Lie Ability

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Lie Ability

Postby David Flick » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:06 pm

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It's obvious that Senator Belfry is a Liberal Democrat, i.e. the same stripe as Barak Obama & Hillary Clinton... :D
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby Sandy » Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:25 pm

Well, as far as "lie ability" goes, I don't think even Senator Belfry could beat Dick Cheney and George W. Bush.
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby Timothy Bonney » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:46 pm

David,

You do realize that most of the people who are a part of the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC are ardent Republicans don't you? You think those folks are some how better than Barack Obama and the Clintons? I sure don't see it.
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby David Flick » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:19 pm

Sandy wrote:Well, as far as "lie ability" goes, I don't think even Senator Belfry could beat Dick Cheney and George W. Bush.

      That's a laugher! :lol: :lol:
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby David Flick » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:26 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:David,

You do realize that most of the people who are a part of the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC are ardent Republicans don't you? You think those folks are some how better than Barack Obama and the Clintons? I sure don't see it.

    Yep, I sure do... Way better... As sorry as the SBC takeover gang was, they were light years more honest than Barack Obama and both Clintons... My opinion of Obama & the Clintons is virtually the same as Sandy's opinion of Dick Chaney & George Bush... :D
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby Timothy Bonney » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:13 am

Wow David. Makes no sense to me voting with the same folks who trashed the SBC and chased you out of your job. But hey, I also don't understand why Sandy is a Democrat given how conservative he is otherwise.
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby Haruo » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:31 am

Tangled webs, all of us.
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby Haruo » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:38 am

David, I would like to use a couple maybe three of the songs from Tsese-Ma'heone- Nemeotȯtse in a shapenote tunebook I intend to publish next summer. Do you know how I can best contact the heirs and assigns of Belle Wilson Rouse to ask permission to use "Jesus Netavovehone"? (The others are by Rodolphe Petter, and look like almost certainly public domain at this point.)
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby Sandy » Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:13 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:Wow David. Makes no sense to me voting with the same folks who trashed the SBC and chased you out of your job. But hey, I also don't understand why Sandy is a Democrat given how conservative he is otherwise.


A couple of reasons. One, the Republicans have lied through their teeth, but have delivered next to nothing in the way of promises related to conservative social issues. But the few issues that they use to attract conservative Christians are just bones they throw to get votes. Sanctity of human life goes way beyond the murder of fetuses. Republican economic and tax policy, on the other hand, creates exactly the kind of injustice that God speaks against in the Bible, not only through the teachings of Jesus, but through direct revelation in the Old Testament.

Then there's the greatest crime ever perpetrated in American history, the Iraq War, the overthrow of a sovereign country without provocation or reason, and the huge lie told to Congress and the American people to instigate it. Dick Cheney and George W. Bush ordered the CIA and other intelligence agencies to either find, or invent, evidence to convince Congress that attacking Iraq was legitimate, and to connect it to Al Qaida and the 9-11 attack. The evidence is very clear that they lied through their teeth deliberately, as everyone from Colin Powell on down through the CIA and FBI has testified. How can you support the politicians who won't hold their own accountable?
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby David Flick » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:27 pm

Haruo wrote:David, I would like to use a couple maybe three of the songs from Tsese-Ma'heone- Nemeotȯtse in a shapenote tunebook I intend to publish next summer. Do you know how I can best contact the heirs and assigns of Belle Wilson Rouse to ask permission to use "Jesus Netavovehone"? (The others are by Rodolphe Petter, and look like almost certainly public domain at this point.)

    That sounds like great project, Haruo. I haven't a clue how to contact the heirs and assigns of Belle Wilson Rouse. I moved last September and my Cheyenne language stuff is packed and in a storage building. It uses the tune of "Amazing Grace," so there shouldn't be any problem on that count. The words aren't a translation of "Amazing Grace." Rather it's a entirely different some sung to the Tune of "Amazing Grace."

