The Role of Government

[Dave Roberts]

ET, I'm rather swamped at the moment, but I will get back to this in a few days.

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

I use the term "white privilege" to define the world in which I grew up. Everything my community could afford was poured into the "white schools" prior to integration. Something was under construction at the schools I attended almost the entire time I was in school. However, if you were Black, prior to integration, you attended an elementary school that was very inadequate and had playgrounds and facilities that would have been acceptable to no white parents. When Black students finished the 7th grade, if they wanted to go further in school, they had to board a bus by 7 a.m. and ride 40 miles to attend high school. They would not get home before 5 or 5:30 in the afternoon. Most never got beyond the 8th grade due to the structural racism.

My parents could apply for any job in town for which they were qualified, but the understanding was that blacks were suited to be maids and janitors. Not one was on the production lines in a furniture or textile mill. My dad moved into law enforcement when he was 40. Up until after his retirement in 1972, not one application for the police department was even considered if it came from an African-American.

I live in a community now that still expresses white privilege in certain arenas. Despite having an African-American majority, there still seem to be management jobs that are reserved for whites--banks, social services institutions, and other upper management. The local volunteer fire department is still all white. And there are other areas that struggle with institutional racism.

[Sandy]

My pastor friend was constantly asked why they "segregated" themselves into a separate church, instead of worshipping in the churches in the community. His reply was that they didn't segregate themselves. He and two staff members from the church he served prior started the church as a plant. It was identified as a community church, not a "Chinese" church, and it was in an area where the demographics of the population was predominantly white. His response was that white people would not invest themselves in a church with ethnic Chinese leadership, nor could he find staff members who were white who were willing to stay with the church and invest themselves in its ministry. So they've become a church where ethnic Chinese, most of whom are second and third generation Americans, gather because they aren't given opportunity to serve using their gifts in predominantly white churches.

[Dave Roberts]

ET, I want to respond to another part of your posts--educational opportunity. I may agree with you on many points. First, I heartily agree that not every career requires a college education. There are many technical and service careers that do not. Some of the greatest needs in our area are for long-distance truck drivers and for qualified industrial electricians. One of my best friends is a retired industrial electrician specializing in control systems for the surface mining industry. He was brought from West Virginia because his company could not find local people who had the math and technical skills to do the job. The technical skills needed now require excellent math skills and electronic skills that are not being taught. Unfortunately, many of those who enroll in technical programs in electricity, electronics, and computer networking have to spend a year just getting remedial math and science skills they did not get in high school.

Second, there are numerous grant and loan programs out there, some of them are federal and others are state and local grants. Pell Grants allow the poorest students to attend higher education institutions with taxpayer funding for much of their education. The requirements, however, are stiff, and some of the students involved lose their grants because they do not pass course work quickly enough to continue. Others do receive a large portion of their educational expenses at very little cost. Almost all schools participate in the Pell Grants.

Third, the Stafford Loans are probably the most troubling area. Schools admit students and offer them combinations of scholarships and loans to bring the immediate costs of education down where they are affordable. When our son was in the application process a few years ago, he had some of these offers that included loans. The way that colleges promote these makes it appear that your education should not cost a great deal, but they do leave debilitating debt on the far end. One of the reasons medical care is as costly as it is comes from the amount of debt the average new doctor has. Many of them come out of school owing as much as $200,000 for their educations. Medical costs then must allow them to meet their payment schedules. One of my personal beefs is that if large corporations can borrow money today for as little as 0.75%, shouldn't we do the same for our students.

I'm glad you had the option to be able to spread your education across a wider span and have employer help in getting it. It is a rare employer in today's market that will provide help for their employees to get their education. (How many WalMart and McDonald's employees get any assistance?)

Many of the traditional jobs that allowed my generation to earn money for education have dried up. I was a radio DJ while in college. Radio is now automated. As a seminary student, I did building maintenance. Now that is contracted to outside services rather than employing students. I also was an RA in a residence hall in college making a little money that way. However, I have to credit my parents at helping me to get my start. They began saving for my education shortly after I was born. We did the same for our son. Many families do not have that opportunity. In my area. 20% of all familes are described as "food insecure." They will not be saving for their children's educations.

[Haruo]

My employer and my union both provide educational tuition assistance. So does Dick's, the closest hamburger joint to where I work.

[Sandy]

[William Thornton]

They already compensate at competitive rates, otherwise they would have no employees. What you mean instead of "competitive" rates is "government approved, artificial" rates.

[Sandy]

[William Thornton]

[Dave Roberts]

William, I love your hyperbolic statements always making other positions sound outrageous. Sounds like you learned from the best in the SBC.

Right to work is only one of many approaches followed to suppress wages. The first was NAFTA when the government policy was changed to allow those owning companies to take them profitably off-shore. The second has been the government fiat not to raise minimum wages to keep pace with inflation. I don't remember who, but there was a very commonsense proposal from a Republican senator to stop the charade of Congressional speeches about the loss of jobs and the disaster minimum wage increases pose for business and simply pick a year in the 1960's as the index year and adjust minimum wages by the rate of inflation each year. Businesses fought that with big money, and it was not enacted. I guess it made too much sense that big business couldn't risk letting it get out of the hands of the best politicians money can buy.

[William Thornton]

I merely used Sandys nonsense statement about bidnesses needing gummit to force "competitive" wages. If wages are not competitive' then bidnesses will have no employees. Gummit, OTOH, will have plenty. If one wishes to use the language of the market, e.g. "competitive", then at least show an understanding of the concepts involved.

Barriers to paying competitive wages also include licensure and other often artificial devices to limit the pool of workers.

There are plenty of aspects to the relationship of labor and capital, employers and their employees.

[Sandy]

[William Thornton]

My unionist friend just doesn't understand the meaning of "competitive."

[Sandy]

[William Thornton]

[Sandy]

[KeithE]

[Dave Roberts]

I keep seeing the "free market" used as though it is a state of nature. It is absolutely not. It is the creation of human laws and structures. Those who want to present it as "God-given" obviously have not read much economic history.

[William Thornton]

[William Thornton]

Nice rant, Keith, but I only objected to Sandy's screwball use of the word "competitive". I understand that you don't like CEO pay and a lot of other stuff.

[Stephen Fox]

Somebody needs to referee these two fundamentalists.

Between Freedom and Fear, God is not neutral Bush 43 quoted somebody as saying.

I will be God in this conversation and say two things.

William Thornton of Statham, Georgia has not read Norm Ornstein's It's worse than it looks; Norm from the CONSERVATIVE AEI.

And two Thornton has not read Joe Crespino's Strom Thurmond's America.

I have come to believe NAFTA was a trick on the American Textile Manufacturers Institute as Roger Milliken said it was. That and a hose of other factors evident, the sophomoric economic theory Thornton got taught in Clarke County Georgia in the 60's no longer holds and has not for some time.

[William Thornton]

[William Thornton]

Would a minimum wage of $15/hr be "competitive"?

[Sandy]