Bill Leonard says the Fundamentalists have Won

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Bill Leonard says the Fundamentalists have Won

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:47 pm

See his piece at Baptist global news.

Almost everything he says is a watershed moment. But this may be the biggest yet.

I have taken it up with the Cherokee Chronicle in Gaffney SC where my friend Tommy Martin--his sister finished Furman three years ahead of me and was in the Beta Club at Gaffney High when I was a freshman; as Tommy says Christianity as we know it is being eradicated by leftist zealots. I responded with an emphasis on the evils of fundamentalism.

Will let you know if my letter is published and how it plays in the stompin grounds
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Re: Bill Leonard says the Fundamentalists have Won

Postby KeithE » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:42 pm

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Re: Bill Leonard says the Fundamentalists have ALMOST Won

Postby Haruo » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:00 pm

Stephen missed the word "almost" in the title of the thread.
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Re: Bill Leonard says the Fundamentalists have Won

Postby KeithE » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:56 am



I've read it and it is spot-on correct.

Bill Leonard makes the same point I have been raising with regard to what constitutes “faith”. Is it a set of propositions that are non-negtiable (like what came up wrt our Killinger discussion)? Or is it a simple “following Jesus” (which in my mind translates into following who Jesus said should replace Him once He was gone, namely the Holy Spirit - read John 14-16 several spots in those chapters)?

The man born blind did not have to accept any theory of Christ, God or the universe, neither Monism or Idealism, nor any special form of theism. One thing only was required. Says Christ, ‘Let me anoint your eyes with clay and you go wash in the pool of Siloam.’ This he did. His faith worked. . . And finally, ‘He worshipped him.’ He rose from faith to faith under the guidance and inspiration of Christ and this is the experience of all who put their trust in Him.”


Leonard says things went wrong during:

(1) the late 19th century/early 20th with the over-reaction to 19th century biblical criticism (Princeton “inerrancy” Theology and The Fundamentals)
(2) the 70’s/80’s with the melding of right wing politics with evangelicalism (Moral Majority, Focus on the Family)
I’ll add (not mentioned in Leonard’s article):
(3) in 2016-today period with the melding of evangelicalism with Trumpism which is in reality a demagogued philosophy (Trump first, the rich second, disguised as "America First") which aims to exploit the 99%ers for the 1%ers just like what has happened in the Russian kleptocracy after Putin came to power. Even the demagogued view of “America First” has zero religious, spiritual, or biblical basis. It is merely a voting block (maybe 30%) tack-on and evangelicals have been used.

Leonard mentions Billy Graham in the post war period as partial corrective:
After World War II Billy Graham and other conservatives advanced “Neo-Evangelicalism,” attempting to rebrand evangelicals beyond fundamentalist diatribes and theological stereotypes. Results were mixed.


It is high time we return all of Christianity to a simple faith of repentance (like Graham’s message) and following Christ's teaching - a new orientation to life and not about assent to theological maxims and certainly not tied to Trumpism.

Let’s hope that the fundamentalists have not won!
Last edited by KeithE on Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Bill Leonard says the Fundamentalists have Won

Postby Haruo » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:10 pm

I'm for it, but don't see a way for US to "return ALL Christianity" to any prior or ideal future state. The Trinitarian doctrinaire stuff, I am convinced, was the outgrowth of various bishops fighting for the right to steer the Roman Empire their way.
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Re: Bill Leonard says the Fundamentalists have Won

Postby KeithE » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:27 pm

Haruo wrote:I'm for it, but don't see a way for US to "return ALL Christianity" to any prior or ideal future state. The Trinitarian doctrinaire stuff, I am convinced, was the outgrowth of various bishops fighting for the right to steer the Roman Empire their way.


Maybe there is no "ideal state" (past or future), but parts of Christianity we are way off course; other parts closer to the ideal, imo.

Tell me about your statement in red, if you have the time.
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Re: Bill Leonard says the Fundamentalists have Won

Postby Sandy » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:34 pm

KeithE wrote: It is high time we return all of Christianity to a simple faith of repentance (like Graham’s message) and following Christ's teaching - a new orientation to life and not about assent to theological maxims and certainly not tied to Trumpism.