    As I recall, the hymn book was published by the Mennonites. I think the book was published by Mennonite Press, Inc out of Newton, Kansas. I purchased 40 of the hymnals for the Watonga church and went through these people to get them. You might give it a try to go through the publishing house to get further information.

    The Petter hymns may well be public domain. I don't know. The entire collection of hymns in the book have been, at one time or another, copied and republished by scores of Cheyenne churches of all stripes through the years. I still have a mimeographed copy of about 20 Cheyenne hymns which my home church (Hammon Indian Baptist Church
    [SBC]) put together when I was in high school. And that was nearly 60 years ago, believe it or not...

    Sorry I can't be more help to you.
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby KeithE » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:13 am

David Flick wrote:.
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It's obvious that Senator Belfry is a Liberal Democrat, i.e. the same stripe as Barak Obama & Hillary Clinton... :D
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David is continuing his comic book attack approach to arriving at truth this time about a couple of succesful Democratic politicians and by extension “liberal Democrats”.

If you have a point to make David, you might want to give a permanent link to your link above and talk to that - that is if you want to break your longstanding claim that you ‘refrain from giving political comment’.

The comic strip Shoe has a regular, fictional character Senator Baston D. Belfry.

A beltway blowhard, seemingly patterned after Tip O'Neill and Ted Kennedy, and whose name is a pun of "bats in the belfry"


Most politicians stretch the truth often aligning themselves to optimize vote getting while working to get as much campaign cash as they can (outside of public view and with strings attached). Principled politicians are few and far between. The best thing we could do to reduce the “Lie Ability” is campaign finance reform utilizing media sources (internet, TV news, newspapers/magazines) to provide open debates with 100% public financing. To add interest, we could have a World Cup or NCAA Tournament elimination style debate-off which we employ to fairly find the best sports teams but somehow avoid when selecting politicians (offered only partially in jest).
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:23 pm

David ole friend, it is good to see your spurt of activity on these board the last few days but I question your idea that seems to put H. Clinton and B. Obama under the same stripe. Democrats are not all of the same stripe any more than Republicans are. And I have been a registered Republican for 59.5 years of my 80.5 but I have never voted a straight ticket.

And Timothy pleas support your statement that "most of the people who are a part of the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC are ardent Republicans" I really do not know the politics of Most of the takeover cable. And A lotof folk in the south have swiched parties since 79 and before.

Hauro you tagged it with "Tangled webs, all of us"
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby Haruo » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:56 am

Ed Pettibone wrote:And A lot of folk in the south have switched parties since 79 and before.

And from what I read it may be going the other direction a bit in Mississippi...
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby David Flick » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:43 am

KeithE wrote:
David Flick wrote:It's obvious that Senator Belfry is a Liberal Democrat, i.e. the same stripe as Barak Obama & Hillary Clinton... :D

David is continuing his comic book attack approach to arriving at truth this time about a couple of succesful Democratic politicians and by extension “liberal Democrats”.

If you have a point to make David, 1you might want to give a permanent link to your link above and talk to that - 2that is if you want to break your longstanding claim that you ‘refrain from giving political comment’.

    1) The link to the Shoe comic strip of Saturday, June 28, 2014 has gone into the archives and is no longer available for public view without purchasing it. Since it was copyrighted, I didn't have permission to post it as printed. So far as I'm able to discern, there is no permanent link available. If there is one, I couldn't locate it...

    2) Actually, my one sentence statement was more of an observation than commentary. That said, if you (or Sandy) could actually document that Chaney & Bush were worse liars than Obama and the Clintons, you would have some ground to stand on. But the fact of the matter is that you can't. Impossible. For starters, Obama earned the distinction of telling the 2013 Lie of the Year, not once, not twice, not thrice, but 37 times in public speeches. That lie was, of course,
    "If you like your health care plan, you can keep it." And that's just one of the scores of documented lies which Obama has told during his presidency. Hillary Clinton blatently lied many times about the Benghazi fiasco. Heck, a simple google search shows her marvelous "lie ability." And, of course, who could ever forget the famous Bill Clinton lie, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman"...?

