Anthea Butler

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Anthea Butler

Postby Sandy » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:04 pm

This got posted earlier, in an obscure thread in New Baptist Covenant. It is worth reading, and fits this section much better.

http://religiondispatches.org/the-fire-this-time/
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby Haruo » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:38 am

Painful to read, doubtless painful to write. And perhaps overly optimistic.
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:47 pm

Sandy wrote:This got posted earlier, in an obscure thread in New Baptist Covenant. It is worth reading, and fits this section much better.

http://religiondispatches.org/the-fire-this-time/


As I read this, I am reminded of how far we have come in race relations and how far we have to go. It's a tough road still to get to the place where we actually accept and treat others with different racial backgrounds the same way that we want to be treated,
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby Jim » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:36 pm

Under this oppressive white racist society, Butler has managed a Ph. D and is an associate professor at a prestigious university, to which she adds a certain four-letter-word eloquence, as in this little hate-speech. She didn’t say much about the society but quite a lot about herself. Humbug! This is the kind of uber-racist warped professors to whom students are exposed every day, and that’s a shame.
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby KeithE » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:39 pm

I’m using this article (last paragraph) as an example of hopelessness in SS class tomorrow.
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby Haruo » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:43 am

I see some truth in what Anthea Butler wrote, and also some truth in what Jim Clark wrote.
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby JE Pettibone » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:47 am

KeithE wrote:I’m using this article (last paragraph) as an example of hopelessness in SS class tomorrow.


Ed: Keith, I hope you get to see this before you go to church this morning.

WE are on a trip up to NY to retrieve some things we had put in storage before we moved to Florida, and stopped early for the night some where in North Carolina since Trudy was getting quite tired. She is now sleeping soundly but after five hours of sleep I am wide awake. After we pulled in to this motel and Trudy had registered us we realized there was no restaurant in sight. The Desk clerk informed us of a place about two and a half miles down a side road that "hasGreat American food". She was right Sea Food & Bar-B-que . We got there around 7:30. There where about 60 customers, in all manner of dress, one couple I was betting to be a So Baptist Preacher and his wife where the only ones all 'dressed up '. Mostly Caucasian but one table of Blacks and One Asian family. Most every one seemed to be locals and knew each other as all most every one who came came in was greeted by several folk at different tables, Including a Black gentleman and his white wife who had a black child about 3 or 4 years old. The white waitress called the woman by name and commented on it having been a while since she had seen them and they had a short conversation, before the coupe ordered. Keep in mind this place is out in the country at least 2 miles from the interstate Highway. This sort of thing, makes the hassles I encountered as a Damm Yankee interrogationist, across the south-land, Alabama, Mississippi and Arkansas, in the 50's and 60's worthwhile.

BTW, I am not suggesting that all the race problems are gone nor am I suggesting that all the problems are in the South.
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby Jim » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:45 am

KeithE wrote:I’m using this article (last paragraph) as an example of hopelessness in SS class tomorrow.


Butler’s last sentence: I know better than to have hope in this nation to heal its original sin of slavery and racism.

Yeah…teach that to your SS class and explain how your ancestors created “original sin of slavery and racism,” two elements upon which all society throughout the world right into the 21st century (especially in Islamic nations) have established and maintained a semblance of order. Jesus Christ was a slave and no American citizen had anything to do with that. Douglass was a slave and it was all Abe Lincoln’s fault. You may enjoy laying this guilt trip on your SS folks but the betting here is that at least some of them are not gullible enough to squirm.
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby William Thornton » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:52 am

Yeah, I read the piece and it was worth reading but not worth much else. There's a large market in white guilt and minority advocacy for it and the day will never come when any benchmarks for racial progress will be accepted by the advocacy complex.
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby Sandy » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:48 am

Haruo wrote:I see some truth in what Anthea Butler wrote, and also some truth in what Jim Clark wrote.


Butler is writing from her own perspective. Jim is too, though he needs a lot more information to make such a personal judgment. Butler didn't have her Ph.D. handed to her, and it wasn't nearly as easy for her to achieve it as it would be for a white male such as himself. She earned it in spite of struggles, in fact, in the face of them, which gives much more weight to her words and credibility to her perspective.
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby KeithE » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:03 pm

Jim wrote:
KeithE wrote:I’m using this article (last paragraph) as an example of hopelessness in SS class tomorrow.


Butler’s last sentence: I know better than to have hope in this nation to heal its original sin of slavery and racism.

Yeah…teach that to your SS class and explain how your ancestors created “original sin of slavery and racism,” two elements upon which all society throughout the world right into the 21st century (especially in Islamic nations) have established and maintained a semblance of order. Jesus Christ was a slave and no American citizen had anything to do with that. Douglass was a slave and it was all Abe Lincoln’s fault. You may enjoy laying this guilt trip on your SS folks but the betting here is that at least some of them are not gullible enough to squirm.

