Johathan Gruber

[David Flick]

[Haruo]

In my case, I don't defend him because I've barely ever even heard of him, and I'm not clear on what he needs defending about, nor whether he deserves either your term for him or defence. Your source doesn't appear to be interested in factual reporting, and I don't trust it as a source of unbiased paraphrase.

[David Flick]

[KeithE]

[David Flick]

[William Thornton]

Yeah, shameless...and this wasn't the ihatebush forum for 8 years....saw Bigfoot in my back yard today.

[KeithE]

[KeithE]

[David Flick]

[KeithE]

[David Flick]

[KeithE]

[ET]

I'd be very much interested if Mr. Gruber would care to provide a broader excerpt of his talks just so we could decide for ourselves whether or not the remarks were out of context. I have no reason to believe they were, especially since there's another clip of him talking about the "Cadillac tax" on company health plans and how Americans were to "stupid" to understand the difference. Taxing the citizens directly wasn't politically workable. Taxing them indirectly through their insurance providers wouldn't be clear to them. Similarly, politicians can get away with taxing Americans by taxing "corporations" because most Americans don't stop to think that when politicians tax a corporation, they are just indirectly taxing individual Americans.

Gruber's comments go right along with Pelosi's statement some years back that "we've got to pass the bill to find out what's in it". Gruber doesn't do himself any favors by trying to spin his comments into saying that the GOP is trying to confuse Americans so they don't realize "so that they don’t understand that the subsidies they’re getting is because of the law". Sorry, Gruber....you're the one trying to confuse things. You got caught in a moment of honesty and now you're trying to weasel out of it.

I'll also point out the part in the clip where he talks about it not being political advantageous to mention that healthy people will be taxed to pay for the insurance of less healthy people. Not sure how one can argue that is "out of context". It's the precise way the thing works. Why else mandate people have insurance, especially the young who often don't buy it? 'cause the young will be buying health insurance that a huge part of them will never use, so they're subsidizing older folks who incur more expenses.

As Mr. Gruber has pointed out, I got "taxed" on Obamacare by having my out-of-pocket deductibles raised more than 100% so that my company didn't get dinged with the "Cadillac tax" due to them being too generous with their health care provisions. Obama also taxed me by limiting the amount of pre-tax money I can put into my HSA - capping it at $2500 a year. So now, if I anticipate a surgery (such as the possible rotator cuff for my wife), I can't jack up my HSA contributions for 2015 and pay for it with pre-tax dollars. Nope, I get to pay for anything above $2500 in medical expenses with "after tax" dollars.

In any insurance scheme, one way to reduce premiums is to increase the out-of-pocket expenses and deductibles. My deductible has more than doubled....thus, the premiums don't need to increase as much. Obamacare means I've got to pay $500-1000 more a year before most coverages kick in at the full amount. Thanks for nothing, Barack. I suggest you troll around for the stories about folks that have Obamacare "insurance", but aren't using it because they've got $5000 deductibles and such.

As for the harm done to the country due to the "relentless attack on Obama", I saw no such concern for the relentless attacks on Bush. Any harm done to the country is due to Obama being a bad leader. Campaigning is his talent, not leading. He might be able to organize a few things in a community and read flowery phrases from a teleprompter, but he can't lead a world power.

Don't have much concern of an "Obama hate machine". There was one for Reagan and one for Bush, so no big deal.

[KeithE]

[William Thornton]

Let Gruber keep on flapping his jaws - as long as he want, as much as he desires. He can only help those who oppose the ACA and he can only harm those who favor it.

[Dave Roberts]

I never heard of Gruber, but he sounds like one more disgruntled employee flapping his gums in the hope of getting a book deal to pad his own pockets. I noticed that Fox News had to find a 2009 speech from Nancy Pelosi to find someone from the Democrats who had mentioned him.

[Haruo]

I have to admit that I haven't seen any evidence of Gruber being a liar - the quotes from him I've seen, including those cited by David, all sound like truthful statements (especially from the Obama-bashing viewpoint) except the one about the stupidity of the American people, and I haven't seen enough context to judge that one. And I haven't seen any justification for calling him the "Architect of Obamacare", which was the characterization used by David's initial source to make the guy seem more newsworthy than he is. I agree more or less with William's conclusion that Gruber is aiding the anti-Obama(care) camp, though not with the desirability of such aid.

I find it interesting that in the midterms that led to a Republican landslide in Congress, in which supposedly only grumpy old white men voted, every state that had a minimum wage raise on the ballot -- and they were not high-priced blue enclaves like Seattle -- passed it, and all but one who had marijuana decriminalization or legalization on the ballot passed it. Reality is not one-(red)-hued.

[Sandy]

I see that the source cited by David for the original article is Red State. Now there's a truthful, non-biased, non-partisan, news source known for its accuracy, adherence to strict journalistic standards, and quality reporting. And if you believe that, I have oceanfront property in Arizona, and a beachfront resort in Kansas to sell to you, cheap.

No wonder it was difficult to track down all the alleged quotes and statements, and even Fox had to go back half a decade for any mention of a reference. It's like trying to discuss something with Rush Limbaugh as a primary source. There are no related facts.

Should have figured.

[David Flick]

[KeithE]

[Haruo]

You're right, David, lots of people are using the "Architect of Obamacare" label, but my impression is it means "An", not "The", architect of Obamacare. I could be wrong. I know Obama didn't write the ACA. And I know Gruber was involved in the process.

[Sandy]

The insurance lobby is almost as powerful, and as well funded as the oil company lobby. They weren't as prolific in the 2014 mid terms as they have been, largely because the profits of health insurers have been boosted by Obamacare. But when you start talking single-payer, government operated, health security, you'll see more campaign contributions that the total of the national debt. Americans will always pay double for health care as long as there's profit margin in insurance and medical services.

[KeithE]

[David Flick]

[Stephen Fox]

And Flick ought to have better things to do than get caught up in the carnival of Fox News and Roger Ailes. Falls in, Flick does with the joke today I picked up from the sermons at the Duke Chapel.

Geology test, What three things can you find on earth and NOT on the Moon. One lost student at Duke answered in 1986: "Roller Blades, Bruce Sprinsteen and the Republican Party!"