The comic strip Shoe has a regular, fictional character Senator Baston D. Belfry.
A beltway blowhard, seemingly patterned after Tip O'Neill and Ted Kennedy, and whose name is a pun of "bats in the belfry"

    Yes, and both Tip O'Neill and Ted Kennedy were Liberal Democrats... My observation confirmed... :D

Most politicians stretch the truth often aligning themselves to optimize vote getting while working to get as much campaign cash as they can (outside of public view and with strings attached). Principled politicians are few and far between. The best thing we could do to reduce the “Lie Ability” is campaign finance reform utilizing media sources (internet, TV news, newspapers/magazines) to provide open debates with 100% public financing. To add interest, we could have a World Cup or NCAA Tournament elimination style debate-off which we employ to fairly find the best sports teams but somehow avoid when selecting politicians (offered only partially in jest).
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby Sandy » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:37 pm

David Flick wrote:That said, if you (or Sandy) could actually document that Chaney & Bush were worse liars than Obama and the Clintons, you would have some ground to stand on.


http://www.opednews.com/articles/Maddow ... 16-72.html
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/why-we-did-it

The lies of Cheney, Bush, and their whole administration were documented, including testimony from those who were lied to, and those who were asked to help perpetrate the lies, and confirmed in the documentaries done on the Iraq War. Even Colin Powell has come forward and admitted that the Bush administration knew there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and that the evidence of collusion between Iraq and Al Qaida was invented by the CIA under Bush's direct orders to manufacture it if they couldn't find it.

To date, there's not a single documented case where an individual was forced to give up the insurance policy that either they or their employer paid for as a result of the regulations of the affordable care act. There are some insurance companies who have been forcing their clients into different policies and claiming it was because of the ACA, but there isn't one documented case where the ACA regulation caused that to happen. Nor have the now 14 investigations on Benghazi that are wasting taxpayer money come up with anything that Hillary Clinton said that was not true. The one independent investigation that actually got true facts confirmed what she said. The others wound up getting baited by paid informants that bilked them of taxpayer money and sent them chasing rabbits.

You have no credibility on making accusations of liars, David. Bush and Cheney have their photos beside the definition of pathological liar in the dictionary. If you won't acknowledge that, then I must conclude that you can't recognize a lie when you see one.
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby David Flick » Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:20 am

Sandy wrote:
David Flick wrote:That said, if you (or Sandy) could actually document that Chaney & Bush were worse liars than Obama and the Clintons, you would have some ground to stand on.


http://www.opednews.com/articles/Maddow ... 16-72.html
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/why-we-did-it

The lies of Cheney, Bush, and their whole administration were documented, including testimony from those who were lied to, and those who were asked to help perpetrate the lies, and confirmed in the documentaries done on the Iraq War. Even Colin Powell has come forward and admitted that the Bush administration knew there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and that the evidence of collusion between Iraq and Al Qaida was invented by the CIA under Bush's direct orders to manufacture it if they couldn't find it.

To date, there's not a single documented case where an individual was forced to give up the insurance policy that either they or their employer paid for as a result of the regulations of the affordable care act. There are some insurance companies who have been forcing their clients into different policies and claiming it was because of the ACA, but there isn't one documented case where the ACA regulation caused that to happen. Nor have the now 14 investigations on Benghazi that are wasting taxpayer money come up with anything that Hillary Clinton said that was not true. The one independent investigation that actually got true facts confirmed what she said. The others wound up getting baited by paid informants that bilked them of taxpayer money and sent them chasing rabbits.

