Cake bakers and florists

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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Rvaughn » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:22 am

At least two Baptist groups are included in amicus filings in Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission. One might guess that they take opposite positions.

Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty

Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Jon Estes » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:28 pm

When my father in law - in his own business - didn't want to do a job (for whatever reason) he simply priced the job at a point that if they took it, it would pay him for the inconvenience.

I'm good with charging whatever I want for a custom cake for whatever reason I desire. Would that be an acceptable out or do you want the government to regulate your cake costs?
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby JE Pettibone » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:09 pm

Jon Estes wrote:When my father in law - in his own business - didn't want to do a job (for whatever reason) he simply priced the job at a point that if they took it, it would pay him for the inconvenience.

I'm good with charging whatever I want for a custom cake for whatever reason I desire.


Ed: Jon, i think that by doing so you would be opening yourself to charges of illegal discrimination. And even if the customer agreed to you price and you provided the cake or whatever you would be eliminating a defense based on of a violation of your religious belief.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:53 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: Jon, i think that by doing so you would be opening yourself to charges of illegal discrimination. And even if the customer agreed to you price and you provided the cake or whatever you would be eliminating a defense based on of a violation of your religious belief.


I think you are right about that Ed. It could simply look like the baker was then trying to cheat someone they don’t agree with.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Jon Estes » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:31 am

JE Pettibone wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:When my father in law - in his own business - didn't want to do a job (for whatever reason) he simply priced the job at a point that if they took it, it would pay him for the inconvenience.

I'm good with charging whatever I want for a custom cake for whatever reason I desire.


Ed: Jon, i think that by doing so you would be opening yourself to charges of illegal discrimination. And even if the customer agreed to you price and you provided the cake or whatever you would be eliminating a defense based on of a violation of your religious belief.


Probably but the question is... Can the USG set the prices I must charge, as a private business, for a specific event?

If they can --- who then owns and operates the business? Sounds like the government would.

If I want to run myself out of business, do I not have the right as a citizen - business owner - to do just that.

How long would it be till they demand the Christian citizen must do business with (buy goods from) those they prefer not to? Sounds very socialistic to me.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:31 am

Tim Bonney wrote:The most common answer I get is, “go to another cake baker.” For folks who live in big cities, that really easy. For a lot of people in small town America, not so easy. I know people in Nebraska that would have to drive 50 miles or more one way to the next baker for a cake.
I'm not particularly sympathetic to that argument. What if there is no cake baker at all where you live? Then you've got to drive 50 miles anyway. As someone who lives in a rural area, it is a matter of choice that yields certain benefits and comes with certain disadvantages.
Jon Estes wrote:When my father in law - in his own business - didn't want to do a job (for whatever reason) he simply priced the job at a point that if they took it, it would pay him for the inconvenience.

I'm good with charging whatever I want for a custom cake for whatever reason I desire. Would that be an acceptable out or do you want the government to regulate your cake costs?
Not sure what your father-in-law did, but that is pretty standard in contracting. When I used to do remodeling work, I most often had to bid on jobs. If the job (or person you expect to work for) was problematic, you add extra in to cover it. It is is too high, they'll give the job to someone else. Nevertheless, I don't think that would be a workable in something like making wedding cakes. This is something that one would at the least get a reputation for sticking it to folks if you did that.

My wife used to decorate cakes for weddings. (Many years ago, long before anyone thought of same-sex marriage. Hers was a "word of mouth" business, in that she didn't have a business location but worked from home.) It is a quite intense operation that often brings about an intimate working relationship -- usually with the bride and her mother, but sometimes with someone else who is running the wedding. It's not like you just bake some cakes and put some icing on them. Lots of planning up front. Unless it is a very simple cake, you also can do only part of the work ahead of time, then transport that to the wedding venue where the tiers are put together and decorating is finished. She decided the headache wasn't worth it. (I hated it, too.)
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby JE Pettibone » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:40 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
JE Pettibone wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:When my father in law - in his own business - didn't want to do a job (for whatever reason) he simply priced the job at a point that if they took it, it would pay him for the inconvenience.

I'm good with charging whatever I want for a custom cake for whatever reason I desire.


Ed: Jon, i think that by doing so you would be opening yourself to charges of illegal discrimination. And even if the customer agreed to you price and you provided the cake or whatever you would be eliminating a defense based on of a violation of your religious belief.


Probably but the question is... Can the USG set the prices I must charge, as a private business, for a specific event?

If they can --- who then owns and operates the business? Sounds like the government would.

If I want to run myself out of business, do I not have the right as a citizen - business owner - to do just that.

How long would it be till they demand the Christian citizen must do business with (buy goods from) those they prefer not to? Sounds very socialistic to me.


Ed: No Joh that is not the question, If you where sued for discrimination, the government would not set a price for your labors but the judge would set the amount of your fine if you where found guilty.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:17 pm

If you've got the time and interest, here is a transcription of the oral arguments in Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission.

Here is an interesting exchange, that reveals something I have not heard mentioned in any of the reporting. At the time of the incident involved in the Masterpiece Cakeshop case, same-sex marriage was not legal in Colorado. (Apparently the two individuals had been married in Massachusetts.)

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Does it make a difference, was -- was same-sex marriage permitted in Colorado at the time of these events?
MR. YARGER: It was not, Your Honor.
CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Does that make a difference?
MR. YARGER: I don't think it does, Your Honor.