The SS lesson was out of Romans 5:1-11. Faith results in peace and hope (vs. 1-2). I used this lady (Anthea Butler) as an example of one who has apparently lost hope. To the question What happens when you are hopeless? One (a black lady, physician's assistant) said 'you become depressed' and anther (white guy, a cost analyst) said ‘you give up”. There was no guilt laid on anyone - we were discussing hope.

Jesus Christ was a slave???
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby KeithE » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:18 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:
KeithE wrote:I’m using this article (last paragraph) as an example of hopelessness in SS class tomorrow.


Ed: Keith, I hope you get to see this before you go to church this morning.

WE are on a trip up to NY to retrieve some things we had put in storage before we moved to Florida, and stopped early for the night some where in North Carolina since Trudy was getting quite tired. She is now sleeping soundly but after five hours of sleep I am wide awake. After we pulled in to this motel and Trudy had registered us we realized there was no restaurant in sight. The Desk clerk informed us of a place about two and a half miles down a side road that "hasGreat American food". She was right Sea Food & Bar-B-que . We got there around 7:30. There where about 60 customers, in all manner of dress, one couple I was betting to be a So Baptist Preacher and his wife where the only ones all 'dressed up '. Mostly Caucasian but one table of Blacks and One Asian family. Most every one seemed to be locals and knew each other as all most every one who came came in was greeted by several folk at different tables, Including a Black gentleman and his white wife who had a black child about 3 or 4 years old. The white waitress called the woman by name and commented on it having been a while since she had seen them and they had a short conversation, before the coupe ordered. Keep in mind this place is out in the country at least 2 miles from the interstate Highway. This sort of thing, makes the hassles I encountered as a Damm Yankee interrogationist, across the south-land, Alabama, Mississippi and Arkansas, in the 50's and 60's worthwhile.

BTW, I am not suggesting that all the race problems are gone nor am I suggesting that all the problems are in the South.

Well OK Ed. Our SS class was about Peace and Hope, not race relations.

I know that blacks and whites intermingle a great deal these days. Was at a BBQ in Gadsen, AL myself and i seem to remember a mixture of blacks and whites (don’t recall any Asians). I have found the military and defense communities have integrated very well.

But like you, I know that racism still exists in certain situations - like on the streets in urban/suburban areas (be that Southern or Northern, perhaps less severe in the West). Haruo, can you comment on the West? I've been in the East a long time.
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby Dave Roberts » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:28 pm

William Thornton wrote:Yeah, I read the piece and it was worth reading but not worth much else. There's a large market in white guilt and minority advocacy for it and the day will never come when any benchmarks for racial progress will be accepted by the advocacy complex.


William, I guess my memories are too strong. I grew where any black student who wanted to finish high school had to ride a bus leaving home around 7 a.m. and returning around or after 5. The trip was 40 miles each way on mountain roads. There were, naturally, few who would ever graduate high school, but that was what the community wanted since blacks were expected to be domestic help cleaning homes and cooking for white folks, to be ditch diggers (by hand) or to be janitors or floor sweepers in industrial plants. School integration began in my first year at the local high school amid a real struggle for the community to admit that the old way was wrong in any way. I have to confess that those of us in the high school did not treat our new classmates very well. What I see in her article is that we still have not done well to become one people. I live in a black-majority county that is often attached to predominantly white counties to prevent the election of blacks. Yes, I still see a long way to go.
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby William Thornton » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:52 pm

Have you noticed any differences between 1960 and 2017?
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:15 am

William Thornton wrote:Have you noticed any differences between 1960 and 2017?

Yes, thanks be to God! However, I still see a lot of the old racial stereotypes being practiced, and in VA at least, black majority school systems are woefully underfunded and students often are underperforming. Of course the real culprit is poverty that is often the expression of systemic racism.
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby KeithE » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:50 am

Dave Roberts wrote:Of course the real culprit is poverty that is often the expression of systemic racism.

Bingo
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby Sandy » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:06 pm

http://religiondispatches.org/new-prri- ... ft-behind/

Anthea Butler wrote:White Protestants are also more willing to accept an authoritarian leader who breaks rules in order to fix what they believe is wrong with America. This nostalgia and the sense that America is failing and floundering dovetails well with white Protestant beliefs about persecution, the end times, and the decline of so called “civilization.”


