Al Mohler gaming the Kentucky senate race

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Al Mohler gaming the Kentucky senate race

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:29 pm

http://religiondispatches.org/why-al-mo ... e-debates/

I hope folks wise as a serpent and harmless as a Dove challenge Mohler's tactics well versed in the recent revelations of Randall Balmer on Carter's experience with this cabal; Packer's easily googled New Yorker piece on the ascendancy of Reagan; and Norm Ornstein's piece on the Lost soul of the GOP not to mention the bleaching article I just referenced in the Life and Liberty thread; and Christiane's Stansell's denfinitive piece Holy War in the New Republic on the "mendacity" in the perfected politics of abortion strategy
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Re: Al Mohler gaming the Kentucky senate race

Postby Sandy » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:54 am

Of course, in any article offering a religious-political opinion, someone is going to drop in the word "fundamentalist" somewhere. Neither Mohler, nor Southern Seminary, nor the Kentucky Baptist Convention, are "fundamentalist."

Beyond that little bit of bias, I'm not particularly surprised at this development. McConnell is in trouble, especially if you take a look at the independent, non-partisan polling data, and his re-election, which is critical to any possible hope the Republicans have of getting a Senate majority, is looking more and more unlikely. Turnout is going to be the key, and with the United Mine Workers endorsement of Grimes, McConnell doesn't have a core constituency to tip the balance his way beyond Evangelical Conservatives. The moderate Republican wing in the state seems to be interested in getting rid of McConnell, and willing to stay home on election day to let Grimes do it for them.

The name dropping and your attempted connectionalism, Stephen, doesn't help your point. You sometimes make some good observations and post some credible articles, but your insistence on mentioning your pseudo-intellectual cabal distracts from the main point. At least you didn't work Molly Worthen into this post. :)
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Re: Al Mohler gaming the Kentucky senate race

Postby KeithE » Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:09 pm

Sandy wrote:Of course, in any article offering a religious-political opinion, someone is going to drop in the word "fundamentalist" somewhere. Neither Mohler, nor Southern Seminary, nor the Kentucky Baptist Convention, are "fundamentalist.”


By what definition of “fundamentalist” does Mohler not qualify as being one.

The usual definition is belief in the inerrancy of the Bible and Mohler certainly does. Read this.

Sometimes it is said a “fundamentalist" is a biblical inerrantist who is not content in just having that viewpoint themselves but insists on “fighting” those who do not believe so. Mohler has certainly done this and continues to do so. His deep involvement on the takeover of Southern Seminary certainly counts as being a fighting fundamentalist.

So what is your definition? - belong to some denomination with “Fundamental ... “ in its title?? Being dispensational??

Sandy wrote:Beyond that little bit of bias, I'm not particularly surprised at this development. McConnell is in trouble, especially if you take a look at the independent, non-partisan polling data, and his re-election, which is critical to any possible hope the Republicans have of getting a Senate majority, is looking more and more unlikely. Turnout is going to be the key, and with the United Mine Workers endorsement of Grimes, McConnell doesn't have a core constituency to tip the balance his way beyond Evangelical Conservatives. The moderate Republican wing in the state seems to be interested in getting rid of McConnell, and willing to stay home on election day to let Grimes do it for them.


What are these “independent, non-partisan polls" you are referring to?
McConell is ahead in most polls.
The only poll that has Grimes up is the Republican “Magellan Strategies”. It is within a few percentage points.

And what real evidence do you have that “the moderate Republican wing in the state” is interested in getting rid of McConnell. It may be correct (and on balance I hope Grimes will win) but I’m from Missouri (iow, show me).
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Re: Al Mohler gaming the Kentucky senate race

Postby Sandy » Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:34 pm

The two most recent Kentucky newspaper polls I've seen, the Bowling Green Daily News,and the Courier Journal from Louisville both had Grimes at +3 Friday. I believe Nate Silver has moved the odds in that race to 50-50, as he did for Michelle Nunn as well. The only polls in which McConnell leads are the traditionally GOP leaning polls that factor in things like "voter enthusiasm" and previous voting trends, and even in those, he's inside the margin of error.

The term "Fundamentalist" is both self-described, and defined by those who have distinguished a set of "fundamentals of the faith" that they believe universally apply to the true church. These include 1)the belief that the true church, and the lineage of true believer's baptism by immersion can be traced through a series of dissenters all the way back to John the Baptist's baptism of Jesus, 2) Believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of the verbal, plenary inspired 66 books of the old and new Testament, 3) the "preserved word of God in English" as the KJV, 4) acceptance of no other canon of scripture except the Massoretic text, 5) the seal of salvation is baptism and membership in only those churches which are doctrinally correct and have "received" the word of God. Mohler, and 99% of the rest of the SBC aren't there at all.
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Re: Al Mohler gaming the Kentucky senate race

Postby KeithE » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:01 pm

Sandy wrote:The two most recent Kentucky newspaper polls I've seen, the Bowling Green Daily News,and the Courier Journal from Louisville both had Grimes at +3 Friday. I believe Nate Silver has moved the odds in that race to 50-50, as he did for Michelle Nunn as well. The only polls in which McConnell leads are the traditionally GOP leaning polls that factor in things like "voter enthusiasm" and previous voting trends, and even in those, he's inside the margin of error.

The term "Fundamentalist" is both self-described, and defined by those who have distinguished a set of "fundamentals of the faith" that they believe universally apply to the true church. These include 1)the belief that the true church, and the lineage of true believer's baptism by immersion can be traced through a series of dissenters all the way back to John the Baptist's baptism of Jesus, 2) Believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of the verbal, plenary inspired 66 books of the old and new Testament, 3) the "preserved word of God in English" as the KJV, 4) acceptance of no other canon of scripture except the Massoretic text, 5) the seal of salvation is baptism and membership in only those churches which are doctrinally correct and have "received" the word of God. Mohler, and 99% of the rest of the SBC aren't there at all.