JUSTICE GINSBURG: Would Colorado be required to give full faith and credit to the Massachusetts marriage?
MR. YARGER: Well, it certainly would today, Your Honor.
JUSTICE ALITO: But it wouldn't at the time.
MR. YARGER: No, it wouldn't.
JUSTICE ALITO: It did not at the time. This is very odd. We're thinking about this case as it might play out in 2017, soon to be 2018, but this took place in 2012. So if Craig and Mullins had gone to a state office and said we want a marriage license, they would not have been accommodated. If they said: Well, we want you to recognize our Massachusetts marriage, the state would say: No, we won't accommodate that. Well, we want a civil union. Well, we won't accommodate that either. And yet when he goes to this bake shop and he says I want a wedding cake, and the baker says, no, I won't do it, in part because same-sex marriage was not allowed in Colorado at the time, he's created a grave wrong. How does that all that fit together?
MR. YARGER: Well, Your Honor, again, it -- it -- the decision by this bakery was it wouldn't sell any product -­
JUSTICE ALITO: No, that's not right, Mr. Yarger. It is a disturbing feature of your brief because this case was decided on summary judgment, and, therefore, you have to view the facts in the light most favorable to Mr. Phillips. And the only thing he admitted and what was said in the undisputed -- the list of undisputed facts was he would not create -- he was very careful to use the word "create." Is that wrong?
MR. YARGER: That's not incorrect, Your Honor.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Haruo » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:20 am

Rvaughn wrote:Here is an interesting exchange, that reveals something I have not heard mentioned in any of the reporting. At the time of the incident involved in the Masterpiece Cakeshop case, same-sex marriage was not legal in Colorado. (Apparently the two individuals had been married in Massachusetts.)

Interesting indeed.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Jon Estes » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:00 am

JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: No Joh that is not the question, If you where sued for discrimination, the government would not set a price for your labors but the judge would set the amount of your fine if you where found guilty.



No Ed - I should be able to charge for a specialty work what I want. The business owner does not have to be forced to do the work - not should they.

Specialty cake price right now is 1000.00 instead of 100. I don't have time to do it or wish to... But am willing to work overtime - spend more time away from my family to do the work but it will cost you.

I'm out because I am on holiday in Italy. return to Dubai late the 20th.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Haruo » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:04 am

A thousand bucks sounds like a pretty cheap soul.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Jon Estes » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:03 pm

Haruo wrote:A thousand bucks sounds like a pretty cheap soul.


The point was not the specific amount - but I think you are smart enough to have gotten that. - shrug
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby JE Pettibone » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:57 am

Jon Estes wrote:
JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: No Joh that is not the question, If you where sued for discrimination, the government would not set a price for your labors but the judge would set the amount of your fine if you where found guilty.



No Ed - I should be able to charge for a specialty work what I want. The business owner does not have to be forced to do the work - not should they.

Specialty cake price right now is 1000.00 instead of 100. I don't have time to do it or wish to... But am willing to work overtime - spend more time away from my family to do the work but it will cost you.

I'm out because I am on holiday in Italy. return to Dubai late the 20th.


Ed: Jon. read my post again, I did not say that you should not be able to charge what you want. Note the phrase "if you where sued for discrimination". It has nothing to do with the Government setting a price. If you are sued for discrimination you must prove you have not discriminated. BTW, If you read back through my post you will find I have consistently argued that Individuals whose trade and/or profession require special artistic aptitude should be free to work for whom they please.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:28 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: Jon. read my post again, I did not say that you should not be able to charge what you want. Note the phrase "if you where sued for discrimination". It has nothing to do with the Government setting a price. If you are sued for discrimination you must prove you have not discriminated. BTW, If you read back through my post you will find I have consistently argued that Individuals whose trade and/or profession require special artistic aptitude should be free to work for whom they please.


Ed, I think you have a good argument about the price.

It is one thing to say that you won't provide a product to certain people (agree or disagree with that. Its a different argument) but it is another thing to say I'll provide customer A and customer B with the same designer product. But I'll charge customer B more than customer A for the same product because I don't like him, agree with his lifestyle whatever. I think that could get you brought up on price gouging a customer.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby William Thornton » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:31 pm

I don't think changing the price for various customers is illegal unless there are discrimination or gouging laws. If there is a discrimination law then raising the price would run afoul of that if the basis for raising the price is race or gender or whatever protected class.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:36 pm

William Thornton wrote:I don't think changing the price for various customers is illegal unless there are discrimination or gouging laws. If there is a discrimination law then raising the price would run afoul of that if the basis for raising the price is race or gender or whatever protected class.


Learned something new William. I assumed price gouging was illegal everywhere. But, it may not be.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby William Thornton » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:50 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
William Thornton wrote:I don't think changing the price for various customers is illegal unless there are discrimination or gouging laws. If there is a discrimination law then raising the price would run afoul of that if the basis for raising the price is race or gender or whatever protected class.


Learned something new William. I assumed price gouging was illegal everywhere. But, it may not be.


Ever price airline tickets? Problem with defining it...and should some bureaucrat be in charge of pricing? I sell some stuff out of my basement. On some the price is typical retail markup, maybe double my cost. On some the price is 20x my cost. A price agreeable to both buyer and seller can't be gouging. I don't think there are gouging laws except post disaster and then I don't know if there are successful prosecutions.

My view is bake the cake, sell the flowers, a customer is a customer but I can see the special artistic, creative element.
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