Min Wage Hikes

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Re: Min Wage Hikes

Postby Sandy » Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:04 pm

ET wrote:I'll repeat: The problem with your argument is that it presumes to negate one of the basic laws of economics - that the higher the price, the lower the demand of a product. These studies go to great lengths to argue that labor is somehow immune to that law. I'm not buying it. Labor is not immune to the law of supply and demand.


You're right. It's not. That's assuming, of course, that business is following the law of supply and demand, and the greater principles of a capitalist economy in its operation, which is not the case. Human factors, i.e. varying levels of greed, the ability to wedge an advantage to the favor of business using the power and influence of its money, the influence of trusts and monopolies all skew the law of supply and demand, and as a result, both wages and prices require some outside power or influence to level the playing field. The contrast between an unregulated economy, and one that has experienced the effects of organized labor and government regulation in America alone, over the course of time, is a prime and clear illustration of the failure of an unregulated capitalist economy. There will always be someone who is willing to use their resources, take a gamble, and cheat the system to gain an advantage. A big picture study of world economics shows that the highest standards of living, with shared prosperity and economic growth and development, exist in countries where the government is an active participant in the economy, as both a regulator and a consumer, and where individual freedom allows workers to organize to level the playing field of labor supply and demand. Where that doesn't occur, there is massive exploitation and poverty.
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Re: Min wage stats

Postby KeithE » Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:47 pm

ET wrote:
Sandy wrote:Your figures, as usual, are not correct.

I direct your attention to "Table 7. Employed wage and salary workers paid hourly rates with earnings at or below the prevailing federal minimum wage by age and sex, 2012 annual averages" from the Dept of Labor report I previously referenced. Note that the percent of hourly workers at or below min wage is 50.4% for the age group of 16-24.

Keith might want to take note that it is the Dept of Labor that specifies the 16-24 age range, not the Heritage Foundation.

I'll repeat: The problem with your argument is that it presumes to negate one of the basic laws of economics - that the higher the price, the lower the demand of a product. These studies go to great lengths to argue that labor is somehow immune to that law. I'm not buying it. Labor is not immune to the law of supply and demand.

You request that I "have a heart"....what of those workers that can't get a job because of the $15/hr min wage? What have you done for them by pricing them out of the labor market?

The most comprehensive studies of studies of actual min wage raises since 1990 (linked three times now) say there has seldom been loss in the low wage labor market. "Basic laws" need validation. I have not seen that you read it or interacted in anyway with that CEPR study.

Lower demand with price only comes when that demand is optional or at least there is elasticity in that direction. Laborers are not optional unless middle management/executives want to get their hands dirty and receive equal pay for equal duties.

And ET, you might want to take note that 21-24 year olds are adults not “suburban teenagers” buying toys.

ET wrote:The majority of teenage min wage workers are suburban middle class per U.S. Labor Dept stats.

ET wrote:Not directed at you Haruo...just a general statement - an industrious teenager or other worker could offer to work for $10 or $12/hr for cash after this takes effect and make a nice bit of money for the next Xbox or iPhone. :)


Such statements are attempts to dismiss needy adults many of which are not receiving a “livable wage”. I shouldn’t question your benevolence. Maybe you would make it up to them with food/clothing/shelter stamps??

Btw, what’s wrong with buying Xboxes or iPhones? That helps the economy; cell phones are often a necessity these days. Although I get your point about the social value of Xboxes. Maybe you’d be in favor of government restriction of video games??
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Re: Min Wage Hikes

Postby KeithE » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:58 am

This is only comparing recent min wage hikes (13 states that have done so in 2014 vs. 37 that haven’t), but the actual results (not theory) back up the claim that States with Higher Minimum Wage Boast Faster Job Growth.

According to an Associated Press analysis of the Labor Department's latest hiring statistics, in the 13 states that raised their minimum wage at the beginning of 2014, the number of jobs grew an average of 0.85 percent from January through June—compared with just 0.61 percent in the remaining states.


Longer term effects may change that, but so far min wage earners (as a whole - I’m sure there are counter-anecdotes) have seen increased paychecks without job loss.

In any multi-faceted societal study with several factors involved (please read the 10 “adjustments” in this CEPR Study to get an idea of how many factors can be involved in the Min Wage issue), the best conclusion comes from the cumulative results.

Previous results showed little employment effect when increasing the min wage over the long term. The first link above shows a more positive job effect for those states that increased min wage than those that didn’t considering only recent (2014) results.
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