe is refugees from African countries crossing the Mediterranean. Interestingly enough, CBF has missionary personnel working in refugee communities in southern Spain, where large numbers of illegal immigrants from Africa are located.

You can complain about it, exaggerate the impact of it, claim that it will ruin the economy, use it as a political wedge and claim you have the solution to it, or to blame your predecesor for not doing anything about it, but it does not change the fact that this is a problem that will continue to exist as long as there are people who are oppressed, whether politically or economically, and they are able to get to a place where they have an opportunity to change their circumstances. Governments can do as they please, but I'm going to be supportive of a solution that 1) considers the people who are seeking opportunity or assylum as human beings who are, in God's eyes, equal to myself, and 2) is willing to consider out of the box, non-traditional, solutions which work on resolving the root problems, relieving the suffering, and opening the door to allowing people who want to work and contribute to do so.

What we are seeing now, particularly on the Republican side of the aisle, is selfish bigotry.

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]