Which Country is the ...

[KeithE]

[William Thornton]

The Great Satan, huh?

[Haruo]

[William Thornton]

Sorry, better for me to be out of this discussion. Your calling the US a 'rogue nation' is a disgrace.

[Ed Pettibone]

I have an idea that Haruo and William may have different understanding of the term "Rouge Nation".

[William Thornton]

My previous response erred in that I mistakenly thought Keith to be the writer of the 'rogue nation' comment, rather than Haruo. Haruo usually has some deeper thoughts in mind so I will merely ask how one can lump the US in with N Korea and Iran?

[TrudyU]

[KeithE]

[William Thornton]

[KeithE]

[Haruo]

[Mrs Haruo]

On a personal note: In 1975, I made a stopover in Subic Bay, Philippines. I had heard about the river you could smell a mile away that flowed past the gates of the US Navy base. Conditions were about the worst I had ever seen in Ologopo City outside the main gates. Worse than Tijuana Mex. when the hillsides were crowded with cardboard shacks. That river was an open sewer. Children were swimming in that river to catch coins tossed by American soldiers, sailors and marines, who were laughing uproariously at the "Little Gooks" in the river. I had never felt ashamed to be an American before, but that day I was. Yes, to many people around the world, we are a big, mean bully. Sure, I stand up and salute when the flag goes by in a parade, and I would rather live here than anywhere else I have been, but the torch held up by the Statue of Liberty is looking pretty tarnished to me.

[Haruo]

[William Thornton]

I'm reporting you to the NSA, Haruo. No wait, they already have all of your stuff.

And Ed better be careful or the blue hairs will be after him on account of the rouge stuff.

[Sandy]

Let's put this in perspective. The poll that Keith cited is not confirmation that the United States is the greatest threat to world peace, but that there is a perception around the world that the US is the greatest threat to world peace. That's not a manufactured perception. Our military position, and the capability that is provided to it by the industrial complex that is capable of supporting it, along with our nuclear arsenal, puts our finger on the biggest trigger in the world, and that has a tendency to create the impression that we, as a nation, have fewer restraints on our will to use it. Our repeated role as the "world policeman" is not necessarily accepted around the world in the way that we perceive it. I think the biggest damage ever done to our image and to the perception of the US was the Iraq war. The US attacked, invaded and occupied a sovereign nation without provocation or reason, because the President at the time didn't like its leader, and directed the fear, anger and grief from 9-11 into public opinion to justify the attack. Those actions speak louder than words.

I wouldn't put us in the category of "Rogue" nation along the lines of North Korea, or Iran, but when the US diplomats start talking about "protecting US interests" there are a lot of people who think those are code words to stick our nose into a place where it doesn't belong.

[Dave Roberts]

One of the struggles we all have is to be loyal citizens of our country while accepting that we do not have a perfect country. We do not have a perfect country, and I have to agree with Sandy that our military adventure in Iraq did a lot to damage our credibility in the eye of world opinion. We did not enter with the stated motives that we touted to the world. More of them were in the realm of the promise of cheap gas if we ousted Saddam. It didn't work, and it hurt us. The continuing collapse of Iraq in the time since then hasn't helped our reputation in the world. Iraq has tainted our reputation as the one's who could restore order. Had we left a major contingent of troops there, they would have only been the target of many other insurgent groups. It was not a great chapter in our history. I would not want to live anywhere else, but I am aware that my country, along with every other country in the world, has flaws.

[Mrs Haruo]

Haruo and I have recently become good friends with a young couple from Chile. The husband works for a major corporation doing business around the world, and they were transferred here a year ago. They are well educated and well traveled. I asked them recently what the perception of the US is in their country- do they feel the US is a "Big Bully" putting it's nose where it doesn't belong? They both immediately said YES!

[Tim Bonney]

I also have to agree with Sandy that our misadventure in Iraq has to be at least part of the reason for the opinions about the US. It wasn't Iraqis who attacked us at 911. But we went after Iraq anyway. It never made sense and it will be a long time before the rest of the world forgets we did that. It is by far the worst part of the GW Bush legacy.

[ET]

[ET]

[Sandy]

It's fair to point out that the list ET posted, under "The World Doesn't Hate America, The Left Does" is from a hopelessly biased, extremist right wing source, and lacks any credibility. It's another lip flapping waste of words.

The quote from Prager is factually inaccurate, but then, most raving, foaming at the mouth right wing extremists have to either ignore or manipulate facts and history to make their points. The assertions about Western Europeans and socialism lacks a citation of support, because there is no such thing. The other assertions, also without supporting facts, are nothing more than statements of resentful bigotry. Not worth discussing.

[Haruo]

Still, Sandy, "foaming at the mouth" might be just a tad unsubstantiated.

[KeithE]

[Haruo]

Jane Adibhatla posted an interesting thing on this subject some years back (too long ago to be in the database I think) and I ran across a printout of it recently, set it aside to repost, and now can't find it. Oh well.

[Tim Bonney]

The truth of the matter is that what we have in the US is a "center right" party known as the "Democrats" and a "far far right party" known as the "Republicans." Both parties have moved to the right in recent years. One of the reasons it is so laughable when someone calls the President a socialist is that he isn't even a liberal, much less a socialist.