Was the cabal of Adrian Rogers, McAteer, Pressler Extremist?

[Stephen Fox]

The Takeover was energized by Right wing extremism and Adrian Rogers was complicitous if not active at almost every stage of the game.

There is a small avalanche of material in the last couple months from Molly Worth, to the Balmer Bio of President Carter to the Steven Miller new work on Evangelical Right and the rise of Ronald Reagan--see links in Balmer/Marsh thread at Faith and Practice at this site.

And now here is a look at Pressler's contemporary and fellow traveler in Birch Society inspired denominational takeover, Mr. Otten of the Missouri synod.

http://usreligion.blogspot.com/2012/08/ ... ns-in.html

I'm not aware of a smoking gun memo between Pressler and Otten but would not be surprised if one pops up, not a strong familiarity between the Pressler and Koch brother's Father Fred, who was eaten up with Birch Society activism in Kansas in the 50s.

So lets be honest about the motivations and communities of recent Baptist History.

Words like Fundamentalism and Extremism have meaning.

[Sandy]

I don't see Paul Pressler's name anywhere in the review. You're making fantasy connections.

I suspect your comments got deleted because you don't dialogue, you don't respond to questions, and you post the same stacked reading list, and the same thing over and over and over and...........

[William Thornton]

Stephen, leave me and Sandy out of your posts. thanks.

[Sandy]

So lets be honest about the motivations and communities of recent Baptist History.

OK. Let's be honest. You dropped names, but made absolutely no case for a connection between Pressler and the Missouri Synod Lutherans. That's not honest.

[Sandy]

The Takeover was energized by Right wing extremism and Adrian Rogers was complicitous if not active at almost every stage of the game.

There is a small avalanche of material in the last couple months from Molly Worth, to the Balmer Bio of President Carter to the Steven Miller new work on Evangelical Right and the rise of Ronald Reagan--see links in Balmer/Marsh thread at Faith and Practice at this site.

So far, you're zero for a thousand on actual links to prove the connections you try to make through your name dropping campaign. Finding ulterior motives in key figures involved in the conservative resurgence isn't leading to any kind of real objective. Adrian Rogers was well aware of the doctrinal issues occurring in the SBC seminaries, and was also aware of his ability to inform and influence people from his position as pastor of one of its largest churches. The conservative resurgence was energized by evidence of "creeping liberalism" in the seminaries, and of particular issues that were coming to the surface. Maybe there was a right wing political element involved in it, though nothing you cite proves it, but the genuine concern of those involved in the resurgence movement was theological, not political. The resurgence leadership succeeded in shifting the direction of the convention by messenger participation on the floor, where other conservative movements in mainline denominations couldn't succeed because those kinds of decisions are all in the hands of their clergy. Their members have "voted" by their feet, moving their attendance into growing non-denominational evangelical congregations. The conservative resurgence prevented that from happening to the SBC.

As with all such organizations, the current SBC leadership is experiencing the same tendencies toward oligarchy that were so prevalent prior to 1979. But that's a different problem.

[Haruo]

How many of the leaders of the Conservative Takeover slash Fundamentalist Resurgence in the SBC were not ordained clergy? Sandy's latest post here seems to me to make it sound like they were laymen, not laypersons of course but laymen, but I'm not sure this is a valid notion. And how customary is it for an SBC church to cast split votes at the Convention?

[Sandy]

How many of the leaders of the Conservative Takeover slash Fundamentalist Resurgence in the SBC were not ordained clergy? Sandy's latest post here seems to me to make it sound like they were laymen, not laypersons of course but laymen, but I'm not sure this is a valid notion. And how customary is it for an SBC church to cast split votes at the Convention?

The two individuals who actually organized the movement were both laymen, or "laypersons". Paul Pressler was a lawyer, superior court judge and appeals court justice. Paige Patterson was an educational administrator, college president.

It is not unlikely that a majority of the messengers at any given SBC annual meeting are ordained. However, there is no requirement that a church elect its ordained ministers as messengers, and there are a substantial number of laypersons involved. The number of laypeople attending the SBC increased during the resurgence, as churches became more aware of what was transpiring, and those involved tended to elect their full compliment allowed.

