Baptists and the American Civil War (A New Website)

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: I do not yet have the final count on the number of people who attended this event however the I was impressed with the number who cane through in the first hours. There was a "Live" Union soldier in uniform. He had a full full field pack on display. He also had reproductions of two books detailing events of the was by soldiers from the area that had been published by the end of the 19th century. They are Corporal S, Klegg and his Pard by Wilbur F. Hinman, pub, by N.G. Hamilton Co. 1887 and Three Years in the Sixth Corps by George T. Stevens, S.R> Graves Publisher 1866. And a third book titled History of Saratoga County NY., with Illustrations 1609-1879 by Nathanial Bartlett Sylvester, Heart of the Lakes Publishers 1979

All three are sold on line. by a variety od sellers including Amazon for the first two.

I was especially delighted with the fact that there where about 8 local HS aged youth who are members of local Historical Society who where there to set up displays and to answer questions. They also conducted interviews with any one who would volunteer information on the history of the area.

Several area churches (read churches in Ballstown township) had displays of their history. Ballstown was named for A Rev. E. Ball who had purchased most of what today comprises the township from the Mohawk Indians. By all account Rev. Ball was deeply respected by the Indians as "good white man". He had done business with them for several years before the land purchase.

Contrary to what I wrote in the first post.I learned that indeed the Methodist did indeed have have a presence in Burnt Hills during the Civil war, in fact their first building here was erected in during 1664, the third year of the war.

The closest Presbyterian church during that time was at Charelton about 8 miles away. That is the church where Trudy did her candidateing sermon for the Burnt Hills Baptist Search committee.

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

Sounds like a great event to make history come alive.

Did you find that, like my Noonday Baptist Church, the church of that era was the hub of community order before there was law enforcement? I also found an arrogance among the Baptists that the Methodists and Presbyterians had an inferior faith.

I am interested if you are anywhere close to the Appalachian Trail which was the inland route for immigrants to settle the South. The wealthy land grant families came in from the coastal ports as the other major group settling the South. Then you have the slaves with their African religions and songs adding another dimension. Many of them virtually raised the white owner's children and were an intimate part of a family. Among the upland families childrearing was helped by family members of the parent and grandparent generation.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Thanks for the good info, Ed!

Do you have any takes on how former slaves were actually treated as they went North to freedom? I am given to understand they were not very well socially accepted even in that part of the country. They became part of the urban masses of immigrants, once more, used by industrialists wanting to get rich on cheap labor.

I also understand that most of the men who signed on for the Civil War were immigrants on condition they could not get their citizenship until they completed their duty. In some cases I am told they were conscripted against their will.

Remember, the south scared the beejezus out of the north in the first couple of years. Much of the difference was the fact southern soldiers were volunteers who viewed their soldiering as a fight against Northern aggression and use of their industrial might to take southern raw goods and turn them into expensive nails, etc. the South could scarcely afford. To many southerners the war was far more about independence from northern abuses while keeping the south agrarian and poor.

Just asking for your wisdom as one more acquainted with the ways of the North than me.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Gene when you write "I also understand that most of the men who signed on for the Civil War were immigrants on condition they could not get their citizenship until they completed their duty."

I would like to see you sources, I have come across nothing like that in the local histories that I have read.
Most of the Union soldiers from this this area where sons of families who had been well established in the area for many years. Those sons having been born in the U.S. wold have already been citizens. I also have "heard" of stories of unscrupulous mercenary recruiters. But I have seen no documented accounts of such.

As for how the slaves where treated as they came north it depends a lot on where and when, and by whom. Their depended very much on as as it does for many today on skills knowledge and abilities Farm hands where not highly valued no cotton or tobacco was raised up here. the seasonal differences required new thinking. On the other hand those who had been house servants and came with references could often find work in the homes is of wealthy industrialist and entrepreneurs. Also those who had been helpers to carpenters , blacksmiths, glaziers, and other trades men in the south could often set up shop in growing communities or at least enter a legitimate apprenticeship, sometimes at an advanced level requiring a shorter time to become Journeymen.

By today's standards no travel N/S or S/N was luxurious. Often the slaves walked traveling by night, so did white common men, and their families. It is true that in many struggling communities the slaves where viewed as a liability and where not welcomed with open arms, too often simply because they where not of European stock and had "different ways". Too often it was assumed that they where not Christians. But often a Black clergyman could draw a good crowd and a nice collection that helped he and his family and some friends move on north. Generally in small towns and villages any lack of hospitality was based in fear of completion for meager native resources. A poor white man with some brains and a bit of ambition could meld into the local societies more readily without a doubt.

And Gene when you say "Remember, the south scared the beejezus out of the north in the first couple of years. Much of the difference was the fact southern soldiers were volunteers who viewed their soldiering as a fight against Northern aggression and use of their industrial might to take southern raw goods and turn them into expensive nails, etc. the South could scarcely afford. To many southerners the war was far more about independence from northern abuses while keeping the south agrarian and poor."

I see it largely as southern paranoia, and wishful thinking. Had the south made as much concerted effort in developing industry prior to the War as they did in executing the war, and began to learn to do after the war, war would not have needed to happen . For example if Birmingham had been incorporated prior to 1861 rather than in 1871. I am sure you are familiar with how it became the Pittsburgh of the south. The south's legal whiskey industry would not have been dependent on the north for barrel hoops. Not only nails but horse shoes also. And the list goes on including heavy farm equipment. Why did southern genius not get in to the auto business in the early years rather than waiting for the Japanese, Koreans , Swedes and Germans to bring it to the south in recent history.

And Gene please don't come back with stories about the sweat shops in NYC and other northern cities. I have first hand stories from my mentors Henlee Barnette and Wayne Oates about their experiences as very young white teen school dropouts working in the Cotton mills of Kannapolis for a penance.