    Somewhere down the line you've fallen hook line and sinker for the Liberal Democrat talking points. You're attempting to defend the indefensible with respect to Hillary Clinton...
1You have no credibility on making accusations of liars, David. 2Bush and Cheney have their photos beside the definition of pathological liar in the dictionary. 3If you won't acknowledge that, then I must conclude that you can't recognize a lie when you see one.

  1. My credibility isn't at stake here.

  2. Oh, really!? In which dictionary might I find Bush and Cheney's photos beside the definition of "pathological liar"?? I checked every dictionary I have, as well as several online dictionaries. I found exactly zero photos of either man next to the definition of "pathological liar". In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a dictionary with photos associated with the term. I think I caught you telling a big fat lie. If anyone's credibility is at stake in this discussion, it's yours... :lol:

  3. Are you suggesting that Obama's declaration that "If you like your health care plan, you can keep it," isn't a lie? Are you suggesting that Hiliary's claim that the Benghazi attack was the direct result of an evil internet video isn't a lie? Are you suggesting that Clinton's claim that he didn't have sex with Monica Lewinsky isn't a lie? If so, I conclude that you're the one who can't recognize a lie when you see one. :roll:

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'm finished with this discussion. I've violated my personal commitment to refrain from discussing secular politics. When I was in high school (nearly 60 years ago) my father advised me to never discuss/argue politics with friends. Said he, it's the quickest way to make bitter enemies out of good friends. I've never forgotten his advice. Henceforth, I'll keep my personal opinions about secular politics to myself...
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby KeithE » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:23 am

There is a difference between direct lies, and plausible predictions.

Obama certainly hoped that the ACA would provide an additional insurance option for those unable to obtain health insurance and that current insurance policies would not be cancelled. (He did not say the current insurance policies would see no increase in costs; they have seen an increase in costs but the insurance is also better - no annual caps, no lifetime caps, no limitations for pre-existing conditions). That prediction proved wrong - some (but not most policies) have been cancelled. Obama was speaking with rose-colored glasses when he said repeatedly “if you like you insurance, you can keep it”. I’d call that a hoped-for prediction not a direct lie.

GWB declared “mission accomplished” far too early. He too was speaking with rose-colored glasses. Not necessarily a lie. But the claim of weapons of mass destruction in the justification for the second Iraq War was a bald face lie. So too was the staged destruction of the Saddam Hussein statue.

Bill Clinton’s lie about “I did not have sexual relations with that woman” was another lie hanging only on a thread of what “sexual relations” meant.

Now I ask:
1) whose lie or wrong prediction had the worse outcome for the people of the world?
2) whose motivation for the lie/rose-colored prediction was worse?

I see Obama’s /Susan Rice/ Hillary Clinton’s claim of the anti-Muslim video being a cause of the Banghazi attacks as a plea to temper down the anti-muslim rhetoric in this country. Obama did immediately call it “terrorism”. It is plausibly true that the film was known and a motivating point in several of the participants in the attack. But the prime motivation behind muslim terrorism towards Americans goes back to American ill-conceived intrusion into their land over many years. And the second guessing about the State Dept’s protection at the embassy is just that second guessing (politically motivated).
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby Sandy » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:31 am

Actually, I believe it was Susan Rice, not Hillary Clinton, who made the statement about the anti-muslim film being behind the violence that was taking place in the Middle East, and prompted the attack in Benghazi. As it turned out, the film did surface as one of several potential motivations in the course of the questioning from several of the futile GOP led congressional investigations, much to their consternation. As to the Obama statement about the ACA, there is still no evidence whatsoever that the provisions of the act are responsible for what insurance companies have done to private policy holders. Based on the provisions and requirements of the legislation, Obama told the truth. It's nothing but politics to say that was a lie, because it is a factually accurate statement. As to Bill Clinton's statement regarding Monica Lewinsky, ultimately it is his word against hers, and her credibility is certainly open to question. Some people are prone to jump to conclusions. This is politics, and since there aren't credible facts proving what actually occurred between the two, it isn't for me to say who is lying.

