Housing Allowances and Social Security

[Dave Roberts]

If the exemption of the ministerial housing allowance is overturned, what is the chance that the exemption from taxing churches on ministerial compensation for Social Security will also be overturned. Churches (in many cases) already pay Social Security payroll taxes on their non-ministerial employees. Isn't the classification of ministers as being self-employed (so that the churches are not directly taxed on that compensation) also a favoring of organized religion that is equally likely to be overturned?

[William Thornton]

[Dave Roberts]

It still seems, William, that the provision is one that directly favors churches in granting them an exemption that is passed on to their ministers. Are there any other employers so exempted in the law???

[William Thornton]

[Haruo]

Dave will not be responding, William, as he has given up political posting for Lent, so let me just say on his behalf, you're wrong, just wrong.

[William Thornton]

[Tim Bonney]

The whole tax system related to clergy is a mess. But at the moment I'm not thinking the HA exemption will actually get over turned. If it does I think we should be treated as employees for tax and SSI purposes and the institution should have to pay its half of SSI like everyone else does.

But even that I don't think would save me the tax money because I'm betting a lot of churches would have to cut their salary offerings to make up for what they would then have to pay on the pastor's SSI thereby wiping out any value to the change for the pastor. More congregationalist churches will go bi-vocational and more Methodists preachers will have multi-point charges. I already see circuits growing with a shortage of clergy. This would just speed that up.

Just remember TANSTAAFL.

[KeithE]

[Dave Roberts]

Actually, my post about no more responses was my April fool joke.

[William Thornton]

Keith, you could have gone along with the joke on April Fools Day. Missed your chance.

As I said, you would find considerable support from clergy for bringing churches under the standard SS employer rules. It is in the minister's self-interest which trumps many other considerations.

I think it likely that churches will be increasingly taxed locally. Many are quite large bidnesses with revenue producing activities such as bookstores.

[KeithE]

[Neil Heath]

I know of churches which simply increase their ordained ministers salaries by the amount of additional SS they have to pay, thus removing the extra tax burden.

[Dave Roberts]

[Tim Bonney]

Just further proof that we aren't in it for the money.

[Mrs Haruo]

Along the line of church property being off the tax rolls, I know tax laws vary around the country state by state, and I am just beginning to learn more than I ever wanted to know, getting more involved in local politics and community management. I never thought I would see the day when I would say to myself, "Oh no, not another new church", but the comment is often made by local homeowners. It is often heard in monthly community board meetings by those who are already involved in their own spiritual practices (or lack of interest). People who used to use public transit to get to church on Sundays are no longer able to in most counties in Western Washington because bus companies struggling to balance the budget have stopped Sunday service altogether. Our neighborhood used to have a thriving business core with several grocers within a one mile range and drug stores, gift shops, auto parts, hardware etc. With the coming of "superstores" a few miles down the hill where one can get all their shopping done under one roof- the independent Mom and Pop shops have died out up here on the hill, now we have a number of competing store front churches competing for limited parking space on Sunday and maybe evening services one or two nights a week, the rest of the time shuttered tight. As often as not, these churches feature highly amplified music and spoken word right when a lot of neighbors want to enjoy their day of rest RESTING, not having conversation in their own back yards drowned out by people who may not even live in the neighborhood, just were looking for a cheap space to rent. Definitely a community relations problem

[Haruo]

But its just a matter of cogic, dear.