Messengers must be elected by their church. And while I am sure there are cases where those who get nominated and elected do so because the congregation and the pastor know they will vote a particular way, and there are perhaps cases where pastors sit down with their messengers and give them a briefing on the convention issues that includes strong hints as to how they should vote, when it comes down to it, the ballot is in the messenger's hands. That's not a practice that changed during the conservative resurgence, however, and the conservatives weren't the only ones who did that.

I've heard the complaints about pastors registering their children as messengers, and then collecting their ballots and casting those votes as well. I know that occurred prior to 1979 as well, and there is really not a rule against it. How prevalent that is now, or was during the resurgence, I don't know, and since there's no data on it, it's not a valid argument. How would you know, if you observed someone doing that, if they were voting conservative or moderate?

The other major difference is that Baptist churches call their own pastors, and set their own doctrine. Convention votes pertain to convention institutions and agencies. The seating rules pertain only to messengers that make up the convention over the two days of its existence. A single convention may not actually be representative of the perspective of a majority of the churches, since only about 10% of the churches send messengers in any given year, but over the course of a decade, about 80% of churches send messengers, depending on the geographic location.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Hauro I am not sure how to answer you question about how often messengers from a given church split there ballots on an vote. What I do know was that for each of the the Conventions I attended as a messenger no ome told me how to vote nor asked how I had voted. It is true thai on many votes you can see how any and all are voting because the vote is by a "Show of Ballots". The first time I was preparing to attended I asked my pastor how I should vote on a couple issues and he said vote you conscience.

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.salon.com/2014/05/18/the_eva ... ian_right/

For the extremism of Pressler, talk to Chandler Davidson of Rice University who has 100 pages on WA Criswell in Race and Class in Texas Politics.

For Pressler talk to Foy Valentine's former Son in law Lee Berg as I did in 1988 and Neal Rodgers. It was Rodgers who held the press conference with James Dunn in 88 in San Antonio at the 11 am hour of the Weds morn session to discuss the Baptist Laity pamphlet exposing Pressler and Patterson in cahoots with the Far Right; and who can forget Bill Moyer's question to Pressler about the Council for National Policy.

For Pressler's connections to Jesse Helms and the Bircher Albert Lee Smith see Joe Ferguson's chapter The Red White and Blue Bible in his book Hard Right, The Rise of Jesse Helms

Also see Ellen Rosenberg chapter on SBC Takeover and the Far Right.

Still looking fwd to having a BBQ sandwich with Thornton....Had good meal Saturday with the former pastor of the Lower Fairforest Baptist Church of Union, South Carolina. He has some good Roger Milliken Stories.

[William Thornton]

Stephen, who is the pastor you referenced from Lower Fairforest? I probably know him.

[Stephen Fox]

He was only there a a couple years in mid 80s or so. Steve Miller. Was good friend of Steve Lemons who was in the area for a while. I'm sure you know Union native Sally Nichols Atwater is running for State School Supe in S.C. I'm not sure where she stands on Common Core but I'm certain she's against it. Her daughter, also Sally Atwater is a Furman grad, 2012 I think.

[Stephen Fox]

www.nybooks.com makes a solid case that yes indeed they were extremists and morphed into the current GOP regime in Texas; and became a template for the Tea Party across the South. See how the Sam Brownback experience has destroyed Kansas. Watch Alabama with the reelection of SBC Deacon Gov Bentley to see if he and his pastor Rick Lance, Ex Dir of the Alsbom of Bama, learn anything from Powers insights.

[Stephen Fox]

I am Reading the book now. See my blog on CRiswell's convening power at foxofbama, A Dec 2014 entRy

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.cjr.org/fiftieth_anniversary ... p?page=all

Pressler's ancestry in the Oil Industry and the right wing Birch Society politics of Harris County Texas, shaped him to oppose Bill Moyers, James Dunn and their progressive evolution on race matters that almost certainly at one point was in the shadowy influence that forced Carlyle Marney to leave FBC Dallas in 56

[Sandy]

Time for this thread to disappear. The demagoguery and baseless statements are a crock of you know what.