I did notice that in his self-defense, David didn't touch the proof, and the cataract of facts and testimony that proved beyond any shadow of doubt that Cheney and Bush lied repeatedly, to Congress and to the American people, and actually gave orders to invent evidence that couldn't be found. The cost of their lies, namely a hundred thousand human lives, along with several trillion taxpayer dollars is as heinous a crime as the fact that both of them made themselves billionaires several times over in the profit they reaped from the war.
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby Ed Pettibone » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:32 pm

Ed: Keith I think that due to a personal bias you are being to kind to Obama on this one. I am of the opinion that his motive in repeating a statement that he should have known was unsupportable fit in the Territory of a LIE. In that I believe his motive was to sell his proposal and due to his arrogant thinking that he always knows what is best, he expressed what he preferred as a fact to get his way. Again he is the President of the USA not the king of some serfdom.

And we as a people need to quit giving politicians of all parties, free passes, just because their vocational choice seems to require lying.
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Re: Lie Ability

Postby Hal Eaton » Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:16 pm

Much (most?) of political commentary is limited to the practice trying to get the most "bang for the buck." For instance, the phrase, "Obama acts like a king/dictator/whatever" will sway more voters than any lengthy, well-researched article on the subject of the evaluation of any Democratic or Republican presidency.

The continual reproduction of Obama's "lie" regarding the public's ability to keep their health insurance was obviously aimed at deterring the inference that ACA would not permit them to keep such contracts in force. Obama was simply in the dark as to the orchestrated and masterfully political response of health insurance companies to cancel policies long before the ACA could possibly take any such action, even if it were not part of the requirements of even unintended consequences of the Act. Keith mentioned the same, but did not elaborate . . .

So much for political japery, misinformation, suppressio veri, delusion, equivocation -- always under the guise (disguise?) of political expediency, deportment, and manners.

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Re: Lie Ability

Postby KeithE » Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:58 pm

Ed Pettibone wrote:Ed: Keith I think that due to a personal bias you are being to kind to Obama on this one. I am of the opinion that his motive in repeating a statement that he should have known was unsupportable fit in the Territory of a LIE. In that I believe his motive was to sell his proposal and due to his arrogant thinking that he always knows what is best, he expressed what he preferred as a fact to get his way. Again he is the President of the USA not the king of some serfdom.

And we as a people need to quit giving politicians of all parties, free passes, just because their vocational choice seems to require lying.

If you think I have a "personal bias" for Obama, you are badly mistaken. I know of outright lies he has told in several areas.

My point is that I do believe people (even presidents) are sometimes stating things they hope come true, but fail to materialize. Obama's motive was no doubt trying to sell the ACA, but I believe he did so believing what he said was true. I believe GWB believed that Iraq was "mission accomplished" on that carrier deck. Was I being equally kind to him on this score? Trudy might call the presidential statements under question "equal-opportunity" optimism. :wink:

I could not agree more with your statement in red. Hold them ACCOUNTABLE as I have repeatedly called for herein (the mainstream/cable media sure isn't consistent on this score) by employing more accountability agents, more in-the-streets protestations when called or, and more blogging protestations when called for.

But we should not be so cynical as to quickly give a non-pass to any presidential statement or so cynical to say government (at any level) cannot do anything right.

We simply need to dig into the statements, critically* assess the results, suggest improvements, and make this nation a "more perfect union". Collective action can work!

*I mean "critically" in the sense of definition 2 below:

1. expressing adverse or disapproving comments or judgments.
"he was critical of many U.S. welfare programs"
synonyms: censorious, condemnatory, condemning, denunciatory, disparaging, disapproving, scathing, fault-finding, judgmental, accusatory, negative,

2. expressing or involving an analysis of the merits and faults of a work of literature, music, or art.
"she never won the critical acclaim she sought"
synonyms: evaluative, analytical, interpretative, expository, explanatory
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