Cake bakers and florists

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Cake bakers and florists

Postby William Thornton » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:29 pm

Keith wrote: "The fact that this rare and minor circumstance has been brought to national attention just shows how legalistic some people have gotten in the Religious Right. I know of no lawsuits on the part of cake-rejected LBGT couples - just invention of issues to moralize on. Maybe you could point some such lawsuits out. But if either of parties would employ the golden rule, there would not be an issue."

Unless he has some strange view of the prominent cases against the florist and baker, I'm puzzled about the above.

The florist is being sued by a friend whom she has had a good relationship for years. The Seattle Times lets her tell her own story here.
She wrote:
I'm not ashamed of that[her religious views on gay marriage which led her to decline the wedding floral job], but it was a painful thing to try to explain to someone I cared about — one of the hardest things I’ve ever done in my life. But Rob assured me he understood. And I suggested three other nearby florists I knew would do an excellent job for this celebration that meant so much to him. We seemed to part as friends. But then I was sued.


The idea was to break the florist, which would have been easily done. Small businesses don't budget for expensive legal defenses.

The baker calmly declined the cake job and offered other bakers who would take it. Hardly a case of the religious right inventing a case.

My inclination would be to take the money, bake the cake and arrange the flowers. This is a "minor circumstance" to the retired millionaire rocket scientist but not to the florist or baker. I'd like to think that a sensible SCOTUS would make some accommodation for religious views that lead to some occupations declining gay wedding tasks. It's being framed as an artisan, talent thing. The guy who sells shoes should sell to all. A Jewish cake baker shouldn't be forced by gummit with guns to bake a Nazi cake. This could get complicated. As for clergy, to my knowledge no clergy has ever been forced to perform a wedding ceremony.

Keith should be sure all militant gays read his advice on the Golden Rule.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Haruo » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:59 pm

William Thornton wrote:Keith wrote: "The fact that this rare and minor circumstance has been brought to national attention just shows how legalistic some people have gotten in the Religious Right. I know of no lawsuits on the part of cake-rejected LBGT couples - just invention of issues to moralize on. Maybe you could point some such lawsuits out. But if either of parties would employ the golden rule, there would not be an issue."

Unless he has some strange view of the prominent cases against the florist and baker, I'm puzzled about the above.

The florist is being sued by a friend whom she has had a good relationship for years. The Seattle Times lets her tell her own story here.
She wrote:
I'm not ashamed of that[her religious views on gay marriage which led her to decline the wedding floral job], but it was a painful thing to try to explain to someone I cared about — one of the hardest things I’ve ever done in my life. But Rob assured me he understood. And I suggested three other nearby florists I knew would do an excellent job for this celebration that meant so much to him. We seemed to part as friends. But then I was sued.


The idea was to break the florist, which would have been easily done. Small businesses don't budget for expensive legal defenses.

The baker calmly declined the cake job and offered other bakers who would take it. Hardly a case of the religious right inventing a case.

My inclination would be to take the money, bake the cake and arrange the flowers. This is a "minor circumstance" to the retired millionaire rocket scientist but not to the florist or baker. I'd like to think that a sensible SCOTUS would make some accommodation for religious views that lead to some occupations declining gay wedding tasks. It's being framed as an artisan, talent thing. The guy who sells shoes should sell to all. A Jewish cake baker shouldn't be forced by gummit with guns to bake a Nazi cake. This could get complicated. As for clergy, to my knowledge no clergy has ever been forced to perform a wedding ceremony.

Keith should be sure all militant gays read his advice on the Golden Rule.

I find it hard to wrap my mind around the Christian shabbos goy moral system that sees sin in baking a cake but sinlessness in referring the gay customer to someone else to do it.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby KeithE » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:17 am

William Thornton wrote:Keith wrote: "The fact that this rare and minor circumstance has been brought to national attention just shows how legalistic some people have gotten in the Religious Right. I know of no lawsuits on the part of cake-rejected LBGT couples - just invention of issues to moralize on. Maybe you could point some such lawsuits out. But if either of parties would employ the golden rule, there would not be an issue."

Unless he has some strange view of the prominent cases against the florist and baker, I'm puzzled about the above.

The florist is being sued by a friend whom she has had a good relationship for years. The Seattle Times lets her tell her own story here.
She wrote:
I'm not ashamed of that[her religious views on gay marriage which led her to decline the wedding floral job], but it was a painful thing to try to explain to someone I cared about — one of the hardest things I’ve ever done in my life. But Rob assured me he understood. And I suggested three other nearby florists I knew would do an excellent job for this celebration that meant so much to him. We seemed to part as friends. But then I was sued.


The idea was to break the florist, which would have been easily done. Small businesses don't budget for expensive legal defenses.

The baker calmly declined the cake job and offered other bakers who would take it. Hardly a case of the religious right inventing a case.

