The Role of Government

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Re: The Role of Government

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed May 14, 2014 7:18 am

ET, I'm rather swamped at the moment, but I will get back to this in a few days.
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Re: The Role of Government

Postby Sandy » Wed May 14, 2014 8:08 am

ET wrote:I'm sorry, Dave, but I find this notion of "privilege" - "white privilege", that is, for you and I both know that is what is meant whether the folks using the term include the color adjective or not - to be a disservice to every other human being in this country. It demeans the success of those who have worked hard to get where they are - white, black, green or purple. It implies that the failure of others to do better is based significantly on barriers someone else has put in their way, as if that hasn't happened to others in a wide range of racial and ethnic groups throughout all of human history.


Of course you do. You're white, and male, and whether you want to admit it or not, unless you make a significant effort to dig into the facts and develop a sense of empathy based on reality, you will not have an understanding of that notion, because you have never been, and never will be in a position to experience what happens to those who are neither white nor male in America. A friend of mine who is Chinese American, and pastors a rather large, predominantly Chinese congregation in the wealthy southwest suburbs of Houston characterized his perception of "white privilege" as a glass ceiling. Even among this particularly prosperous and apparently successful and energetic ethnic community, which is pretty open minded when it comes to the way they view the culture and society at large, most people had a background that included the experience of discrimination based on their racial background. And they had also experienced the dismissive attitude that whenever they pushed for what they saw as equal opportunity, they were accused of "playing the race card."
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Re: The Role of Government

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed May 14, 2014 9:45 am

I use the term "white privilege" to define the world in which I grew up. Everything my community could afford was poured into the "white schools" prior to integration. Something was under construction at the schools I attended almost the entire time I was in school. However, if you were Black, prior to integration, you attended an elementary school that was very inadequate and had playgrounds and facilities that would have been acceptable to no white parents. When Black students finished the 7th grade, if they wanted to go further in school, they had to board a bus by 7 a.m. and ride 40 miles to attend high school. They would not get home before 5 or 5:30 in the afternoon. Most never got beyond the 8th grade due to the structural racism.

My parents could apply for any job in town for which they were qualified, but the understanding was that blacks were suited to be maids and janitors. Not one was on the production lines in a furniture or textile mill. My dad moved into law enforcement when he was 40. Up until after his retirement in 1972, not one application for the police department was even considered if it came from an African-American.

I live in a community now that still expresses white privilege in certain arenas. Despite having an African-American majority, there still seem to be management jobs that are reserved for whites--banks, social services institutions, and other upper management. The local volunteer fire department is still all white. And there are other areas that struggle with institutional racism.
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Re: The Role of Government

Postby Sandy » Wed May 14, 2014 11:17 am

My pastor friend was constantly asked why they "segregated" themselves into a separate church, instead of worshipping in the churches in the community. His reply was that they didn't segregate themselves. He and two staff members from the church he served prior started the church as a plant. It was identified as a community church, not a "Chinese" church, and it was in an area where the demographics of the population was predominantly white. His response was that white people would not invest themselves in a church with ethnic Chinese leadership, nor could he find staff members who were white who were willing to stay with the church and invest themselves in its ministry. So they've become a church where ethnic Chinese, most of whom are second and third generation Americans, gather because they aren't given opportunity to serve using their gifts in predominantly white churches.
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Re: The Role of Government

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri May 16, 2014 7:51 am

ET, I want to respond to another part of your posts--educational opportunity. I may agree with you on many points. First, I heartily agree that not every career requires a college education. There are many technical and service careers that do not. Some of the greatest needs in our area are for long-distance truck drivers and for qualified industrial electricians. One of my best friends is a retired industrial electrician specializing in control systems for the surface mining industry. He was brought from West Virginia because his company could not find local people who had the math and technical skills to do the job. The technical skills needed now require excellent math skills and electronic skills that are not being taught. Unfortunately, many of those who enroll in technical programs in electricity, electronics, and computer networking have to spend a year just getting remedial math and science skills they did not get in high school.