[Sandy]

http://www.cjr.org/fiftieth_anniversary/caros_way.php?page=all

Pressler's ancestry in the Oil Industry and the right wing Birch Society politics of Harris County Texas, shaped him to oppose Bill Moyers, James Dunn and their progressive evolution on race matters that almost certainly at one point was in the shadowy influence that forced Carlyle Marney to leave FBC Dallas in 56

None of that is mentioned in the citation. For someone who claims to abhor demagoguery, Stephen, you're certainly a master of it here.

This thread is full of libel and slander, and it needs to disappear.

[Ed Pettibone]

http://www.cjr.org/fiftieth_anniversary/caros_way.php?page=all

Pressler's ancestry in the Oil Industry and the right wing Birch Society politics of Harris County Texas, shaped him to oppose Bill Moyers, James Dunn and their progressive evolution on race matters that almost certainly at one point was in the shadowy influence that forced Carlyle Marney to leave FBC Dallas in 56

None of that is mentioned in the citation. For someone who claims to abhor demagoguery, Stephen, you're certainly a master of it here.

This thread is full of libel and slander, and it needs to disappear.

Ed: Sandy where is the libel and slander you claim? When you say none of that is mentioned in the citation, note Steve has not claimed to quote the cited story he has reacted with his opinion. You are reacting with your opinion, how ever in my opinion you display far more demagoguery.

And Steve, while I am no fan of Pressler, I am interested in how you get to the conclusion that his ancestry in the oil industry had any thing to do with shaping him "to oppose Bill Moyers, James Dunn and their progressive evolution on race matters ".

[Sandy]

Stephen is placing names of individuals into entries with titles that have nothing to do with them in order to create the impression that there is some sort of association with them. The citations have nothing to do with the individuals who are named, either, but his intent is to create one. That's demagoguery.

It would be sort of like putting your name in a thread and posting an article about the Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan that doesn't ever mention you.

[Ed Pettibone]

Stephen is placing names of individuals into entries with titles that have nothing to do with them in order to create the impression that there is some sort of association with them. The citations have nothing to do with the individuals who are named, either, but his intent is to create one. That's demagoguery.

It would be sort of like putting your name in a thread and posting an article about the Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan that doesn't ever mention you.

Ed: Sorry sandy to me you your case is far too generalized, therefor not very strong. But then, you do seem read Fox with greater interest than I do.

[William Thornton]

Sandy is right. This is stephen's hobby horse crap nonsense.

[Sandy]

Ed: Sandy where is the libel and slander you claim? When you say none of that is mentioned in the citation, note Steve has not claimed to quote the cited story he has reacted with his opinion. You are reacting with your opinion, how ever in my opinion you display far more demagoguery.

And Steve, while I am no fan of Pressler, I am interested in how you get to the conclusion that his ancestry in the oil industry had any thing to do with shaping him "to oppose Bill Moyers, James Dunn and their progressive evolution on race matters ".

Well, first of all, Marney was pastor of FBC Austin in 1956, not Dallas. I don't even know what that reference is about and he doesn't bother to explain. And Ed, you pointed out the hit and run accusation related to the oil industry. It's just Stephen wanting to blacken Pressler, and none of it is anything more than his imagination.

[David Flick]

Ed: Sandy where is the libel and slander you claim? When you say none of that is mentioned in the citation, note Steve has not claimed to quote the cited story he has reacted with his opinion. You are reacting with your opinion, how ever in my opinion you display far more demagoguery.

And Steve, while I am no fan of Pressler, I am interested in how you get to the conclusion that his ancestry in the oil industry had any thing to do with shaping him "to oppose Bill Moyers, James Dunn and their progressive evolution on race matters ".

Well, first of all, Marney was pastor of FBC Austin in 1956, not Dallas. I don't even know what that reference is about and he doesn't bother to explain. And Ed, you pointed out the hit and run accusation related to the oil industry. It's just Stephen wanting to blacken Pressler, and none of it is anything more than his imagination.



Whatever else you want to say about Fox's interpretation of the Takeover, he couldn't further "blacken" Pressler's reputation even if he wanted to. Pressler blackened himself by his own conniving, deceptive actions. Ed is correct. Sandy is reacting with his opinion and display of demagoguery.