My inclination would be to take the money, bake the cake and arrange the flowers. This is a "minor circumstance" to the retired millionaire rocket scientist but not to the florist or baker. I'd like to think that a sensible SCOTUS would make some accommodation for religious views that lead to some occupations declining gay wedding tasks. It's being framed as an artisan, talent thing. The guy who sells shoes should sell to all. A Jewish cake baker shouldn't be forced by gummit with guns to bake a Nazi cake. This could get complicated. As for clergy, to my knowledge no clergy has ever been forced to perform a wedding ceremony.

Keith should be sure all militant gays read his advice on the Golden Rule.


Thanks to rvaughn for pointing out a couple of actual judicial cases one of which has been ruled with a judgment of $135K. I would have fought for no judgment or fine against the cake maker. According to the Seattle Times article she gave the gay couple alternatives. The gay couple's lawsuit should never have happened if they were following the golden rule.

So I stand behind my view that if either the gay couple or the cake maker were following the golden rule, there would have been no lawsuit and only a minor discord. Jesus broke with the sabbath law overthrowing slavish obedience of religious minutia. Jesus modeled and Paul commanded that one put with with persecution (discrimination).

In jest I should ask William to “get over it” wrt the $135K judgment as he had said so often when anyone on BL points out the many flaws in this President. But if he wants to make this a cause celebre for SCOTUS consideration, he should go for it.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby William Thornton » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:30 am

It already is a cause celebre and so without my help.

If you read the florist and baker stories, what in them would not have either anti-gay marriage businesspeople following the golden rule?
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Rvaughn » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:58 am

William raises a good question in the OP (in addition to his last question), to which I add one I raised earlier. How do y'all feel about these?
Should a Jewish cake baker be forced by government rules to bake a Nazi cake.

Should a black baker have the discretion to refuse to decorate a cake that says "Congratulations on your installation as Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan"?
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Jim » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:54 pm

In all of this, there seems to be the strange insistence that the First Amendment applies to all entities regarding religion and speech. The First only indicates what GOVERNMENT cannot do vis-a-vis religion and speech. Private entities—practically across the board regarding ALL activities—are not susceptible to the constraints of this amendment. For this reason, employers can require certain constraints such as regarding clothing worn, acceptable speech on any subject, non-use of drugs (even for religious purposes), uniforms (as at McDonald's), tattoos (not allowed a while back for state-park workers in Ky. if visible to the public), etc., whether those affected like it or not. The Court's Hobby-Lobby decision is instructive. The government will do well to stay out of businesses like those CREATING goods or services on the basis of their religious beliefs. Citizens can decide which businesses to support on the basis of their religion-stances (both individuals and businesses) and not on the basis of the First Amendment, which has only to do with what government cannot do.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby KeithE » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:07 pm

William Thornton wrote:It already is a cause celebre and so without my help.

If you read the florist and baker stories, what in them would not have either anti-gay marriage businesspeople following the golden rule?


Sorry I have not responded until now - been out of town until late last night and otherwise occupied and busy most of this afternoon (bridge). With all the other more important issues out there I choose to write about the travesty involved in the tax bill this morning.

This cake maker/florist issue is not much a cause to be worried about due to the limited number of people involved and the grievousness to the people involved. Both sides should show a willingness to just accept what has happened to them - the discrimination same sex couples experience should be taken in stride and the worry the cake maker/florist may have that they are partaking in some sort of sin should be set aside (whether or not they are motivated by the golden rule or just common sense in avoiding discord). If either side acts as an adult, there would be no problem.

I am not impressed with religious legalism and/or grandstanding or with overly sensitive marriage partners especially when seeking compensation in $$s.

I am impressed by the court argument in the Barronelle Stutzman florist case rvaughn brought up:
But the court held that her floral arrangements do not constitute protected free speech, and that providing flowers to a same-sex wedding would not serve as an endorsement of same-sex marriage.

“As Stutzman acknowledged at deposition, providing flowers for a wedding between Muslims would not necessarily constitute an endorsement of Islam, nor would providing flowers for an atheist couple endorse atheism,” the opinion said.


But I also think (as I have mentioned several times already) that same-sex couples should just move on to another more willing service provider.

Now if the same-sex couple wanted some depiction of a homosexual sex act on the cake or somehow in the flower arrangement, then I think the cakemaker/florist would have a case. This is like the case {slightly augmented for clarity} brought up about
Should a Jewish cake baker be forced by government rules to bake a Nazi cake {with a Nazi symbol}


Likewise a minister that is asked and refuses to perform a same-sex marriage against his principles should not be subject to claims of discrimination since s(he) is an integral/necessary part of the ceremony; couple should simply find another minister that sees the value of a same-sex marriage, which I think the couple would want anyway.