Second, there are numerous grant and loan programs out there, some of them are federal and others are state and local grants. Pell Grants allow the poorest students to attend higher education institutions with taxpayer funding for much of their education. The requirements, however, are stiff, and some of the students involved lose their grants because they do not pass course work quickly enough to continue. Others do receive a large portion of their educational expenses at very little cost. Almost all schools participate in the Pell Grants.

Third, the Stafford Loans are probably the most troubling area. Schools admit students and offer them combinations of scholarships and loans to bring the immediate costs of education down where they are affordable. When our son was in the application process a few years ago, he had some of these offers that included loans. The way that colleges promote these makes it appear that your education should not cost a great deal, but they do leave debilitating debt on the far end. One of the reasons medical care is as costly as it is comes from the amount of debt the average new doctor has. Many of them come out of school owing as much as $200,000 for their educations. Medical costs then must allow them to meet their payment schedules. One of my personal beefs is that if large corporations can borrow money today for as little as 0.75%, shouldn't we do the same for our students.

I'm glad you had the option to be able to spread your education across a wider span and have employer help in getting it. It is a rare employer in today's market that will provide help for their employees to get their education. (How many WalMart and McDonald's employees get any assistance?)

Many of the traditional jobs that allowed my generation to earn money for education have dried up. I was a radio DJ while in college. Radio is now automated. As a seminary student, I did building maintenance. Now that is contracted to outside services rather than employing students. I also was an RA in a residence hall in college making a little money that way. However, I have to credit my parents at helping me to get my start. They began saving for my education shortly after I was born. We did the same for our son. Many families do not have that opportunity. In my area. 20% of all familes are described as "food insecure." They will not be saving for their children's educations.
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Re: The Role of Government

Postby Haruo » Sat May 17, 2014 10:40 am

My employer and my union both provide educational tuition assistance. So does Dick's, the closest hamburger joint to where I work. http://www.ddir.com/employment
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Re: The Role of Government

Postby Sandy » Sun May 18, 2014 9:17 am

Dave Roberts wrote:I'm glad you had the option to be able to spread your education across a wider span and have employer help in getting it. It is a rare employer in today's market that will provide help for their employees to get their education. (How many WalMart and McDonald's employees get any assistance?)


How many Exxon or Wells Fargo Bank employees get any assistance? And yet, their profits are soaring. Of course, most businesses think they are paying for their employee's education with salaries, but that's not a free market determination any more. Without pressure, big business will not compensate their employees at competitive rates.
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Re: The Role of Government

Postby William Thornton » Sun May 18, 2014 11:50 am

They already compensate at competitive rates, otherwise they would have no employees. What you mean instead of "competitive" rates is "government approved, artificial" rates.
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Re: The Role of Government

Postby Sandy » Sun May 18, 2014 2:50 pm

William Thornton wrote:They already compensate at competitive rates, otherwise they would have no employees. What you mean instead of "competitive" rates is "government approved, artificial" rates.


You can google just about any economic study site, private or government, and discover that most Americans are underpaid, according to the real value of their skills, training and experience. Companies who compete for workers have suppressed pay and benefits by collusion in keeping wages artificially low. "Right to work" laws in many states also provide a means to cut corners on the value of labor and competitive salaries. To think that business in American pays "competitive" wages is a laughable and naïve.
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Re: The Role of Government

Postby William Thornton » Sun May 18, 2014 4:01 pm

Sandy wrote:
William Thornton wrote:They already compensate at competitive rates, otherwise they would have no employees. What you mean instead of "competitive" rates is "government approved, artificial" rates.


You can google just about any economic study site, private or government, and discover that most Americans are underpaid, according to the real value of their skills, training and experience. Companies who compete for workers have suppressed pay and benefits by collusion in keeping wages artificially low. "Right to work" laws in many states also provide a means to cut corners on the value of labor and competitive salaries. To think that business in American pays "competitive" wages is a laughable and naïve.


