US Climate Change Report Out

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[KeithE]

Never said the oil, gas, coal industries were the only ones receiving subsidies. Just that they received more than alternative energy which is more in the developmental/infrastructure building phase.

Your Figure 1 (made in 2012) is a projection until 2016. I do not doubt tax subsidies are thought to be mostly “available to all firms". But in practice it is whoever lobbies (and campaign contributes) the most, gets the most. Precedence also plays a major role. Here is the breakdown by industry of tax subsidies for 2008-2010. I do not suspect it has changed much.


Notes: This does not include direct subsidies or direct sales; just tax breaks. Coal used for electricity generation is included in the “utilities, gas and electric “ category.

The source is the Citizens for Tax Justice in which has a bundle of other disturbing facts about corporate taxes - read them and weep for our country.

As far as removing these Oil/Gas subsidies increasing the cost of gas significantly, that does not compute. Take Exxon Mobil: they had $4.096B in tax breaks over 3 years 2008-2010 (see page 6 of the CTJ Report linked above). That is $1.365B/year. Their profits in those years were (could not find 2009). Their total assets as of Dec 2013 was . They have a lot of gall continually asking for tax breaks and subsidies year after year given their wealth. So if you really want lower gas prices, their continued overpricing is what you should complain about. Informal collusion on pricing abounds. Or be like me - try more gas efficient cars.

The rush of money to the corporate coffers, to the wealthy and to the financial sector is what is stagnating the economy. Piketty says that is the inevitable outcome of a long-standing capitalism (when return on investments is greater than the overall economic growth, capitalism malfunctions). He recommends a wealth tax to remedy. Keynes recommends government spending to create jobs when in a recession. Dodd-Frank could control the financial sector (if it ever gets implemented) to not allow highly leveraged, speculative investing that caused the financial crisis. Together they have the solution, imo. A third of a century of increased deregulation / lower taxation of the rich/corporations (i.e. supply side economics) simply has not worked for the majority of the American people and has fouled our environment/climate.

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But in the end Keith, whatever the tax policy.....it is you and me that pay 'corporate' income taxes, not the entities themselves. Corporations are little more than IRS middlemen who collect taxes on you and me based on the products we purchase. Raise ExxonMobile's taxes...you and I pay it at the pump, the employees pay it in lost wages or a supplier pays it in lost revenue (office supplies, computer sales, drilling equipment yet).

You want to raise taxes on oil and gas companies? Fine. However, don't turn around later and lament the struggles of the middle class or the lower class struggling to pay their utility bills or fuel their cars to get to their job after you've sucked up more of their income in the form of higher energy prices in order for you to chase your dreams of an ever-expanding idea based on the notion that "government is good". It is but a necessary evil.

[KeithE]

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[KeithE]

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[KeithE]

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Keith, my friend, you are the consummate engineer, always stuck in the weeds of decimal points and charts and graphs. You can dissect the decimal points and significant digits to the nth degree. Unfortunately, decimal points and charts don't make a philosophical argument for what allows you to selectively plunder the labors of other people just because you don't like them, their company or how much money they make.

In the years to come, what profit margin Exxon makes will have very little impact on my life. Handing over power to progressive politicians to decide how much they can make is far more problematic and is far more likely to make the lives of Americans more miserable than anything Exxon can do. Latest example....the single-payer VA health care system - the kind of system progressives want to foist on all of us.

I don't trust you or any other politician with the power to manipulate the earnings and profits of companies to your liking, whether they proclaim the name or Christ or not. You have no business possessing such power and won't ever be entrusted with it, if I have anything to say about the matter.

In the end we simply have two different views of the world. One of us seeks justice in the process and lets the chips fall where they may. The other wishes to look at the outcomes and then manipulate the process until the desired result is achieved. One of us defines justice as a process. The other defines justice based on the outcome. My view has its flaws, but none so problematic as the government coercion that is a requirement in yours.

And now...back to our original topic for those interested in continuing it....

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