These are my opinions at this time; you can have your own.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:42 pm

I get what William is saying about the Nazi symbol on a cake. But wedding cakes most of the time are identical for same sex couples or traditional couples. Seldom do wedding cakes I see at receptions have words on them or symbols on them. They are just a nice cake with white icing. It is pretty tough to come up with much of a real objection to baking a cake based on use if the cake looks like every other wedding cake you make for any other couple.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby KeithE » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:50 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:I get what William is saying about the Nazi symbol on a cake. But wedding cakes most of the time are identical for same sex couples or traditional couples. Seldom do wedding cakes I see at receptions have words on them or symbols on them. They are just a nice cake with white icing. It is pretty tough to come up with much of a real objection to baking a cake based on use if the cake looks like every other wedding cake you make for any other couple.

That’s true. I only brought up the rare-if-ever idea of a Nazi symbol or sex act depiction to clarify a point that the cake maker or florist need adjust their routine product in any way to service most all same-sex marriages.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:57 pm

KeithE wrote:That’s true. I only brought up the rare-if-ever idea of a Nazi symbol or sex act depiction to clarify a point that the cake maker or florist need adjust their routine product in any way to service most all same-sex marriages.


I guess where I struggle to compare things here is that being a Nazi is an ideology. Being LGBTQ is an identity, at least for many many people who claim the label. So how that fits into a religious freedom perspective is really difficult to parse out.

So you might have the florist who thinks someone chose to be gay and so, their life choices are something they can't support while the gay person feels similar to if you told someone that you couldn't serve them because they are black, or Latino. One is choice and the other is identity. And how far does the religious right not to serve someone based on perceived choice go?

Can a florist or cake baker decide not to bake a cake for divorced couples if they don't believe in divorce? Mixed race couples? etc.

How far should a business be able to go in chosing to serve the parts of the public who are only like them or agree with them??
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Haruo » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:29 pm

Actually, wedding cakes often have a little statuary on top, depicting a courting,
Image
dancing,
Image
or kissing couple.
Image
One of the couple is usually obviously male, the other obviously female, though the obviousness is superficial; rarely do their genitalia show.

Occasionally the couple is obviously not even human. I didn't know ursines went in for lavish nuptials...
Image
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:29 pm

KeithE wrote:I am impressed by the court argument in the Barronelle Stutzman florist case rvaughn brought up:
But the court held that her floral arrangements do not constitute protected free speech, and that providing flowers to a same-sex wedding would not serve as an endorsement of same-sex marriage.

“As Stutzman acknowledged at deposition, providing flowers for a wedding between Muslims would not necessarily constitute an endorsement of Islam, nor would providing flowers for an atheist couple endorse atheism,” the opinion said.
.
The Washington State Supreme Court apparently thought it was an impressive argument as well. To me it sounds more like that if the state thinks your religious views are inconsistent then they and not you should decide what they should be.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Rvaughn » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:23 pm

According to this report, the Supreme Court will start hearing arguments in one of "cake baking" cases tomorrow.
Supreme Court wedding cake case asks whether baking is protected speech
The supporters of the same-sex couple are careful to only speak of baking a cake, while the supporters of the baker are careful to speak of art and expression.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby KeithE » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:29 am

Rvaughn wrote:According to this report, the Supreme Court will start hearing arguments in one of "cake baking" cases tomorrow.
Supreme Court wedding cake case asks whether baking is protected speech
The supporters of the same-sex couple are careful to only speak of baking a cake, while the supporters of the baker are careful to speak of art and expression.

The supporters of same-sex marriage will also speak of the discrimination they feel. Will be interesting but hardly important (either side should just put up with it).
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I was on air with Rick Burgess this morning

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:37 pm

The keynote speaker for the Bama Baptists this year in Huntsville. HE DID NOT KNOW WHO GEORGE W. TRUETT WAS. he interrupted me several times in a chat about what was supposed to be cakes but I engineered, or attempted to show his wider ignorance on church state issues.

I invited him to call Cherilynne Crowe a product of the FBC Ft Payne, Alabama after Bobby Welch( "We got liberals what we gonna do about it," pastors conference 1984 Wednesday afternoon SBC) left Vietnam and Bama; I invited Burgess to give this NE Bama product of Samford and Vanderbilt a call at bjconline.org.

A week before the senate election in Bama, Bama baps display their ignorance for the world!!!
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:16 am

As long as the church remains quiet when the government defines "church" as an organization instead of a people (which the Bible would support), the government is not able to see how Christian people cannot be something other than the church. Now they can be disobedient or obedient. I see the Bakers and Florists as wanting to be business people, obedient to God first.

Then again, the church needs to understand this also. It seems many don't.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:34 am

No surprises here:
Supreme Court seems divided in case of baker who refused to create a wedding cake for a same-sex couple
The Supreme Court seemed closely divided Tuesday over whether the First Amendment protects a Colorado baker from creating a wedding cake for a same-sex couple, with Justice Anthony M. Kennedy likely to cast the deciding vote.