This is why I sometimes think it unprofitable to have these discussions. "Competitive" carries the meaning here that employers fill positions from a pool of applicants. If the pool is such that many employers compete for the skills of applicants, then wage levels, benefits, and perks like education funding may have to be offered. Collusion is both illegal and unworkable. If there are few workers with needed skills employers will quickly adjust what is offered to be at a competitive advantage.

But I understand that if you have a college degree in history and art and little experience and actual marketable skills, then you would love for employers to be forced by gummit to pay at a scale that is truly artificially set. The "real" value of a worker's skill, training and experience is determined by the market. If there are thousands of brain surgeons competing for a handful of brain surgeon positions pay will be lower that assumed "value."

Right to work laws allow employees not to be forced to pay union fees. Sounds like freedom to me.

I do understand, however, that my mod lib friends would love for gummit to guarantee wages according to what some bureaucrat decides is "fair" and is what adequately reflects arbitrarily derived "value" of certain skills, experience, and education.

I'd advise those who wish to work, most but far from all in our society, to be busy acquiring skills and knowledge that put the at a competitive advantage and thereby demand greater wages. Or, flip burgers and hope Obama swings a few more cents in minimum wage laws.
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Re: The Role of Government

Postby Dave Roberts » Sun May 18, 2014 7:13 pm

William, I love your hyperbolic statements always making other positions sound outrageous. Sounds like you learned from the best in the SBC.

Right to work is only one of many approaches followed to suppress wages. The first was NAFTA when the government policy was changed to allow those owning companies to take them profitably off-shore. The second has been the government fiat not to raise minimum wages to keep pace with inflation. I don't remember who, but there was a very commonsense proposal from a Republican senator to stop the charade of Congressional speeches about the loss of jobs and the disaster minimum wage increases pose for business and simply pick a year in the 1960's as the index year and adjust minimum wages by the rate of inflation each year. Businesses fought that with big money, and it was not enacted. I guess it made too much sense that big business couldn't risk letting it get out of the hands of the best politicians money can buy.
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Re: The Role of Government

Postby William Thornton » Sun May 18, 2014 7:59 pm

I merely used Sandys nonsense statement about bidnesses needing gummit to force "competitive" wages. If wages are not competitive' then bidnesses will have no employees. Gummit, OTOH, will have plenty. If one wishes to use the language of the market, e.g. "competitive", then at least show an understanding of the concepts involved.

Barriers to paying competitive wages also include licensure and other often artificial devices to limit the pool of workers.

There are plenty of aspects to the relationship of labor and capital, employers and their employees.
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Re: The Role of Government

Postby Sandy » Sun May 18, 2014 9:05 pm

William Thornton wrote:Collusion is both illegal and unworkable.


Wow. You really are naïve. You need to take an interim pastorate in Houston, with a congregation that has a lot of people who work in either energy, or energy finance.

William Thornton wrote: If wages are not competitive' then bidnesses will have no employees.


American business has found a myiad of ways to remove the last vestiges of the competitive nature of wages from the equation, from contracting jobs out to firms who pay minimum wages and no benefits to get higher level work done, to exporting jobs out of the country to exploit cheap labor. Ever talk to a customer service representative about your credit card? Or even your bank account? Ever hear of a "no compete clause" in a contract? Wages in American business are not competitive.

    Yes, they will have employees, and if they can get them in India, or Nigeria, or Indonesia then they will forgo the education and skill provided by Americans, because they have to compete and pay for that.

    One of the alumni of my school who graduated in 2009 just got promoted to a vice president position in a large local bank corporation. He's a tech guy, got the job competing with more experienced, highly trained employees because he's low on the seniority totem pole and they can pay him half the wages of a senior employee for the same work
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    Re: The Role of Government

    Postby William Thornton » Sun May 18, 2014 9:36 pm

    My unionist friend just doesn't understand the meaning of "competitive."
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    Re: The Role of Government

    Postby Sandy » Mon May 19, 2014 10:19 pm

    William Thornton wrote:My unionist friend just doesn't understand the meaning of "competitive."