[Gene Scarborough]

[Ed Pettibone]

ED: Gene, I have no interest in re fighting the Civil war. The south attacked the north a war ensued the north won the south lost.

And Gene, when you write "The northern enlistment of masses of immigrants seems to be a historical fact. The basic thing which allowed the North to ultimately prevail seems to be more bodies available to absorb the lead coming from the first modern weapons used in a large conflict"
you need to acknowledge that Both the North and South recruited immigrants The North was more successful in doing so,

And Gene again you attempt to have me saying something I did not say, when you wrote "Your discription of the continued plight of a black former slave in the North sounds quite similar to current attitudes toward immigrants."

Ed: Where do you find me giving a "description of the plight of a black former slave in the North" ?

And when you G.S. say " At any rate, it doesn't sound like "arms wide open" to the person of color who ventured North. I would assume, at the least, there were opportunities there not to be had in the South, but it was limited."

Who ever said the North had "arms wide open" or suggested that opportunities where unlimited? Not I. I did note that many former slaves had skills knowledge and abilities that where readily marketable. I did fail to mention that in addition to white abolitionist the migrating former slaves where also assisted to some degree by blacks who had never been slaves and where already established in the north.

Ed: And Gene I did not suggest that the south had no industry prior to the war what I said was "Had the south made as much concerted effort in developing industry prior to the War as they did in executing the war, and began to learn to do after the war, war would not have needed to happen ."

Basically what I Here you saying is the South really screwed up in launching an attack they couldn't support.

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you and what we are discussing is most important to try and "learn a lesson" from our past failures.

You fail to pick up on my assertions that GREED is at the heart of the Civil War as well as current economic problems. Do you have any good insights there?

You can say what you please, but David had little chance against the mighty Goliath. Even so, he took some pebbles and a slingshot an put him away. In the truest sense, the South rebelled against what they perceived as Northern abuse. No matter what, the North did not have a clue about the "real South" any more than we had a real sense of them.

Our perception still is that it was a "War of Northern Agression." If you don't understand the perception, then you are lacking in any perception of "southerness." Will the last real southerner in Atlanta, pleas bring out the stars and bars!!!!

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: No Gene, I did not fail to pick up on your assertion that "GREED is at the heart of the Civil War as well as current economic problems." I chose to ignore it because it is much to general and over simplified to be meaningful.

And btw David had God's hand on him. Obviously the South did not.

And when you write "Our perception still is that it was a "War of Northern Agression." If you don't understand the perception, then you are lacking in any perception of "southerness." No Gene, I am well acquainted with old line perception of "southerness" it is call "Myopia". I am quite glad to see the south making more and more significant contribution to the Nation of the United States of America with a significant infusion of Yankee ingenuity and money.

And yes, here I am stretching the meaning of Yankee to include all states and territories outside of the Confederate states.

[Gene Scarborough]

Shame on you, Ed----generalizing instead of being picky specific!!!

Actually us Rebels love you Yankees coming south with pockets full of real estate money. Your nothern property is so inflated that you think us selling land and homes for twice their southern value is a bargain!!! It's all in the perception.

I looked at the same view of the Chesapeake near Anapolis, MD, when my daughter was there as we have here on the Pamlico. My little 50'X200' lot would cost a million there just for the dirt. Man, am I glad for the southern thrift on land values!!!

Now, if we could teach you to be courteous on the roads and patient in lines along with opening doors for anyone and smiling and speaking to everyone----then you would be even more welcome!!!!!!!!!!!

Once in a while a good "Y'all" would be appreciated!!!

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

I was funning with you and you want to take it serious----oh well!

Hate to tell you but the South is rising on far more than tourist dollars. Our growing cities like Charlotte / Atlanta / Raleigh-Durham / Greenville-Spartanburg have a decent location and plenty of amenities as well as a fairly new infrastructure generally working far better than older northern cities.

Just, come on down, brother and enjoy the fresh air and sunshine. I have been through upstate NY and found it lovely to look at as well. Just cold to live in during the winters and it gets just as hot there in the summer as down here!

[Stephen Fox]

Bruce: Enjoyed your piece in August Baps Today on Civil War and East Tennessee. My Fox Ancestry is from Knobs of Sevierville between there and Newport, thought my grandfather got on down to Waldens Creek, South of Pigeon Forge.
I was born in Newport and that East Tennessee Republic strain is strong in Fox legend of that time, going on down to my Grandfather's brother who was one of Nixon's ambassadors to China for Reynolds Aluminum

Of Course it shows in Oliver Buzz Thomas in pristine form from Maryville.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Ed Pettibone]

Here is an interesting site Re; present day chapel at Gettysburg. www.usccgettysburg.org/chapel.asp#

[Bruce Gourley]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Sorry, Ed, but Yankees still seem to think they are suprior. They make fun of our ways or talking---and somehow seem to think they can drive on frozen roads so much better.

The fools have yet to learn that our freeze is more often ice and NO ONE is an ace on ice, but they sure do love to speed past you and endanger everyone on the road.

I can easily live with Yankees----IF they learn to be nice and courteous!!!

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---thank you so much for the spelling correction. As I have said before----spellcheck does not work in my application and I guess it's just southern stupidity over spelling!

At any rate, you have not responded to my allegations of Yankee arrogance! Want to have a shooting competition over who is right???? I shoot a southern gun pretty accurately!!!! With squirrels I ask, "Heart or head?" to kill him dead!

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

Let's be friends and leave the shooting contest off. I like you and can't wait to meet face-to-face at some future CBF meeting. I already know we have been enjoying them in the same room in years past.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Stephen Fox]

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... ef=opinion