[Sandy]

Whatever else you want to say about Fox's interpretation of the Takeover, he couldn't further "blacken" Pressler's reputation even if he wanted to. Pressler blackened himself by his own conniving, deceptive actions. Ed is correct. Sandy is reacting with his opinion and display of demagoguery.

Baloney cheese on the accusation of demagoguery.

Pressler made his own record, and you can express an opinion of it in any way you please. But inventing things that he did, and blaming him for things that he didn't do is demagoguery, and it only sucks the credibility out of the rest of everything he posts here. The longer this thread is allowed to stand, the more it testifies to the fact that inaccuracy and invention are OK in attacks on the SBC's conservative resurgence.

[Ed Pettibone]

Whatever else you want to say about Fox's interpretation of the Takeover, he couldn't further "blacken" Pressler's reputation even if he wanted to. Pressler blackened himself by his own conniving, deceptive actions. Ed is correct. Sandy is reacting with his opinion and display of demagoguery.

Baloney cheese on the accusation of demagoguery.

Pressler made his own record, and you can express an opinion of it in any way you please. But inventing things that he did, and blaming him for things that he didn't do is demagoguery, and it only sucks the credibility out of the rest of everything he posts here. The longer this thread is allowed to stand, the more it testifies to the fact that inaccuracy and invention are OK in attacks on the SBC's conservative resurgence.

Ed: Pressler indeed made a record and titled it A Hill On Which To Die, it is a masterpiece of egotism. Inventing things that he did, and blaming him for things that he didn't do could be slander, but is not demagoguery. How ever when you claim with no specifics, that fox has invented things that and blamed Judge P. for things the judge didn't do and follow it up with a demand for fox to be censored and his post removed by the moderators of this site, that is demagoguery. If you believe you have a case you need to make it with verifiable evidence.

[Stephen Fox]

Sandy is correct about that.

If Sandy does the background reading he will see how thick Hariis County was over the years in Bircher and oil politics.. Ed can verify that Pressler says his ancestry was active in the Texas legislature and Pressler's father was a VP for Exxon oil. Chandler Davidson has reported on the way race and income division in Texas is a legacy of Criswell's. Bush 41 faced down the Bircher s in Harris County in 1966 and somehow Pressler split the difference over the years from his hardwiring in gthe Gary North crowd to becoming Bush 41 Ethics nominee.

Lee Berg, Foy Valentine's son in law, to Davidson, to Moyers to now Don Wilkey in Ex Gens over the years have reported on this cabal, so I'm not going solo on this. And the latest is Wuthnow's rough country with reviews in both nybooks.com and Christianity Today. Find a good library Sandy and see the Atwater memo there and how race morphed into abortion and other social issues Pressler and Jesse Hlems played in concert with Karl Rove over the years. I guess Harry Dent , Strom Thurmond's advisor and Nixon's southern strategist just got to be a trustee of Southern seminary cause he chaired the Billy Graham crusade in Columbia SC in 1980.

Thornton and Sandy are the ones starry eyed in all this.

Big Daddy Weaver, instead of taking shots at Ex Gens, could get off his throne in the CBF offices and enlist the cracker jacek historians at Baylor to get Moyers and Jimmy Allen and Hardy Clemons and Chandler Davidson in a room with Thomas Powers the nybooks reviewer. Go back and read Marsahll Frady's friend Scott Sherman in the link above on the Tex Regs and the 48 race. Roughly Moyers and Dunn and Marney saw the light on race LBJ torturously saw in the 60s. Pressler and Helms and Patterson played with the Birchers and White citizens council as long as they could, and then as, again Lee Atwater himself outlined, they saw the light and moved on to inneranncy ande abortion, and whatever else they could pull oout of Roger Ailes and Karl Rove's bag of tircks as they used issues first in SBC and other trial venues and then perfected them in S.C Presidentail primanry nd elsewhere. Read Rough Country, Read Joe Crespino of Emory. Read Scott Sherman closely, Read Moyers over the years in Foy Valentine's, now the Baugh's Christian Ethics Today. It's all there for any litereate person to see.