    Competitive wages are what business paid in America when Unions forced the issue. Without a union, or government, business doesn't pay a competitive wage. It pays the lowest possible wage it can get away with, by manipulating the labor market, exporting as many jobs as possible, and forming monopolies. You need to remove the blinders.
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    Re: The Role of Government

    Postby William Thornton » Tue May 20, 2014 5:54 am

    Sandy wrote:
    William Thornton wrote:My unionist friend just doesn't understand the meaning of "competitive."


    Competitive wages are what business paid in America when Unions forced the issue. Without a union, or government, business doesn't pay a competitive wage. It pays the lowest possible wage it can get away with, by manipulating the labor market, exporting as many jobs as possible, and forming monopolies. You need to remove the blinders.


    You make my point.
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    Re: The Role of Government

    Postby Sandy » Tue May 20, 2014 6:22 am

    William Thornton wrote:
    Sandy wrote:
    William Thornton wrote:My unionist friend just doesn't understand the meaning of "competitive."


    Competitive wages are what business paid in America when Unions forced the issue. Without a union, or government, business doesn't pay a competitive wage. It pays the lowest possible wage it can get away with, by manipulating the labor market, exporting as many jobs as possible, and forming monopolies. You need to remove the blinders.


    You make my point.


    No, not even close. The lowest possible wage is not "competitive." A truly competitive wage occurs when business "competes" with other business for employees by paying the highest possible wage for available labor. That cannot happen when a monopoly or a business trust colludes to set a low wage, or undermines the free market by manipulation, using its resources to artificially suppress wages. That's not competition, at least, it's not free market competition. That's corporate communism.
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    Re: The Role of Government

    Postby KeithE » Tue May 20, 2014 8:57 am

    William,

    Among the real today’s world facts you do not understand are:

    1) Industry leaders could care less about paying a living wage to their employees since their product gets valued mostly through advertising and low cost, not through the quality that results from a stable workforce. As such the only competition among the wage setters is competition to lower salaries/hour rate of the expendable (thus move the production overseas for cheaper wages) and in producing the best advertisement (which happens to be very costly).

    2) Industry leaders are competing for salary (their status) as it becomes more and more acceptable to give themselves a larger share of the salary pool. If necessary, they buy out compliant Board of Directors to rubber stamp their proposed salaries/perks.

    3) With the demonization of unions, collective bargaining is virtually over. Carter/Reagan sealed that with the Air Traffic Controllers. Reagan’s Sleight of Hand. The media no longer covers labor strikes sympathetically - why should they, that would mean less money for advertising.

    4) Today corporate capital reserves (greater than ever) is more often invested than used to build new and/or better products to society’s betterment. The culture has changed. Easier and less risky money can be made that way.

    5) With increased money in fewer hands, truly representative democracy is a thing of the past. Money buys policies via lobbying and campaign contributions.

    As such the only wage pressure has been one of expanding inequality. The CEOs get more, the workers get less, the financial magnates get more money to play with, and the media gets more advertising revenue.

    Government action to break this cycle up is cornered by behind the scenes lobbying and political posturing - witness the GOP blocking of min wage increases and the slow implementation of Dodd-Frank. Government itself has been demonized by the right wing media.

    All of this is detailed in Capital in the Twenty-First Century.

    [Piketty’s] thesis is simple. The growing concentration of capital in fewer hands has enabled its owners to keep it relatively scarce and thus valuable…Continuing high inequality is socially and economically destabilizing, though it need not lead to Marx’s apocalypse. So what we need is another bout of social democracy especially in the form of progressive taxation. You many think that it doesn’t require 600 pages to get this message across. This would be wrong. The strength of Piketty’s book is his close attention to the different sources of inequality, the massive documentation underpinning his history and conclusions, and his impressive culls from sociology and literature, which exhibit the richness of ‘political economy’ compared to its thin mathematical successor that has attained such prominence…Piketty’s book is a timely intervention in the current debate about inequality and its causes.