Let’s hope that the fundamentalists have not won!


A simple faith of repentance and following Christ's teaching. I'll go along with that. It actually does exist in places.

"Trumpism" is the bullet shot through the foot of conservative Evangelicalism. I'd say that a simple faith of repentance and following Christ's teaching is the exact antithesis of Trumpism married to Evangelical Christianity.
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Re: Bill Leonard says the Fundamentalists have Won

Postby Jim » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:42 pm

KeithE wrote:
Haruo wrote:I'm for it, but don't see a way for US to "return ALL Christianity" to any prior or ideal future state. The Trinitarian doctrinaire stuff, I am convinced, was the outgrowth of various bishops fighting for the right to steer the Roman Empire their way.


Maybe there is no "ideal state" (past or future), but parts of Christianity we are way off course; other parts closer to the ideal, imo.

Tell me about your statement in red, if you have the time.

It's great sport to ridicule the evangelicals, among which you apparently consider yourself not to be, never mind the Great Commission. Political correctness is the new religion—anything goes, in other words. Another “religious” outfit that has sold out vis-a-vis common decency, not to mention biblical directions for living, is the Roman Catholic pedophile/homosexual/priest brigade now making news yet again as old, gray-bearded bishops/cardinals are doing the two-step to dodge responsibility for their venality. Meanwhile, the world looks to the pope for spiritual guidance. What a laugh!
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Re: Bill Leonard says the Fundamentalists have Won

Postby Haruo » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:48 pm

Keith, I wasn't talking about the doctrine of the Trinity, but rather about being doctrinaire about it. The sort of thing (standard in many orthodox circles) that leads to "we are Christians, you are not. Why not? Because you deny the doctrine of the Trinity" sort of thing. I think Trinitarianism is clearly post-Biblical, and in its current official form(s) isn't a whole lot older than Nicaea. Let alone filioque!
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Re: Bill Leonard says the Fundamentalists have Won

Postby KeithE » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:52 am

KeithE wrote:
Haruo wrote:I'm for it, but don't see a way for US to "return ALL Christianity" to any prior or ideal future state. The Trinitarian doctrinaire stuff, I am convinced, was the outgrowth of various bishops fighting for the right to steer the Roman Empire their way.


Maybe there is no "ideal state" (past or future), but parts of Christianity we are way off course; other parts closer to the ideal, imo.

Tell me about your statement in red, if you have the time.


Haruo wrote:Keith, I wasn't talking about the doctrine of the Trinity, but rather about being doctrinaire about it. The sort of thing (standard in many orthodox circles) that leads to "we are Christians, you are not. Why not? Because you deny the doctrine of the Trinity" sort of thing. I think Trinitarianism is clearly post-Biblical, and in its current official form(s) isn't a whole lot older than Nicaea. Let alone filioque!

Understand and we are same page on the inadvisability of being doctrinaire.

I was not tying to pin you down, but (if you had time) asking about the history you referred to in red above.

Your reference to filioque controversy fills that itch. Thanks. A lot there I was unaware of.

Haven't read it all, but noticed the statement near the end (given in part):

The Filioque was discussed at the 62nd meeting of the North American Orthodox–Catholic Theological Consultation, in 2002. In October 2003, the Consultation issued an agreed statement, The Filioque: a Church-dividing issue?, which provides an extensive review of Scripture, history, and theology.[38] The recommendations include:

1. That all involved in such dialogue expressly recognize the limitations of our ability to make definitive assertions about the inner life of God.
2. That, in the future, because of the progress in mutual understanding that has come about in recent decades, Orthodox and Catholics refrain from labeling as heretical the traditions of the other side on the subject of the procession of the Holy Spirit.
3. ...


which has a helpful viewpoint urging restraint in labeling heresy.

It is not that theology is uninteresting, it is that theological points should not divide us (Christ pleaded for our unity- see John 17:21). I doubt that correctness of doctrine is what God grades on and given Matt 23 and the tenor of Christ’s interactions with people, it just may be that being doctrinaire (and heretic calling) may be a negative factor.
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Apropos of Filioque

Postby Haruo » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:47 pm

I just ran across this blog post (from a link in the FB group Liturgical Theology) and it made me think of this thread.

The names of God
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