Thanks for the hints of where those polls might be. I’ll check that out. I am following that race.

As for your definition of “fundamentalist”:
I’ll agree that Mohler and 99%+ of SBC believers are not “fundamentalist”, if that is what the term means. But I seriously doubt it means that in modern usage especially those items highlighted in red above.

Traditionally since ~1900 the 5 fundamentals of the faith are identified as:
1) biblical inerrancy,
2) the Virgin birth of Jesus,
3) substitutionary atonement,
4) the literal resurrection of Christ,
5) and the Second Coming of Christ.
Source
I would think that Mohler agrees with all of those.
Quite different from your list.

These days biblical inerrancy (and perhaps a stridency against any deviation from local religious norms) is intended by the term.

But the term today is not limited to KJV only/“Trail of Blood" lineage from John the Baptist/Massoreric text only adherents.

Mike Greer (the writer of Fox’s Religious Dispatches article - that article you derided for using the term) did not define what he meant by “fundamentalist” but he certainly meant to include Mohler. Here is what Greer said the only time he used the term “fundamentalist” in his article:
Mohler’s goal may be to rally sluggish evangelicals to vote Republican in November. Both McConnell and Mohler are on edge these days. McConnell’s continued status as a state senator is obviously questionable. Mohler has also taken some hits to his supremacist agenda recently and his status among Southern Baptists may be coming into question.

- Recently a second Kentucky Baptist College acted to free itself from Kentucky Baptists’ (i.e. Mohler’s) larger fundamentalist agenda by announcing its independence from state convention control.
-
-
-
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underline mine.

Fundamentalist may sound like a derogatory word to you, but to many religious conservatives it is a badge of honor.

I’ll agree that a "fundamentalist agenda” is a phrase tainted with disapproval.
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Re: Al Mohler gaming the Kentucky senate race

Postby Sandy » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:54 pm

Those are doctrinal points which define a very broad, and large segment of Evangelical Conservatives, of many denominations, and most non-denominationals, not fundamentalist Southern Baptists. I would bet that the collective attendance in American churches I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find more than a small percentage of CBF'ers who don't accept all of your points. The term "Fundamentalist" is a derisive term used by moderate Baptists to attempt to separate out their denominational-political perspective, and gain more followers of their own. It was never applied to Southern Baptist conservatives, at least, not to as many as turned out to be conservative, prior to the 1979 controversy in that context. Mohler isn't a fundamentalist, and no fundamentalist who wears that as a badge would see the president of Southern Seminary as anything less than an apostate, misled liberal. He's a conservative, and a Calvinist.

The segment of Baptists that are defined as Fundamentalist aren't exclusively KJV, though I doubt you'd find a single church among that self designation that doesn't consider the KJV as "the preserved Word of God in English" and rejects members who don't believe that. Nor would you find many, if any, non-landmarkers when it comes to marrying Baptist origins with John the Baptist. Inerrancy defines the entire Evangelical movement, from the conservative side of most mainliners all the way to the non-denominational megachurch movement, and everything in between. Verbal plenary inspiration, and premillenial dispensationalism defines Fundamentalism.
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Re: Al Mohler gaming the Kentucky senate race

Postby KeithE » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:22 pm

Sandy wrote:Those are doctrinal points which define a very broad, and large segment of Evangelical Conservatives, of many denominations, and most non-denominationals, not fundamentalist Southern Baptists. I would bet that the collective attendance in American churches I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find more than a small percentage of CBF'ers who don't accept all of your points. The term "Fundamentalist" is a derisive term used by moderate Baptists to attempt to separate out their denominational-political perspective, and gain more followers of their own. It was never applied to Southern Baptist conservatives, at least, not to as many as turned out to be conservative, prior to the 1979 controversy in that context. Mohler isn't a fundamentalist, and no fundamentalist who wears that as a badge would see the president of Southern Seminary as anything less than an apostate, misled liberal. He's a conservative, and a Calvinist.

The segment of Baptists that are defined as Fundamentalist aren't exclusively KJV, though I doubt you'd find a single church among that self designation that doesn't consider the KJV as "the preserved Word of God in English" and rejects members who don't believe that. Nor would you find many, if any, non-landmarkers when it comes to marrying Baptist origins with John the Baptist. Inerrancy defines the entire Evangelical movement, from the conservative side of most mainliners all the way to the non-denominational megachurch movement, and everything in between. Verbal plenary inspiration, and premillenial dispensationalism defines Fundamentalism.


Sandy we come from different worlds where words have differing meanings.

By “Those” I assume you mean the 5 fundamentals I mentioned:
1) biblical inerrancy,
2) the Virgin birth of Jesus,
3) substitutionary atonement,
4) the literal resurrection of Christ,
5) and the Second Coming of Christ.

In my experience with CBFers, most do not believe in biblical inerrancy but some do. Many have other views than “substitutionary” atonement but I would not know a %. And most have a nuanced view of the Second Coming of Jesus as being more like “justice will prevail” in some manner (not definitively rapture-based or pre mill/postmill/amill or concerned about dating these events whatever they might be). Probably most go along with the Virgin Birth and the physical resurrection of Jesus.

Many self-described evangelicals favor the softer version of biblical authority being "infallibility in matters of faith and practice" or the "only perfect rule in all matters pertaining to faith, doctrine and conduct” in place of inerrancy in all matters (as my home denomination - the Evangelical Covenant Church of America - does. Read here).
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