    William, at least read the reviews of the book. Inform yourself of the changes. Unfettered capitalism has run its course into a new Gilded Age.
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    Re: The Role of Government

    Postby Dave Roberts » Tue May 20, 2014 9:33 am

    I keep seeing the "free market" used as though it is a state of nature. It is absolutely not. It is the creation of human laws and structures. Those who want to present it as "God-given" obviously have not read much economic history.
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    Re: The Role of Government

    Postby William Thornton » Tue May 20, 2014 10:01 am

    Sandy wrote:No, not even close. The lowest possible wage is not "competitive." A truly competitive wage occurs when business "competes" with other business for employees by paying the highest possible wage for available labor. That cannot happen when a monopoly or a business trust colludes to set a low wage, or undermines the free market by manipulation, using its resources to artificially suppress wages. That's not competition, at least, it's not free market competition. That's corporate communism.


    A wage earner in the US often competes with overseas or other non-US labor costs. That is competitive. The lowest possible wage is possible for what reason? Competition? Gummit fiat? You wish to equate a "competitive" wage with your standard for a wage rate that is fair or adequate according to your subjective standards. I have no problem with that. Just don't call it "competitive." Find another term. You have no idea what you are talking about. The continual redefinition of words to your liking and use of vocabulary improperly or tendentiously is pretty much a standard in these discussions. When you say "artifically supress wages" you make a political statement. You introduce monopoly in this discussion which hasn't included any monopoly businesses. "Corporate communism" is a cute alliterative phrase, completely meaningless, of course.

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    Re: The Role of Government

    Postby William Thornton » Tue May 20, 2014 10:04 am

    Nice rant, Keith, but I only objected to Sandy's screwball use of the word "competitive". I understand that you don't like CEO pay and a lot of other stuff.
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    Sandy is making more sense than Thornton

    Postby Stephen Fox » Tue May 20, 2014 10:43 am

    Somebody needs to referee these two fundamentalists.

    Between Freedom and Fear, God is not neutral Bush 43 quoted somebody as saying.

    I will be God in this conversation and say two things.

    William Thornton of Statham, Georgia has not read Norm Ornstein's It's worse than it looks; Norm from the CONSERVATIVE AEI.

    And two Thornton has not read Joe Crespino's Strom Thurmond's America.

    I have come to believe NAFTA was a trick on the American Textile Manufacturers Institute as Roger Milliken said it was. That and a hose of other factors evident, the sophomoric economic theory Thornton got taught in Clarke County Georgia in the 60's no longer holds and has not for some time.
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    Re: Sandy is making more sense than Thornton

    Postby William Thornton » Tue May 20, 2014 10:45 am

    Stephen Fox wrote:I have come to believe NAFTA was a trick on the American Textile Manufacturers Institute as Roger Milliken said it was. That and a hose of other factors evident, the sophomoric economic theory Thornton got taught in Clarke County Georgia in the 60's no longer holds and has not for some time.


    This lecture from my friend who has difficulty stringing together a single coherent thought. :roll:
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    Re: The Role of Government

    Postby William Thornton » Tue May 20, 2014 11:29 am

    Would a minimum wage of $15/hr be "competitive"?
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    Re: The Role of Government

    Postby Sandy » Tue May 20, 2014 1:17 pm

    William Thornton wrote:Would a minimum wage of $15/hr be "competitive"?


    I'm not sure. It might be. Some companies distinguish between the unskilled, part time, 'teenage' labor that drives wages down to minimum in places like fast food and retail, and adults who are more or less in the job as a "career." There's a grocery store chain in this area that does it. They pay workers who are out of school and over 21 more than they pay their teenage part-timers for the same work. They increase the wage every six months with seniority. If you are over 21, out of school, and full time, they provide health insurance benefits as well. The quality of their product and the service they provide is top notch, making Wal Mart look like a discount dump, and on most items, they have lower prices. Our next door neighbor is a cashier shift manager for them at $18.50.
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