Walter Olson summed up the day this way, which is probably pretty accurate:
In short, the Justices yesterday were not going for a knockout in the culture wars; they were intelligently disputing the dimensions of a fairly narrow strip of legal territory.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Neil Heath » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:15 pm

The narrow legal issue is this:

Did the cake baker violate Colorado state law by discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation? Not all states have the same laws, but Colorado includes that category on their books. I think he clearly did violate that law.

The Court's ruling will probably address a wider issue than that, but that's what started it all.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Haruo » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:46 pm

Neil Heath wrote:The narrow legal issue is this:

Did the cake baker violate Colorado state law by discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation? Not all states have the same laws, but Colorado includes that category on their books. I think he clearly did violate that law.

The Court's ruling will probably address a wider issue than that, but that's what started it all.
But state laws have to respect federally defined Constitutional rights...
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:33 pm

I don't think there is any question that Masterpiece Cakeshop violated Colorado's public accommodations law. The question SCOTUS has to resolve, it seems to me, is what Leland states. They will decide on the tension between that Colorado law and the Constitution's freedom of religion and expression.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:56 pm

This all leads to all kinds of murky discussions for the court as to when a business owner can refuse people service based on a personal religious view. Usually people have religions, businesses don’t.

I can think of all kinds of problems and cans of worms opened if they allow that the baker can refuse the couple that go far beyond the LGBT issue. Can a business owner really only have customers that match their religious values and still be a legitimate public business in the US? What mess do we open up if we allow for that? I hope the court thinks very carefully about how wide the effect of the ruling is.

What if the baker doesn’t think divorced people should remarry? What if they don’t think mixed race couples should marry?

The most common answer I get is, “go to another cake baker.” For folks who live in big cities, that really easy. For a lot of people in small town America, not so easy. I know people in Nebraska that would have to drive 50 miles or more one way to the next baker for a cake.

It’s a mess.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Haruo » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:10 am

The whole field is murky. I await with interest SCOTUS's take on how to enlighten things.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby William Thornton » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:41 am

Tim Bonney wrote:This all leads to all kinds of murky discussions for the court as to when a business owner can refuse people service based on a personal religious view. Usually people have religions, businesses don’t.

I can think of all kinds of problems and cans of worms opened if they allow that the baker can refuse the couple that go far beyond the LGBT issue. Can a business owner really only have customers that match their religious values and still be a legitimate public business in the US? What mess do we open up if we allow for that? I hope the court thinks very carefully about how wide the effect of the ruling is.

What if the baker doesn’t think divorced people should remarry? What if they don’t think mixed race couples should marry?

The most common answer I get is, “go to another cake baker.” For folks who live in big cities, that really easy. For a lot of people in small town America, not so easy. I know people in Nebraska that would have to drive 50 miles or more one way to the next baker for a cake.

It’s a mess.


The case is complicated. The baker sells anything to anyone but because of his Christian beliefs, does not create wedding cakes for gay couples. I'm looking for SCOTUS to craft some sort of religious liberty carve-out.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Rvaughn » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:33 am

Tim Bonney wrote:Usually people have religions, businesses don’t.
The SCOTUS ruling in the Hobby Lobby case would seem to contradict that. Forgot just how that was worded, but something about "closely-held" corporations or companies.

Regardless, I think in this current case before the court the business is basically Jack Phillips (a person who has a religion) doing-business-as Masterpiece Cakeshop.
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Re: Cake bakers and florists

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:15 am

Rvaughn wrote: The SCOTUS ruling in the Hobby Lobby case would seem to contradict that. Forgot just how that was worded, but something about "closely-held" corporations or companies.

Regardless, I think in this current case before the court the business is basically Jack Phillips (a person who has a religion) doing-business-as Masterpiece Cakeshop.


I think personally that it was a horrible ruling that opened up the current can of worms. But yes, they may be setting precedents for businesses having a religion. Frankly all that works against religious liberty in other ways.

If I have the right to marry but all persons who disagree with my right can refuse to offer me services which allow me to have what I have a legal right to have, then the right may end up being denied by lack of available opportunity. The cake is a test case as much as anything. But refusing to give a couple a wedding license or if a judge/magistrate refused to perform a legal wedding it turns into the denial of rights. I'm more worried about those kind of actions than the cake. The cake can be the camel's nose under the tent that lets religious rights for government officials or businesses trump my rights to follow my own religion.

It is the same tactic of eliminating the right to abortion (agree or disagree with abortion) by eliminating all funding and facilities that offer the service. If you have a right to do something but can't reasonably exercise that right, the right is really taken away.

Again, the cake just looks like a minor inconvenience until the precedent of the cake is used by someone else to deny someone their legal rights. That is where this really could go and why people are bothering to fight it.
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