Distributism

[Ed Pettibone]

[Matto]

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

[Matto]

You reject the evidence of Irenaeus and Cyprian then you say there is no evidence Timothy.

These Church Fathers were pre Constantine in the time of pagan Roman persecution, and and they looked at the Apostolic See as having primacy over all the Church.

The Chair of Peter is Gods guarantee of Teaching Authority and Truth, to the whole Church.

In protestantism people have no guarantee of the Infallible Truth, it's doctrines are divided an conflicted on the differing opinions of men.
Each denomination and non- denomination has a human founder and interpreter, and they are divided as a result.
The division is just a manifestation of the crisis of authority.

Just as the Church Fathers looked to the Chair of Peter on matters of doctrine, so a Catholic does today. Nothing has changed and it is entirely consistent.

"…I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by Paul…The fruitful soil of Rome, when it receives the pure seed of the Lord, bears fruit an hundredfold…My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the Rock on which the church is built! This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten. This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails.” Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15:1-2 (A.D. 375).

The flood is the sea of error and opinion that exists outside The Chair of Peter, which is the Ark of Infallible guidance.
There were many who sneered at Noah's Ark, right up to moment the doors of the Ark were closed.

Genisis 6:21 "As for you, take for yourself some of all food which is edible, and gather it to yourself; and it shall be for food for you and for them."

" Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him, Feed my sheep."

Just as God commanded Noah to feed His animals so Peter is also told to feed His Flock.

[Haruo]

Okay, Matto, you've convinced me... the Pope would look much more patriarchal if he'd let his beard grow unmolested. Maybe then the dove would land on his hand instead of flying off.

[Matto]

[Dave Roberts]

Of course, the picture is not of the dove coming aboard the first time but of the dove returning with an olive branch in its beak.

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

Oh, and by the way, since Ed reminds me that I often bring up United Methodists, we use four standards on which we base our understanding of the faith. They are Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience with Scripture as the primary source. Matto you almost always refer to "tradition" it seems to me in looking for truth. My opinion (doubtless different from yours) is that tradition has to be judged by scripture, it has to be confirmed by reason, and it has to stand up to the test of experience.

Protestants deemed that the tradition of Papal infallibility neither stood up to the test of the Scriptures nor certainly to their experience of the behavior of the Popes during the time of the Reformation. So Reason told them that the Tradition was in need of updating to match the Experience of Christians.

We won't end up agreeing on any of this because we are approaching Christianity from fundamentally different approaches. So you should neither be surprised or discouraged that you can't convince a Protestant Christian to become a Roman Catholic based on arguments that make a good deal of sense to you a Roman Catholic because your world view is very different than ours.

IMHO, the Way which leads to life, walking in faith in Jesus Christ, does not include the requirement of believing in a certain Church polity. So believe as you will about the Bishop of Rome, it doesn't mean I think you less a Christian because I believe Episcopal polity does not require a Presiding Bishop or one single Bishop to be head of the Church.

Now if you can figure out how I was convinced to become a United Methodist when I was a life long Baptist you might have a better handle on what I find convincing. But that is a whole other long thread that you (and all our Baptist friends here) might not want to be bothered with.

[Matto]

[Matto]

[Matto]

[Matto]

Protestantism is a do it yourself religion. Just pick up a Bible and then construct a theology on your opinion of what it means.
God and Truth have no hand in it's construction, they all have human founders.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Matto]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Matto]

[Matto]

[Tim Bonney]