Much of the "end times" armageddon calendaring of Evangelicals is nothing more than a bypass route around the principles taught and modeled by Jesus, and an open doorway to interpret Old Testament theocracy as white supremacy, founded on racial purity, though in the Old Testament, that applies to Jews, not Caucasians. But a quick leap to interpreting that New Testament prophecy switches from Jews to Christians as heirs to the covenant of Abraham through the blood of Christ in order to apply the supremacy, before switching back to Jews when it is necessary to do so for their role in the premillenial, dispensational view of the end times.

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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby Jim » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:49 pm

KeithE wrote:

Jesus Christ was a slave???


Of course, Jesus was a slave. Anyone living during his time in Palestine/Israel was a Roman citizen, approved alien artisan or official, or a Roman slave. Jesus acknowledged this when he told his followers to pay the tax required by the Romans and collected by the crooks. He didn't rush down to the nearest Roman IRS office to make a donation. The lashes he incurred at Pilate-the-guv's-hands were the same as those ordered by the massa, Simon Legree, on the cold, cold plantation ground. Just like a slave, he had to carry his own cross, at least as far as he could. Go back a ways (not necessarily all that far back) and the folks in this forum will discover a slave or three or the equivalents thereof in their own family chains, some in even worse torture and circumstances, up to and including starvation, something the emigrating Irish understood all too well.
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby KeithE » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:30 pm

Jim wrote:
KeithE wrote:

Jesus Christ was a slave???


Of course, Jesus was a slave. Anyone living during his time in Palestine/Israel was a Roman citizen, approved alien artisan or official, or a Roman slave. Jesus acknowledged this when he told his followers to pay the tax required by the Romans and collected by the crooks. He didn't rush down to the nearest Roman IRS office to make a donation. The lashes he incurred at Pilate-the-guv's-hands were the same as those ordered by the massa, Simon Legree, on the cold, cold plantation ground. Just like a slave, he had to carry his own cross, at least as far as he could. Go back a ways (not necessarily all that far back) and the folks in this forum will discover a slave or three or the equivalents thereof in their own family chains, some in even worse torture and circumstances, up to and including starvation, something the emigrating Irish understood all too well.

So anyone who pays taxes is a slave??
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby Sandy » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:30 pm

Dr. Butler is an emotionally strong, very intelligent, highly successful African American woman. She's a prophetic voice, the reaction to her words from some circles, not just here, confirm that. Usually it is those who achieve things like becoming a professor at an ivy league school in spite of all of the barriers, glass ceilings and obstacles who are most able to understand the suffering of those who face the same obstacles for the same reasons. Those of us who can't relate to the experience because our skin color and the lack of finding a similar experience among our ancestors can read her words. She, clearly, expects more than just reading, deservedly so.
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby JE Pettibone » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:46 pm

Ed: Dave, when you write "What I see in her article is that we still have not done well to become one people. I live in a black-majority county that is often attached to predominantly white counties to prevent the election of blacks. Yes, I still see a long way to go."

Who are the "we" that "still have not done well to become one people"?
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:58 am

JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: Dave, when you write "What I see in her article is that we still have not done well to become one people. I live in a black-majority county that is often attached to predominantly white counties to prevent the election of blacks. Yes, I still see a long way to go."

Who are the "we" that "still have not done well to become one people"?


All of us, White, Black, Asian, Middle Eastern, African. All our hyphenations say we are not proudly one national identity where these things no longer matter.
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby Sandy » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:16 am

Generally, the definition of becoming "one people," is usually some form of assimilation, meaning that those who are Caucasian, or European in origin are the dominant culture, and everyone else must conform to our cultural norms, which are defined as being "American values" or they are the cause of disunity. But most people that have an interest in becoming an American understands that involves the cultural diversity that we have, and the freedom of individual choice, along with the individual, constitutional protections we enjoy in the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. A person who wants to retain the use of their native tongue is not subversive, any more than a person who is Muslim with children who volunteer for military service. What happens, though, is that differences in cultural background lead to discrimination, which means that people who don't conform to Caucasian European background expectations, or cultural norms that have developed here through the years are unable to prosper the same way because they aren't offered the same level or extent of opportunity. Telling them that they just need to get in line and act like everyone else if they want the same opportunity is neither moral, nor is it a reflection of the claim of equal opportunity under law. That's just, simply put, bigotry, prejudice and good old fashioned hate. Then, when those who feel hated speak up, or push back, they are labelled as militants and treated even worse.
Last edited by Sandy on Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby Neil Heath » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:36 pm

Thanks, Sandy, for hitting the bullseye. I agree.
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Re: Anthea Butler

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:18 am

Sandy, you are exactly on target. Seeing the Muslim woman in a hajib should not brand her as "other" but should simply denote a religious preference just as a cross around the neck of a Christian should be a statement of his or her religious preference.
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