More Thoughts on a Living Wage

[Sandy]

[William Thornton]

So, am and pa merchant better watch out just like Wal Mart?

[Bruce Gourley]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: So Bruce are you one who would advocate the the exemption on clergy housing be eliminated. After all most of clergy are paid by small corporations affiliated with large to huge denominational corporations.

[Dave Roberts]

[Sandy]

[Bruce Gourley]

Ed and Dave: I have for some time been on record for advocating the elimination of all tax breaks for churches and for eliminating all tax breaks (including housing allowances and social security exceptions) for ministers (I forsook my tax breaks as an ordained minister years ago, and continue to do so). This is the stance of Baptists prior to the 20th century, and I think it is the proper stance. Churches/mosques/etc. need to be able to stand on their own without government favoritism.

I realize this is a highly unpopular position, and do not expect others (Baptist or otherwise) to share my convictions.

Increasingly, municipalities are complaining that local churches are sapping their communities of needed resources by not paying taxes, and I think we will see more attempts to eliminate local tax breaks for houses of worship. It seems to me that churches/mosques/etc. are leeching off their communities (rather than making a positive impact within their communities) by not paying taxes.

In addition, the clergy housing allowance (due to many instances of abuse) is now called into question by the IRS and may well be repealed at some point in the future.

For religious entities in which religious worship does not take place, I advocate continued non-profit treatment on par with other non-profit organizations.

[Sandy]

I've never understood the self-employment/housing allowance status accorded to churches as "non taxable" entitles. I lost a year and a half of social security vestment because a church treasurer, who was actually a state revenue agent and should have known better, didn't allocate a housing allowance correctly.

[William Thornton]

I have blogged often on our Sacred Clergy Tax Break, the housing allowance, and favor a cap. Gummit should not allow some to exclude from income taxes hundreds of thousands of dollars annually. The IRS has to follow the law on it but an outside group has had lower court success in challenging its constitutionality.

Now that some churches have health clubs, bookstores, coffee bars along with fabulous facilities where admission is charges, it is increasingly difficult to justify churches not being subject to property taxes. I cannot say I blame gummit entities for cracking down.

If the HA were eliminated from clergy and if churches began to be taxed on their property it would surely hasten the death of thousands of small congregations. Maybe that would be good in the long run, I don't know.

I do not share Bruce's practice on relinquishing tax breaks (I doubt much is available to him unless he has clergy income) but can appreciate his principled stand.

[KeithE]

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

Actually, the exemption from income tax on minister's housing predates most housing allowances. It was originally a parsonage allowance, and no money changed hands at all. Housing allowances began to replace parsonages primarily in the 1950's and 1960's. Social Security was a compromise when there was no money changing hands.

The idea that churches could not be taxed went out the window when churches employed other staff beyond pastors and paid half of Social Security as any other employer would have done. Ministers still suffer from this fiction.

The abuses of those receiving massive amounts make William's proposal of a cap popular, but again it violates the principle of separation of church and state with the state setting the amounts the can be properly designated. Along with the housing allowance, the military quarters' allowances may need to go. While lower ranking enlisted personnel live in trailer parks and cheap apartments off base, the higher ranks build nice nest-eggs in their houses.

[William Thornton]

Under a cap, the state would limit the amount of clergy income excluded from income taxes. I'm not seeing how this entangles church and state more than at the present. The HA is already limited by other means. I see no possibility politically of cutting military benefits, including the HA.the highest rank in the most expensive posting already is capped at $50k or so.

[Sandy]

Regardless of a cap, isn't a housing allowance actually creating a situation in which the government actually compensates a minister for the church? If we are truly separate, that shouldn't be happening. I believe taxing a church creates an untenable link that compromises church state separation, but so does the housing allowance. A church should compensate its paid vocational ministers without government assistance. The only reason it would be a hardship now is that we've gotten used to depending on the system.

[KeithE]

[KeithE]

[Ed Pettibone]

[KeithE]